Hi Sparkle Tooth,
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you appear to have a much more serious problem than the oil pump drive.
There looks to be serious damage to the crankshaft end, in the critical area where the oil seal sits. You risk total engine destruction trying to run the engine with this damage.
If the scoring is not to deep the crank nose can be ground down by 5 thou and undersize seals are available to suit.
you will unfortunately have to strip the engine completely and remove the crankshaft, so that it can be sent to an engineering shop. If the the damage is deeper, the crank nose can be ground smaller and a sleeve fitted to bring it back to spec.
While stripping down , investigate if a hydraulic lock was responsible for the drive block being torn out of the cam nut.
(i.e. blocked crankshaft oilways and seized pressure relief valve).

Regards
Peg.

 

Hi, Very careful flow test every part of the oil system. That pump dead headed. The pump can create over 30,000+ pounds of pressure when oil flow is blocked. At this point we don’t know which side of pump flow was blocked. It’s possible problem is inside pump itself, in the check ball area. Something blocking flow to or past ball. Very carefully disassemble pump & look for blockage. In any case, the blockage must be found & corrected. If your problem is outside of the pump, Morgo would have fractured as well.

Is there a repair sleeve for crank snout & then use .020” “regrind” seal?
Don

 

Someone used a pipe wrench on the crank nose. You can see the rubber of the seal all around the nose as it gets cut up by those wrench marks . Start again unfortunately

 

Yes I found some strange things during the tear down to make me question the previous owners tactics. the scoring on the end of the crankshaft I think is over emphasized in the pics as it is barely perceptible to the eye. I will investigate further though.

 

Hi Sparkletooth,
Barely perceptible, in my mind for running against the seal at up to 100 turns a second, equals F*cked.
But if it is barely perceptible then there is a good chance that it will polish out with very fine (2000 grit +) emery.
The difficulty is that the crankshaft will need to be spinning to make sure you get an even circular polish. Trying to do it static will result in introducing flat spots on the crankshaft, making things worse instead of better.
As it is, there is the potential to destroy the oil seal rapidly and then starve the big ends of oil, with all of the explosive consequences.

The proper way is to remove the crankshaft and mount it in a lathe, but this is a lot of work and you need access to a lathe.
I wonder if you could get creative, maybe plugs out rear wheel in a starter roller set.
maybe, a motor fitted with a sprocket on the chain.
maybe, a large drill fitted with a socket on the alternator nut.
Maybe a crazy cyclist friend kickstarting like mad for an hour 😊

regards
Peg.

 

Holy Be-Jezus Batman !!!

 

As well as the oil route from feed side of pump to the pressure relief valve (which must be free to move), make sure there’s a clear passage from the scavenge side of the pump to the hose attachment.

Other than hydraulic lock, I suppose a possible cause is the drive peg somehow having a longer stroke than the pump.

 

Following this thread closely. I also picked up a heoplite pump after striking out finding a morgo. Haven’t finished the install yet but will triple check the pump.

When I got it I ran it through a cycle in an ultrasonic cleaner and blew out any potential swarf before assembly. I remember trying to cycle it on the bench and thinking something was wrong with the check valves, but haven’t revisited it yet. Almost like the bolt that holds in the ball is too long and prevents it lifting when fully screwed in. I’m day from home now but will check it this week.

Does the plunger pump oil if you cycle it in hand?

 

Don has posted a lot of information about checking oil pumps. It's easy to check it on the bench.

 

Its Winter Sparkle Tooth, what else is there to do? I know it looks daunting but from experience then rather than take the risk of a truly catastrophic and likely eye wateringly expensive failure, I would follow Pegs advice . You are probably faced with either spending your time plus the cost of some professional machine time and a few oilseals or worst case be faced with a no matching numbers bike and having to fork out your hard earned for a set of a cases, conrods ,bearings etc,etc to strip her down( plus the time to source parts) after she goes bang .Get her right for when the weather improves and ride. Whatever you decide to do , good luck !

 

Hi Hammerski, Yes, you can & should cycle the pump by hand. If you fill bore with oil can, install piston & push it quickly it will squirt oil right out very decidedly. Make sure you don't have pump facing your eyes.
Could maker have had bad quality control & ball is held tight to seat? Of course they could. Using the depth gauge on you vernier calipers you can calculate ball clearance. Maybe just stick a skinny dowel like tooth pick down the bore & see how much movement it has pushing on ball, compressing spring would tell you something? I've never had occasion to do this. I know the ball doesn't move much though.
Don

 

Hi, Just dug out old pump. Feed bore ball has approximately 3/32 ball travel. Very seat worn seat on scavenge side, ball travel a bit under 1/16”.
Used a fat wire. Marked it. Pushed ball down through hole, marked again.
Don

 

Hi Sparkle, have you tried pumping oil into the end of the crankshaft to see it coming out the big ends? I’m wondering if the sludge tube has been installed wrong and blocked the feed.

 

Surely for that to be the issue the pressure relief valve would have to be faulty too?

 

And the crank seal would invert 😉.

 

With all the time so far spent procrastinating the mode of failure it could have been stripped,diagnosed and put back together again

 

just waitin on parts homie

 

I think there is a bad batch of these Hepolite pumps. Can you try manually depressing the check ball using a toothpick or something from the top? Is there any movement? Also, when/where did you buy the pump?

I have one purchased from Feked.com on October 18. Also because Morgo was MIA. I just confirmed on the bench that when assembled the pump barely flows on the small side, and doesn't really on the big side. However, if I back off the valve bolts both sides flow easily.

I also tested removing the plungers and manually depressing the ball with a stick. When assembled, there is no perceptible movement in the ball. However, unscrewing the valve bolt a few threads creates an easy to feel movement in the ball.

I think the ball seat in the end of the bolt leaves the ball too proud of the end and doesn't allow it to travel enough. Seems like this would cause a failure like yours. Pictured are the measurements I took to confirm.

My theory is that A+C-D should equal the total travel of the check ball. Based on my measurements the ball is essentially bound up, and the pump shouldn't work at all. However, unscrewing the bolt should increase value A and the pump would work again. Exactly what the bench test showed.

A=.260 From the pump housing to the seated ball. This is accurate
C=.220 Ball. Accurate
D= .474 to .485 Bolt shoulder to top of ball. Measured on its own to get the smaller value but couldn't get a repeatable result due to the caliper rocking, so I measured the total valve length(E) and subtracted from the end to shoulder(F) to get .485, which is likely more accurate.

 

Old vs New

 

Hi Hammerski, Wow, this is serious. On my old pump the feed side ball moves a good amount pushing down on it. You can very easily feel spring compress.
I’ll try to more accurately measure it tomorrow & link a video.

If ball is being held against seat, that would explain a lot.
I wonder who actually manufactures Hepolite pumps? Who makes the new Hepolite roller main bearings? I wonder if modern Hepolite makes anything themselves. My strong hunch is they sublet everything the sell. Do they have engineers that verify the parts they sell ar to spec & actually work?
Don

 

Hi,
I believe the Hepolite brand name was bought by Wassel.
They market replacemet parts for Classic British cars and motorcycle.
I will wait for Stuart to comment on their quality control procedure, he is far better at outpouring vitriol than I. 😊

I can only say, that I have been to Morgo, seen their production and high QC regime, and for peace of mind will only buy their oil pumps, buying unbranded (or dubious branded) is a risk.

regards
Peg.

 

This makes me glad the new pump I've got sat on the side is a Morgo.

 

So are the springs too long?

 

I got my Hepolite from Classic British Spares within the last month. I placed another order for a Morgo from Shropshire which I assume will probably not be in stock since his website usually will not say when it isnt in stock and allow you to order anyway. Thats how I ended up with the Hepolite in the first place because he was out of the Morgos last month so I rolled the dice and went with the Hepolite.

Anyway I have also ordered a British Standard pump which should be here soon. I personally do not like these because they go with the slots instead of the holes. Seems sketchy to me but reviews have been fine. I also order the parts to rebuild my original pump so between that and the British spares I will see what feels better and go with that. I will be staying away from the Hepolites for now.

 

There are Harris pumps in the UK. I have been lucky and had a 4 valve pump in use put in by the previous owner in 1990. Hard to find these now but never had any problem with it.

 

If that sheered off drive peg ( new looking nut) was not describing the correct circle diameter I'm wondering if it was attempting to drive the plungers too far down and they bottomed out?

Wingnut

 

Wild guess alert!

Has someone fitted the plungers from a different pump? Are the pre-unit plungers longer?

 

Short answer is no, the pre-unit plungers were the same as the early units, the scavenge got bigger in diameter in '67 and the feed also got a bigger diameter in '69, thereafter they didn't change. Pre 1950, both plungers were even smallar diameter

 

My local parts place sell an English made pump ( Harris? ) and warn against using Taiwanese pumps as they apparently seize.

 

Hi, I have 2 friends that got LF Harris pumps. A round port & an oval port.
The oval port started in 1970. Has a fair amount more volume per stroke a good advantage at idle.
My pump was worn at scavenge ball seat. Harris oval port were on back order. Visually inspecting the machining of a Emgo pump, the casting & machining looked rough & not quality. That doesn’t mean it won’t work. But I’ve also heard the reputation of being unreliable.
Morgo pump has slightly larger diameter pistons than late unit pumps. Indeed this does give slightly more volume & more pressure at idle & low rpm. Revving all the pumps put out plenty of volume.
The machining & tolerances of Morgo is stellar.
I’ll have to email Morgo to follow up, but they are looking into producing oval port. That would be best of all.
Don