Low fuel?

 

No, not at all. At least half a tank on the first occurrence. Today I had about 3/4 of a tank.

 

Hmm. Did you get the map updated? I can't remember.

 

The dealer loaded map 20494 after I had it in for a previous bout of stalling while decelerating (clutch fully in) and stalling at idle. I have not had a reoccurrence of that issue, but this latest issue is a new symptom. The first time it occurred, temps were in the mid to upper 90's, so I thought maybe it was just related to the heat and a one time event. But todays temp was in the low 80's. Also, I do have the Arrow exhaust.

 

It really does sound like a fuel pressure problem or a TPS problem.

 

Any suggestions on how to troubleshoot which? Would I need to purchase TuneECU or bring it into the dealer to have the TPS reset?

 

You don't need to purchase TuneECU. It's free. You just need to buy a cable to connect to it which can be had for less then $20. You can check your TPS setting with TuneECU but fuel pressure will require a fuel pressure gauge and a special adapters. Your Triumph dealer should have the pressure gauge.

Another possibility is actually the clutch switch. The clutch switch is actually critical to the ECU. Once the clutch switch is re-engaged which actually breaks the circuit the bike knows through the use of the speed sensor and gear position sensor that you are actually underway and not just sitting still. Once engaged it uses the speed sensor, gear position switch, TPS, and MAP sensor to determine load and adjust fuel pump output. The fuel pump is actually pulsed at a high frequency and when there is volume needed it's pulsed at a slower frequency and when more is needed the frequency is ramped up. Check your clutch lever adjustment. If it's loose it's possible it's not re-engaging the clutch switch. Also make sure it's work by trying to start the bike without using the clutch.

 

OK. The bike definitely won't start without using the clutch. I am sure that the dealer would have a fuel pressure gauge, I will have them check that.

I have been curious about TuneECU. I will go ahead and purchase a cable for that. I understand it has an option to reset TPS? Trying to research the issue on other forums, from people with a similar issues, I saw mention of the ECU's torque management system? Is this a possibility and something that can be checked with TuneECU?

The issue has only occurred when going from a full stop, to full acceleration (WOT). Pulling away more gradually has not caused the issue.

 

Hmm. I've never heard of torque managing system. Either this is something new that wasn't discussed at all at the Tiger 800 school or someone is making something up. There is a throttle smoothing system but it shouldn't do this. You should go out and repeatedly test this. Try it normally and if it does cut out on you try it again by releasing the clutch first. As much as it sounds like a fuel delivery problem I doubt it's going to show up in a pressure test as the bike is running good other then that I assume.

 

That may be a result of me doing a generic search for the problem, and not Triumph specific. The reference was from a Kawasaki and the way it was described was "... by monitoring throttle opening, gear position, rate of rpm change, and about 497 other factors through its ECU, it then retards ignition timing to reduce torque when sudden unwanted rpm spikes are detected." Perhaps the same thing as the throttle smoothing system by a different name?

The bike definitely seems to be running well other than that. The bike seems to be popping on decel more than it had, but the dealer told me that isn't unusual in this heat? <shrug>. I am not sure if altitude can be a factor as well. Average altitude is about 5800 feet.

I will definitely go out and test it more. It is a bit disconcerting, when it feels as though it is going to die mid-acceleration, but I will try to see if I can figure with some consistency when it happens. It is literally as though it hits a wall, and then suddenly goes through.

 

I'm impressed going from 0 to 100% throttle at once without looping it. Have to wonder what stresses that places on the machine...

Based on my recent recovery off a mountain side, I don't believe there is a fall sensor, at least not one that kills the motor... lol.

 

Well, OK, it isn't 100% throttle. But let's put it this way. It is when you count on it most to take off quickly and smoothly, that it is most likely to bog down and hesitate.

 

You're not going to loop this bike by going full throttle. It has a long wheel base and compliant suspension. I've yet been able to get a front wheel off the ground and that's not for a lack of trying.

Do you know what the 12 minute tune is? If you're popping more on decel your adaptation values are probably out of whack for some reason. Give it a chance to readapt. I can explain this further later if you need.

 

Do you know what the 12 minute tune is? If you're popping more on decel your adaptation values are probably out of whack for some reason. Give it a chance to readapt. I can explain this further later if you need.

I have not heard of the 12 minute tune, I would love an explanation. I would be willing to give it a try. Thanks in advance!

 

So the 12 minute tune. Triumph uses the O2 sensor to adjust the fuel map at idle at lower throttle openings. This is suppose to happen as you ride but depending on how far you ride and how you are riding it doesn't happen. It requires the throttle opening to be within a specific range and the bike to be under a specific load condition for a specific amount of time. If all the variables are not met it doesn't readapt. So it's possible over a day of riding for the weather conditions to change enough to cause minor typically unnoticeable running conditions to develop. When the bike is new and breaking in the amount of change necessary to the map can be greater and therefore it's possible to get to a point where the changes necessary in the map become noticeable.

All you need to do to allow the bike to readapt without riding is to start with the motor cold start the bike without touching the throttle and let the bike idle until the fan comes on without touching the throttle.

This is the most fool proof method for someone at home to do this. It actually doesn't require the bike to be cold and you don't actually need to avoid touching the throttle until the coolant has risen to around 170 degrees fahrenheit. But without a Triumph diagnostic system to show you what's going on you can't really tell if it's working thus the simplistic method allowing the bike to readapt. TuneECU has a method that should work as well but it describes it as resetting the TPS. This is part of readapting but not the whole thing. When you readapt you are readapting the TPS idle position the idle fueling and the off idle fueling. Off idle isn't really adapted until you are riding.

To adapt off idle properly find a flat piece of highway cruise in 5th gear for 10 minutes minimum.

 

Good information. Thank you. EFI is new to me on bikes. The Tiger is my first bike without carbs. Carbs I understand and can work on; EFI is foreign to me.

 

Thanks for taking the time to write that up MacBandit. I will definitely try it and see if I get a different result. I need to make a trip this morning, which should hopefully meet the 10 minute requirement you mention.

 

My two cents for what its worth on the readapt technique: driving home from the dealer after my 600 mile service my 800 abs would stall repeatedly when I first cracked the throttle starting out. Called the dealer and he said the computer needed to "reset" - told me to start bike and let it idle at least five minutes without blipping throttle. This completely solved the problem!

 

Interesting that 5 minutes worked the bike updates every 9.5 minutes once hot so you are lucky it worked. The instructions I provided for idle readaptation is exactly per Triumph's instructions except that after the fan comes on they say to let it idle an additional 12 minutes. I've never seen need for that additionally 12 minutes (based on watching the bike via Triumph diagnostic computer) on the newer Triumphs made since 2008. The older ones it's probably necessary as the ECU is quite slow on those.

 

I did the re-adaptive technique yesterday before I headed off to the dealer with my wife to pick up her bike. Once we got there, they were actually behind and we had to wait an hour and a half, so I left the bike in the lot and we went to get lunch. When I went to start it up, at first it wouldn't. I had to turn if off, back on, let it do the sweep, rinse and repeat a few times before it started. I am not sure it is in any way related. The last time I turned it off, and before I got it to start, I did drop the side stand again and kicked it up with some force, to make sure it bumped the switch. Might have just been an issue with the side-stand or switch. I will look into that more if I have a further problem with it.

Long story short, it seemed to run really well when we took a ride afterwards. If I got on it from a stop, it just seemed to go without an hesitation or that feeling it was hitting a wall and going to stall. I will definitely keep an eye on it and see if the issue re-occurs, but I was very pleased with how it ran yesterday.

 

Interesting. Did it crank and not fire?

By the way I serviced two XCs in the past two days and I tried replicating your issue and could not.

 

No, nothing. Instrument sweep, then nothing. Same behavior as if the side stand was down, which is why I got the idea to drop it back down and bring it back up with some force. It started right up then. I am thinking maybe it just didn't swing far enough up the first time? I will see if it happens again.

I assume you are referring to the "bogging down" issue in regards to not being able to repeat it? I had an issue a couple weeks back with the bike stalling on decel, about 3,000 miles on the clock. When I took it in to the dealer they checked the map and they reported that the version was coming up as "not in database," so they loaded the newest one for the Arrow. I haven't had the stalling on decel issue again, but the bogging down was a new symptom.

This may, or may not be related to the original stalling problem. I had the Arrow can put on at the 500 service along with the Arrow map. Bike ran great. One day I turn the key past lock and into park, flattening the battery. I charge the battery back up with the Optimate, but a check engine light remains on, so I call the dealer and they tell me I need to bring it in because a dead battery will throw a code and they need to hook it up to clear it. The stalling issue and "not in database" map occurs a day or two later.

The reason I bring up this long story, is I wondered if something could have gone wrong causing the ECU map to reset to a default, when they cleared the code. But unless something other than that dealer visit is causing the reset, and it has happened again, I am not sure the new symptom is related to the stalling/map issue of old.

 

Yes I was referring to the bogging issue.

In your last paragraph I'm confused. Are you asking if the clearing of the code could have caused the failure to start? If so the answer is no. Also I've never seen or heard of a code for low battery though it is possible it caused some other component to fail a test.

 

No. What I was Refering to, is that at some point my bike apparently lost the Arrow map. They put the Arrow can and map on at the 500. Right after I had to bring it in to have the code cleared after the battery died, it did the stalling on decel thing. At that point, upon checking the map version, it was "not in database." I was wondering if in in the process of clearing the code, something could have gone wrong, resetting the map. The failure to start, I believe is unrelated.

But after the battery died, the engine light would stay on. When I called the dealer, they said something about a dead battery will throw a code, and that they have to clear the codes to shut the warning light off. They just rolled it in, cleared the codes, and rolled it back out while I waited.

 

Referring to you first paragraph the answer is simple. When Triumph comes out with a new map it replaces the old one. So the old one is no longer in the database. It simply means that you did not have the latest map.

Interesting. The low battery itself does not throw specific code. To bad they didn't tell you what the actual code was. Though it doesn't really matter.

 

Thanks for clarifying that. The way the dealer made it sound, I thought that it had reset to some kind of default, or the map had somehow become corrupted. Thus the question about if it could have occurred while they were clearing the codes.

 

No. Once the map is installed it can not be altered by power loss or anything else short of a electrical surge or ECU failure.

 

Good to know, so I just need to keep an eye on that surging issue then, hope it doesn't make a come back, and keep a running log of conditions if it does.