Hi Reijo,
The Tri-Spark has some very clever feature, including RPM monitoring software that will retard the ignition timing at very low (kickstart speed) RPM.
I have tried most Electronic Ignition’s and have found I like the easy starting of the Tri-spark. My engines will start about half way through a kick (Hot) and at the end of first kick cold.

Some Electronic Ignitions have a battery saving ‘sleep’ feature that turns off the coils after a few seconds stationary and at ignition switch on, they require 3-4 ignition pulses to ‘wake’ them up, unfortunately, your leg has to provide the rotation for those dead pulses. I avoid these Electronic Ignition systems as I an not very robust.

The Tri-Spark is overpriced compared to most other units, but for me it is well worth the extra cost.

regards
Peg

 

Thank you !

Do you know does Vape have that "sleeping mode" after few seconds ? I have some experience about Vape (in old Jawa,s) and they are otherwise very good i think.

regards

Reijo

 

Thank you !

Do you know does Vape have that "sleeping mode" after few seconds ? I have some experience about Vape (in old Jawa,s) and they are otherwise very good i think.

regards

Reijo

I have no Idea, I have not used a Vape, when I found the Tri-spark ran so much better than anything else I tried, in almost every way, I stopped shopping around and stuck my hand (very deep) in my pocket from then on.

 

I didn’t realise my Wassell/Vape ignition had the sleep function, until I tested it, because the bike is not hard to start, even with good compression.

It was a very simple test! With a working ammeter and with the oil light disconnected, I switched the ignition on. There was no discharge indicated.

I turned the engine over past TDC. A discharge of about two amps showed on the ammeter for two seconds, then it went back to zero.

That got me interested, so I took the plugs out, reattached the HT leads and rested the plugs on the cylinder head. Then, operating the kickstart by hand and watching the piston through the plug hole, it was not difficult to turn the engine past one TDC and see that there was no spark. Turned it through two TDCs and there was a spark.

The first impulse from the trigger just switched the ignition on; did not cause a spark.

I don’t like the sleep function. It would serve to protect an electric starter from kickbacks, but I see it as a nuisance on a twin with a kickstart.

There is now a Mk 2 version of the Wassell ignition. I don’t know if it’s different.

 

Hi TT,

I don’t like the sleep function. It would serve to protect an electric starter from kickbacks

It was one of Ernie (Bransden)'s inventions, long before there were electric-starters on either twins or triples; he said it's to stop the coil(s) draining the battery if the ignition is left turned on. Load of cobblers ime - the one-and-only time I left one of my T160's Ritas on overnight, while I was concerned the following morning, electric starter fired up the engine ...

However, somewhere between Ernie's original good-in-theory (half-arsed, poorly-thought-through in reality) 'idea' and today, the EI makers that still fit the sleep function have completely lost the plot:-

With a working ammeter and oil light disconnected, I switched the ignition on. There was no discharge indicated.

Boyers
MkIII.
What happens when the supply is switched on, current is passed to the coils for about 2.5 seconds and then the module cuts off

...

As for electric-starters on twins, while turning the crank with the timing gears was another good-in-theory idea, once the bits started breaking in reality, you have to wonder why the Co-op continued banging their collective head against financial, engineering and warranty brick walls, didn't just make the necessary changes to the primary and clutch, as on the T160?

Regards,

 

Excuse me for bringing this back from the dead. I was told the Vape retards timing on start which combined with the sleep function would actually seem to be decent insurance for guys like me with electric start twins to keep it from back firing and souring ones day in a big way. My 82 T140 has not had any of the upgraded sprag bits fitted and I don't have an issue kicking it over for the most part but I do have very painful arthritis in both knees and feet so it isn't any fun to say the least.
I have tried to find technical info about the Vape ignition system regarding this heresay but have not had any luck. Has anyone else any clue to this or thoughts on the matter one way or the other?
I have a working Rita system in my bike but would change it out for the added piece of mind.

Thanks! -Don

 

So far as I can tell, the Wassell/Vape ignition retards about 18 crankshaft degrees from full advance, when static and at idling rpm.

I can’t say it has never kicked back, but it hasn’t done it many times.

I have a working Rita system in my bike

I think the sensible thing to do is to just continue using the working Rita.

 

Hi Don,
If I had electric start I would make two consideration.
1) The Tri Spark has many features and proved reliable (after they changed some electronic components several years ago), easy to install, unobtrusive and good reputation for easy kickstarting.
The Vape looks well made in photos, people who own them post that they are good and reliable.
This begs the question; Is the Tri-Spark worth 3 times the price?

2) The T140 electric start was not a great design, If I was generous, I would sat that the drive components are overstressed. Having one turn of momentum before engaging the coils could be an advantage.
This will ease the to torque that the drive train has to overcome.
Triumph Hinkley themselves made same changes on their Early Bonnevlles.

Although loyal to Tri-Spark for many years, If I had an electric start, I would buy the Vape electronic ignition, then take the saved £200 down the pub.
If it turned out to be a bad decision, then remove and buy the Tri-Spark. But that is an expensive lesson to learn.

 

I have a Wassel. Think I mentioned this already. It has not once kicked back, despite some very limp-wristed and botched kickstart efforts on my part. Can't offer any more technical insight than that.

Timing 38⁰. I keep the tappet gaps correct. Electrics in good condition. If it makes any difference, only ethanol-free fuel.

 

Thanks, I appreciate your experience. I'm in the botched kick start camp the majority of the time. My joints are in such horrible shape but I do eventually manage it.

 

Hi Don,

82 T140
told the Vape retards timing on start which combined with the sleep function would actually seem to be decent insurance for guys like me with electric start twins to keep it from back firing

I'm not quite sure what you mean here:-

. all EI retard the timing electronically at start and low rpm;

. "Vape" (made by Vape for Wassell) is like all EI based on the Boyer-Bransden analogue - B-B, Pazon, Sparx all have the "sleep function".

have tried to find technical info about the Vape ignition system

As it's Wassell's, good luck on that ... Have you tried emailing Wassell in GB?

have a working Rita system in my bike but would change it out

If you do change the EI, please don't randomly mutilate your bike's electrics following other makers' "fitting instructions", none of which are remotely suitable for '79-on Triumphs. I can help, just ask.

Hth.

Regards,

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean here:-

. all EI retard the timing electronically at start and low rpm;

. "Vape" (made by Vape for Wassell) is like all EI based on the Boyer-Bransden analogue - B-B, Pazon, Sparx all have the "sleep function".

I wasn't aware of this. Do you know if this applies to the Rita ignition as well or is it only the aftermarket offerings?

As it's Wassell's, good luck on that ... Have you tried emailing Wassell in GB?

No, not yet but that's a good idea and I will. Thanks.

If you do change the EI, please don't randomly mutilate your bike's electrics following other makers' "fitting instructions", none of which are remotely suitable for '79-on Triumphs. I can help, just ask.

No worries there. I have a bit of OCD when it comes to wiring especially. If I do end up with an after market EI at some point I would certainly post here before doing anything permanent to the original harness regardless.

Hopefully I'm not putting the cart before the horse here but what do you think of the notion I put forward Stuart? Could it be cheap insurance in your opinion to retire the Rita EI and install a Wassell for the initial timing considering it is an ES bike and I would like to actually use it from time to time rather than relying on my feeble attempts via kickstart. Also, a factor for me in this is that there are times when I can't physically use a kick start due to pain and that means no riding for me regardless without ES.
I've read as many of the archived threads here and on BB as I can find relating to the starter issues this model has and to be frank I don't know that installing the improved sprag bits would really be much of a solution or piece of mind if the stronger parts simply move the potential for damage further up the chain. I have installed an AGM battery and keep an eye on it to be sure it is fully charged. The bike was well in tune last time I rode it but has admittedly sat for too long sadly.
It may just come down to taking my chances with it but I would like to mitigate the risk involved as much as possible.

-Don

 

Nobody can say a new Vape or Boyer kit will be more reliable or last longer than an old Rita.

 

When my Boyer failed, it seemed to get "stuck" at advanced, there were terrible kickbacks. Nearly wrecked my foot, nevermind the crankcase.

This is just one unit in one bike. Doesn't actually mean anything, other than I would not fit a Boyer to my own Triumph if it had electric start.

Think I wouldn't keep a Rita, even though obviously durable if still going, just because of the (probably misplaced) idea things have improved in the last fifty years.

There is an electronic ignition with antikickback, supposedly. Can't remember which one.

There's other things to do to reduce kickback risk. Oil. Contentious, if course. I use 5W/50, makes starting easier. Use foot to get just past compression . Engine has easy starting then, momentum before hitting a compression. Get a Fulbatt battery, plenty of turning amps. Obviously keep bike maintained, valves, and battery. Perhaps set timing to 37⁰. Maybe avoid using if means leaving in very cold conditions? Could always warm a very cold engine at home. Might be better not to get the stronger mechanics? Better they go than the casings?

There's an electric start Tiger that went around the globe, it's not all doom and gloom.

 

Hi Don,

. all EI retard the timing electronically at start and low rpm;
. "Vape" (made by Vape for Wassell) is like all EI based on the Boyer-Bransden analogue - B-B, Pazon, Sparx all have the "sleep function".

I wasn't aware of this.

Essentially, EI replaces points. Originally, points were moved by a lever on the handlebars to advance and retard spark timing depending on engine rpm; later, points were fitted on an auto-advance unit, that generally rotates the points mounting with a mechanism based on weights that move outwards by centrifugal force as the AAU is spun faster by engine rpm (when the AAU spins slower, the weights are pulled back by springs, rotating the points mounting, retarding the timing). Generally, only race engines didn't have a way of retarding the timing, as they were generally run at or near full throttle.

So EI on a road-vehicle engine advances and retards spark timing same as points. However, one advantage even on early EI is the spark advance/retard rpm range was much greater than points - whereas spark timing by points and AAU is normally fully-advanced by 2-3,000 rpm, original aftermarket Rita wasn't fully-advanced 'til 6,500 rpm, Boyer Mk.3 analogue wasn't advanced 'til 5,000 rpm, as is OE '79-on Rita.

Do you know if this applies to the Rita ignition as well or is it only the aftermarket offerings?

Rita advances and retards spark timing same as points or any other EI - I've first-hand experience of 250 cc of not-retarded ignition on a triple, there is absolutely no mistake even without arthritis, dodgy knees, feet, etc. ...

Otoh, Rita (and Tri-Spark) don't have the "sleep function" (that's more usually just a pita).

Hopefully I'm not putting the cart before the horse here but what do you think of the notion I put forward Stuart? Could it be cheap insurance in your opinion to retire the Rita EI and install a Wassell for the initial timing considering it is an ES bike and I would like to actually use it from time to time rather than relying on my feeble attempts via kickstart. Also, a factor for me in this is that there are times when I can't physically use a kick start due to pain and that means no riding for me regardless without ES.

Unfortunately, I don't have first-hand experience of the electric-start twins; both my T160's have had Rita since God was in short pants, but the T160 electric-start drives the primary, no problems.

EI reliability is all over the place:-

. My T160's Ritas have been completely reliable; however, I know others have had problems, the '79-on twins 5PU is generally less-reliable than the earlier aftermarket pickup. But Ritas are still fixable for a lot less than any new EI and a 5PU replacement based on the earlier aftermarket pickup has been around for decades.

. Similarly, I know many triple owners have had problems particularly with Boyer-Bransden; however, in the US, Coventry Spares in MA is authorised to test, repair, replace as required.

. Pazon counteracts unreliability perceptions with a 7-1/2-year warranty, albeit while Coventry Spares can test a potentially-faulty one, it has to go back to NZ for replacement.

. Coventry Spares could also test a potentially-faulty Wassell/Vape but Wassell don't offer any warranty, any replacement would be down to the seller and state consumer protection law.

Imho, EI-with-a-sleep-function might save an electric-start twin's bits. But, if you fit one, you won't know 'til it doesn't. B-B, Pazon, Vape, etc. are a couple of hundred bucks? Otoh, how much is changing to all the 'better' later gears, etc. and keeping the Rita?

Hth?

Regards,

 

. Pazon counteracts unreliability perceptions with a 7-1/2-year warranty, albeit while Coventry Spares can test a potentially-faulty one, it has to go back to NZ for replacement.

It's me Pierre Gariepy and I'm still satisfied with my Pazon Smart-Fire PD2TP purchased in 2006

Story #7, by Pierre Gariepy :: Pazon Ignitions Limited

Overview of Digital & Analogue Ignition Systems. Classic bike & car electronic ignitions for road & racing.

www.pazon.com

 

I came across a thread over on BB regarding the issues had by Meriden and the ES issue specifically by meriden4ever from many years back;

"Meriden issued an updating kit (part no. 99-7515)to cure the teething problems- consisted of part no.s 71-7619 (hub gear no.8), 71-7621 (gear 6/7) & 71-7561 (internediate spindle with no cross holes). The update service bulletin stated , 'All engine produced subsequent to NDA 31369 have these later type components fitted'."

I have not had the case off to inspect these parts to verify them since taking ownership from my dad but my engine (31728) does appear to fall after the bulletin. So there may be the possibly I am fortunate to already have the upgraded bits from the factory. Initially because I have never visually inspected them and I did not see them listed in the service records I took for granted that they were the original items. Now I'm not so sure, I will have to make it a point to verify it as well as inspect for any damage to them or the bushing and case.

This might also help explain how this bike with 16k miles on it has not had these parts grenade yet. Although my father knew of this and used the kick start in his years of ownership due to it. I did look some time ago to see if it had ever had replacement parts fitted and found nothing in the service records to indicate such.

So at any rate I suppose it all comes down to whether it would be worth it or not to change out the EI for the delayed firing of the aftermarket systems. Maybe it is cheap insurance, maybe not. I do have an email off to Wassell regarding their system but I am not optimistic I will receive a reply since they openly state on their site they "cannot entertain enquiries from the public." only from their vendors but who knows? Maybe they'll take pity on me? Ha.

I am of a mind to think it is best left well enough alone for now but I am sure it is something I will ponder. My overall health is as good as it's going to be for the time being so I will just work on my technique for kicking it over and keep it all well in tune.

I really appreciate all the wonderful insight and helpful people here.

-Don

 

Hi Reijo,

I am about to fit the Vape EI system (Micro Mk1) to my 1968 T100R Daytona, the unit should arrive in the next couple of days and I will be doing a video of the fitting and setting up on my YouTube channel so will add the link to your post when done.

I have fitted this system to 2 later model side points engined Tiger Cubs, a 1969 BSA 250 Starfire and a 1971 BSA B50T Victor (the last 2 bikes I still have and use) Never had any issues with any of the 4 bikes I have fitted the Vape systems to.

I know the unit has the sleep mode after 2 seconds, but the Starfire and B50 will still start 1st kick, maybe not always on the B50 as its a 500cc single with a 10:1 compression ratio, so you have to have everything set exactly right before you give it the big boot, plus now in my 70's and a lightweight, but its never kicked back thankfully, so there must be enough latitude to give enough retardation for start-up and I have them timed at high RPM for the recommended full advance with a strobe light.

The Daytona starts first kick with the standard points setup, so when the Vape system is fitted I am expecting the same. The main issue with my standard setup is the advance unit is very worn, I have tried new springs, adjusted everything best I can, but it still pinks (pre ignition knock) under load, so hoping that the fit and forget Vape EI system will sort it out.

Some years ago I made a test rig with a old Lucas advance unit and the standard Lucas 6CA points plate for testing coils, condensers and plug leads etc., so when the EI unit arrives I will be modifying the test rig to fit the Vape unit so I can do some tests before fitting.

In the past I have tried to find information on the Vape EI unit sold by Wassell, but very little info out there, if you go on the Vape website they manufacture and sell thousands of aftermarket motorcycle products relating to EI systems, charging coils, rectifier/regulators, ignition coils, flywheels, stators ect. and all look very well designed and made, however I have never found anything relating to the Micro Mk 1 or 2 EI systems on their website, here is the link to their website; Evropa | Vape

The image of my old Lucas test rig which I will modify to take the Vape system.

Regards, Brian.

 

Finally fitted the Wassell Vape unit yesterday to my 1969 Daytona T100R, all setup and adjusted and starts first kick.

Also did some tests on the unit before fitting, all in the link below to my YouTube video.