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Hepolite Oil Pumps, beware!

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#24 · (Edited)
I did not buy a Harris or any other pump because I did not have knowledge of this issue. Hepolite, in spite of these failures, had a good reputation. Perhaps not among the anointed but I was not anointed. Not being snippy, just it is damn hard to know what you do not know. Indeed, why is the Hepolite defective? Failures are catastrophic events, but why are they occurring? To simply say Wassell is crap does not get answer the "why". Not doubting the severity of the issue if it fails but questioning why. Some on forums have not had these failures with Hepolite oil pumps, why?

Yes, I have the pump I just removed. And?

I do default to a maxim of: If there is any doubt, there is no doubt. Regardless of $$$ for a pump, destruction of motor is not an option. Deciding if the pump is a clear and present danger can devolve into a chicken little fearful rather than analytical choice.

Will piggyback a question on this thread. What is the socket that fits the exhaust cam nut and the crankshaft pinion nut [both same size but different types] in the timing case? All I know is that it is larger than a 1" SAE but despite scouring the books and web I can't find the socket size/nut head size.

Do appreciate all the input and while I am squeaky new at this, I still need verification of information before taking actions.

Phil
 
#25 ·
I have no experience of Hepolite oil pumps and no experience of oil pump failure, so I’m not the best person to advise.

I test the ball valves of a Triumph or Morgo plunger oil pump by filling it with oil and pushing and pulling on each plunger in turn.

Pushing a plunger in should make oil squirt out through the ball valve.

Pulling on a plunger should feel like it’s holding a vacuum, until it uncovers the port in the bore.

The bores and plungers should not look scored.

I don’t know what made the pump at the start of this thread break things, but it could be lack of end clearance in the pump bores for the full stroke of the pump. You could try removing the idler gear (losing the valve timing unless you mark all the gears), opening the valve clearances and turning the inlet cam to see if the pump appears to work normally. You can see pulses of oil emerge from the face that mates to the timing cover. No guarantees from me though.

Do you have any reason to think the old pump doesn’t work?
 
#26 ·
Tritn Thrashr said:
I have no experience of Hepolite oil pumps and no experience of oil pump failure, so I’m not the best person to advise.

I test the ball valves of a Triumph or Morgo plunger oil pump by filling it with oil and pushing and pulling on each plunger in turn.

Pushing a plunger in should make oil squirt out through the ball valve.

Pulling on a plunger should feel like it’s holding a vacuum, until it uncovers the port in the bore.

The bores and plungers should not look scored.

I don’t know what made the pump at the start of this thread break things, but it could be lack of end clearance in the pump bores for the full stroke of the pump. You could try removing the idler gear (losing the valve timing unless you mark all the gears), opening the valve clearances and turning the inlet cam to see if the pump appears to work normally. You can see pulses of oil emerge from the face that mates to the timing cover. No guarantees from me though.

Do you have any reason to think the old pump doesn’t work?
Click to expand...
Thrasher,

Thanks that makes sense....pump was "working" 30+ years ago and only with 16K miles on bike....but if I can replace bits and pieces while restoring, especially those that if they fail the motor grenades, and if I can verify the quality of the new parts for replacing old parts, I will put in new pieces.

I view the oil pump like the sludge trap both need to be removed and checked; both can cause motor destruction if not functional.

Appreciate the help,

Phil
 
#27 ·
During 2 rebuilds in 27 years, i check my oil pump and refit it. Covered about 36,000 miles so far . I do replace a few parts at rebuild time but if some bearings are perfect, i would leave them alone. Routine replacing old working parts with new pattern ones can cause problems. The pump fitted by a previous owner was a Triumph 4 valve version but no ide why he replaced it as the engine cases had never been apart.
I bought a set of Hepolite piston rings last year. Went to fit and i would have had to remove about 4mm to gain clearance . They look like they would have been under a lot of tension if i took quite a lot off the ends so just fitted the old ones again. I do replace rings if the head is off for any reason as its such a quick job.
Last year i did buy one Hepolite exhaust valve and that is still working well but i will check wear compared to the other original valves in that head. The valve looked good quality and bedded in well.
During my ownership, i have never taken the cams out as they still work well and bearings seem OK having done 51,000 miles.
 
#28 ·
rambo said:
During 2 rebuilds in 27 years, i check my oil pump and refit it. Covered about 36,000 miles so far . I do replace a few parts at rebuild time but if some bearings are perfect, i would leave them alone. Routine replacing old working parts with new pattern ones can cause problems. The pump fitted by a previous owner was a Triumph 4 valve version but no ide why he replaced it as the engine cases had never been apart.
I bought a set of Hepolite piston rings last year. Went to fit and i would have had to remove about 4mm to gain clearance . They look like they would have been under a lot of tension if i took quite a lot off the ends so just fitted the old ones again. I do replace rings if the head is off for any reason as its such a quick job.
Last year i did buy one Hepolite exhaust valve and that is still working well but i will check wear compared to the other original valves in that head. The valve looked good quality and bedded in well.
During my ownership, i have never taken the cams out as they still work well and bearings seem OK having done 51,000 miles.
Click to expand...

Cool, history like this gives me perspective...have not removed barrels yet but cylinders still have cross markings from honing so hopefully all I will need are new rings and crank plain bearings...holding off removing barrels until I empty primary, gear and timing cases to lessen chances of dinging rods or pistons...plat to put hose on bolts and wrap pipe insulation around rods when barrels come off..

I concur, especially for me since I lack judgement on what is good-to-go I will error on the side of replacement and not just adding parts or trying to "test" a component....

I know you have reviewed this, but were the rings sized to the pistons? Mine are +.020. Did they send you the wrong size rings?

Thanks...Phil
 
#29 ·
The rings i bought were standard T140 size which is what i always use in the 750 kit. Harris rings are always a good fit. I like the Harris rings i have used for many years now and very little oil burning. I may use those Hepolite rings next time around when i have the time to resize them. Could be a few years or maybe never as i am 72 now.
 
#30 ·
rambo said:
The rings i bought were standard T140 size which is what i always use in the 750 kit. Harris rings are always a good fit. I like the Harris rings i have used for many years now and very little oil burning. I may use those Hepolite rings next time around when i have the time to resize them. Could be a few years or maybe never as i am 72 now.
Click to expand...
This information helps, thanks. As I slowly accumulate a knowledge base, I am finding that trusting Hepolite may not be the best course...LF Harris seems to have retained a good reputation.

Thanks again....Phil
 
#31 ·
The name Hepolite doesn’t have much meaning. It’s just a name on a box, applied by an importer or distributor. The component in the box could be from anywhere.

New Hepolite pistons appear to be good a d have served me well. Unless I’m out of date, they are the same Taiwanese pistons that are sold as Harris (and Emgo and JCC), although not necessarily with the same rings and circlips.
 
#32 ·
I do not have the history with Triumph motorcycles that most of you have...but the exploding Hepolite oil pumps, yes only two that I know of, had me investigating the "why"..here is a DM message I sent...I am not representing this to discredit Hepolite products....just presenting the information I currently have...and I believe Wassell is now producing or at least 'owns' Hepolite if what is below is accurate:

"The original parent company of Hepolite motorcycle parts was Hepworth and Grandage, a British engineering firm founded in 1907. They were renowned for manufacturing pistons, piston rings, and cylinder liners, and at their peak operated massive facilities in Bradford and Sunderland. Today, the Hepolite brand is owned by Wassell Limited."


Again, the below direct message is not meant to cast dispersion on CBS or Hepolite; the information is what was sent to me from CBS and the conclusions and comments are mine:

"Do appreciate your experience and explanations. I will return my Hepolite and order an LF Harris. FYI...CBS who seems to be the main distributor for Hepolite in USA finally answered my direct question and concern about the fragmenting Hepolite oil pumps....they said that a "batch" of pumps had a re-designed "spring lane" problem ... here is the message from CBS...they also said they had these they had sold returned and refunded the customers....piss poor if this is accurate that this issue has not been reported..I asked how I could ID the problem 'batch' and told me to ask my vendor...Hmmmmm....Don also recommended the LF Harris and told me to return the Hepolite...."

"The second batch there was issues
They changed the spring lanes, and a couple other things on the second batch. I don’t have any specification on the first oil pump simply because it works." [from CBS]

Just for me, I do not wish to install any part that I would worry about later. Like not knowing the status of my sludge trap, riding my bike while fearful of destruction from a part I installed or overlooked just does not cut it for me. Never any guaranties but I want to do the best job of restoration I can.

Phil
 
#33 · (Edited)
Got this reply today from Martin at Hepolite when I asked about issue with pumps coming apart...once bitten twice wary...no idea how the defective pumps can be identified.

"Hello Philip

A small batch of 25 pumps slipped through QC which were fitted with the wrong check valve components in error plug & spring Some were sold to customers by our dealers before we realised there was an issue

This has now been rectified and all new production is inspected and pressure tested prior to packing
Regards"
 
#34 ·
I wonder if Hepolite will like to pay to repair the damaged engines ? With that admission, anyone having suffered a failure would win at the County Court in a small claims case but first, before Court action, the supplier should be given the chance to pay up first. It is expensive to do this but if the case is proved, the defendant pays all costs involved. It is also very time consuming and would use up at least 40 hours trawling paperwork , sending forms etc. With just that admission here, the case is won. The person you would take to court is the actual seller or shop, not Hepolite, and then the shop has to work with Hepolite to get the money back they would be ordered to pay to the claimant. You cannot take Hepolite to court, it has to be the retailer and the retailer pays out , then has to get the money from Hepolite..
Similar to when i took Russell James motorcycles to court and won.
Consumer protection act 2015 in the UK
 
#35 ·
Ouch....I understand the propensity to sue, don't agree with it, but also understand recompense.... but hopefully my comments and posts don't precipitate a legal battle...UK law? Does not apply to USA vendors? Anyway, my grip is that some of the vendors must have been aware of the issues described with a single "batch"; either through customer complaints or direct bulletins from Hepolite but remained silent...CBS seemed to have stepped up and recalled/refunded....when I went to purchase a Heoplite pump I did think it odd that all the big vendors had it "out of stock".

What I am learning is that products nowadays are at best a compromise in terms of quality and control...regardless of who manufactures the items...old saw: "Ya pays yur money and takes yur chances" is truer than ever.

Hopefully the LF Harris pump on its way to me will be a quality product....time will tell.

Phil
 
#36 ·
All the Harris parts i have fitted have been a perfect fit and very long life. Clutch drum about 25,000 miles, engine sprocket to chain 25,000 miles and still in use, and i usually buy their rings.
 
#37 ·
rambo said:
All the Harris parts i have fitted have been a perfect fit and very long life. Clutch drum about 25,000 miles, engine sprocket to chain 25,000 miles and still in use, and i usually buy their rings.
Click to expand...

Thanks Rambo....that is reassuring...hey, being from the "colonies" and not knowing British...what is the derivation of "Exmouth"?

Do appreciate the insights and hopefully I can retain them!

Phil
 
#38 ·
Do have a question....the two upper ports on the LF Harris oil pump i ordered for my '69 are oval...BUT I have not seen a gasket with two oval openings corresponding to these ports...what am I missing?

Thanks...Phil
 
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