I gather this topic has been discussed before - I only recent came over to the dark water-cooled side recently so I'm playing catch-up. The dealer definitely said they had a different map for the V&H. They weren't charging me so didn't have anything to gain, and the young guy who I spoke to was one of those enthusiastic guys who knew all about the different de-cats, the need for adaption, the different tunes - not just one of those couldn't-care-less types. I can only go on gut-feel, and what I can observe, but I didn't feel like I was been given the run-around.


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Nick,

Last year my dealer installed the V&H on my 2016 T120, and did not charge me for the service. The tech told me the same thing, that it would enable the motor to run a bit richer. Intuitively, I thought it gave it a little more "zip". One thing I did notice was that it would start on the first press of the red starter button almost every time, cold or hot. But after some period of time that improvement seems to diminish. Now, its back to starting instantly on the second push of the starter button, when cold. But the motor is definitely stronger, but thats probably due more to the fact that it has 2700 miles on it and is fairly well broken in.

Just yesterday, I was speaking with a trusted M/C tech (independent shop) who has previously done much excellent work on my two Harleys. His opinion was that a decat , and /or muffler changes , air cleaner, I.E. any mod that alters air/ fuel / exhaust in or out should ideally be accompanied by the ability to adjust A/F mixture and made best with benefit of a dyno. He strongly recommended a Power Commander unit, and I see via their web site that they offer one for the T120. I need to do some research to see if others might have any experience with this unit.

Thanks,
Gary

 

Thanks Gary, interesting. I think the generally accepted wisdom is that the ECU can adapt itself to the decat anyway, I think proven by the experts Fenech and Jsobell, so I think it's fine even just decatting, but I of course can't stop messing. Having a carb bike previously I always scorned mapping tools like the PCV, but now I have a T120 I have had to swallow my pride and read up. I've read and spoken to people who rate the boosterplug, and those that think just enriching by a simple 6% is low tech snake oil. I've looked at the Power commander, but over $400 seems steep, when all I really want to do is make sure it is running at nominal performance, I'm not trying to race tune. My feeling was that the decat was bound to lean things up a bit, though not too much, and if I could tip the balance back the other way a bit, rather than a more extreme solution like the booosterplug or PCV then why not. I'm hoping eventually some other geniuses will dyno all this and do the hard work for me, it for now I think I'm pretty safe


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I'd like to know exactly how the bike is running as far as A/F mixture, when I get around to changing hardware that effects intake and output. At that time, I'll probably put it on the dyno to maximize output and find out what I got for my money! But,....I'm waiting for the expiration of the warranty period next spring, watching this forum, and what the aftermarket suppliers have to offer us.

Gary

 

The narrow band O2 sensor doesn't allow the ECU to adapt under load. If you want to do it right, get a PCV and find a dyno tuner who knows what he's doing. Things like adding 6% is just guessing - half a$$ed.

 

Thanks all, but my point is that there have already been dyno tests of the 1200 engine that show it's well within a/f tolerances with a decat. The V&H tunes is a Triumph-made / approved tune for a leaner exhaust, so anyone that has already decatted may want to look to get loaded.


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Here's a link to previous work.... shows a remap isn't necessary, I just wanted one to see...



Cat removal (X-pipe) - Dyno tests, A/F ratios, performance - Definitive test results

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh...e_tid=798745&url=http://www.triumphrat.net/showthread.php?t=798745&share_type=t


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@N1ckel Pardon my bluntness, but the 1200HP engined WC Triumphs do not have an optional tune available to them, because they not have a catless exhaust accessory option from the factory. Therefore, no such tune exists.

Only the 900HT engine has (had) a catless exhaust option from Triumph, so it is the only engine that has an optional catless (aka "off road") tune available. There's photo evidence of this tune's existence and I have seen it first hand at the dealership on the laptop they use to connect to the ECU.

Either there's some confusion in with the communication from your dealership, or something has changed in the software recently.

T120 only has one tune available from Triumph. The optional tune only applies to the ST, SC, and SS (and some conjecture surrounds SS compatibility due to SS's ABS options).

 

It wasn't a catless tune, it was the tune for the V&H mufflers, which are an option for the T120. They confirmed there is no off-road tune, but there is a different tune for the V&H.


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The 'experts' will be along soon to explain it all again.:nerd:

The generally accepted wisdom that the ECU adapts...........?

 

The stock O2 sensor is "narrow band" and only tells the ECU if the mixture is rich or lean. This is sufficient for fuel adaptation at idle and constant throttle position. It is not adequate for acceleration at large throttle openings, where the A/F ratio changes by more than the narrow band sensor can accurately measure. For that, a wide band sensor is required.

 

There is no "V&H" tune. The Cat on all the New Bonnevilles is the primary muffler & source of back pressure. I've personally contacted 'higher-up' individuals at Triumph of North America in Georgia to confirm this, more than once. It's disconcerting to read from this very forum, just how misinformed, or out of the loop, many Triumph service managers and/or techs still are. As stated above by @Delta took the time to reply, there are no slip-on tunes of any kind available for any of the new Bonnevilles. As the Cat is the primary muffler. One could run no slip-on's at all if they wanted, as long as there is still the factory Cat. The service managers & techs are apparently still getting this confused with the previous <2016 Bonnevilles that DID have "slip-on" or "Arrow" tunes... I found, personally, that just because the tech or service manager works there, clearly doesn't mean they are nearly as "into" Triumphs as many of the owners are. Remember, it's just a pay-check for most of them... I doubt one thinks the assistant manager at McDonald's really is that "into" the toy he just handed you that the 16 year-old forgot to put in the box along with the 5-piece nuggets, so your kid will stop crying... It's a great bike. And I'm glad you weren't charged for "nothing". As some on here actually have. Ride safe. Cheers.

Ps. I was so skeptical ,myself, that I actually had a look, with my own eyes, thanks to a tech that I became friendly with allowing me to do so, at the Triumph server-screen while my bike was connected during an oil change.

 

So what did they load? I don't dispute anything posted, I was curious so I went to find out for myself. They uploaded something which they called the V&H tune, I doubt it was an air-cooled map, though I suppose they could have, but I don't think there was a V&H tune for air-cooked models either? I think I'll go back in and see if I can get the technical details of the tune, #number etc.


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Who knows... They, likely, just learned for themselves right at that very moment your bike was connected, that there isn't an available "slip-on" tune anymore for the <2016 Bonnevilles. And rather than looking like a bunch of know-nothings, they can be all like "Ok, all done! And out of the goodness of our hearts, and since you are such a loyal & paying customer, we took it upon ourselves to not have the money left over to fill the vending machine in the waiting area of the lobby this week, and not charge you for your patriotism to our dealership."... And so now Mr. Customer gets to ride away feeling like the issue was taken care of. And at the same time falsely feeling important to the dealer. #Everybody is Happy

Also, while attached to the Triumph server, they can make sure the current, and ONLY, available tune hasn't been updated. As that was the case for the very first of the >2016 Thruxton 1200 motors. However, it's still the exact same, and comes stock on all the new 1200 motors to this day, and still meant to be used with ANY & all slip-on's while still retaining the factory Cat. So that's likely what they did, just run the 'check', with yours. Cheers.

Ps... Yes, sadly you would have to get the tune # (as I had to do), and then go out of your way to eventually get someone on the phone at Triumph North America that is higher up than the customer service people that roll their eyes at you when they pick up because you are cutting into their Facebook surfing time. And those higher-up's are only there 9to5, M-F... The current tune number for the Truxton 1200 engine is 030042... No idea (sorry) what it is for the T-120-1200-HT motor... If you had a tech you actually knew, and would take the extra minute out of his day, he could easily look it up for you.. And no, they DON'T need your bike there to do it. Because that's a line they LOVED feeding me at other dealers. (This gets you down there, and a chance to get something else done, or buy an accessory, or who knows.)

 

Yes... Feel free to search on this very forum where it was & is confirmed to be exactly the same, just a different tune # between the 1200-HP & 1200-HT engines, obviously. (This is the first time I have seen a 'new' thread started on this misinformation roughly 3 or 4 months.) I just didn't memorize the 1200-HT tune #, like I did for my Thrux... I'm a total loser... But I'm not that much of a total loser.

 

^^^ Looks like you replied twice on accident. My response is just above your last post.

 

Hah oops IPhone


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But the dyno results show WOT is ok, so we are still ok...? The point is not how much I don't know about ECU's or O2 sensors - I don't know much, so yes I'm sure you are right - but that the bike is still ok with a decat


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If "OK" means it's not going to burn a valve, then OK. At WOT, the A/F should be 13 across the range. The stock tune is rich, at least for the Thruxton. So from the Thruxton test, you do get a boost with the Meerkat and if it's smooth enough for you in normal riding, go for it. Also surprising was that the performance mufflers made no difference. Apparently the intake is restricted. It would have been nice if they had put HP and RPMs on those plots.

PS: I never needed to worry by about dyno tuning until I got a Rocket with a full Jardine exhaust. With individual filters on each throttle body, the Triumph off road tune gave an A/F over 15.

 

These exhaust mod threads always break down into two camps.

One lot want to hear that they can change the whole exhaust with no tuning mods at all.

The other lot reckon that you must do the re-tune but not only that. It's got to be with a dyno run and a skilled tuner.

Based upon the dyno evidence that is available I would say that the first group are ok if they just want a better sound and a possibility of a small power boost.

If it's a proper performance boost you are after you really need that dyno run.

I had a dyno developed TTP map on my 2013 Thruxton 900 and it made a big difference to the way the bike ran.

 

TTP & the 1200 ?



Yes I agree.

TTP are brilliant at what they can achieve & it did make a big difference to the 900 which it needed, I am not sure whether or not TTP are now working on something for the 1200 Range, perhaps they may think that because it takes a hell of a lot or work for them to develop these various maps & because the 1200 already has the performance that not many owners would want to make the changes.. TTP actually sponsor this website forum lets hope they read this post & reply..

 

I think it's safe to say that the two camps out there are those who have done dyno runs, and those who haven't. If you haven't then everything is hearsay and opinion, and if you have then you have some scientific statistics and don't have to guess.

Re the PCV; the bike will run fine without one no matter what you do, but fitting one "tidies it up", as in it smooths out and improves the power and responsiveness simply because it enables flattening the A/F better than stock, lets you alter timing to gain a couple more HP, and easily lets you reduce the loud 'popping' on overrun if you've fitted slip-ons or removed the cat.

The T120 HT engine is similar enough that it probably has very similar characteristics to the HP with regards to fuelling ratios on the TPS/RPM map. We'll know for sure once we get one to measure on the dyno, but the two 1200HPs we've run had absolutely identical results so I suspect there's little variation between engines (unlike carb'd models which tend to vary significantly)

 

I think it's safe to say that the two camps out there are those who have done dyno runs, and those who haven't. If you haven't then everything is hearsay and opinion, and if you have then you have some scientific statistics and don't have to guess.



Re the PCV; the bike will run fine without one no matter what you do, but fitting one "tidies it up", as in it smooths out and improves the power and responsiveness simply because it enables flattening the A/F better than stock, lets you alter timing to gain a couple more HP, and easily lets you reduce the loud 'popping' on overrun if you've fitted slip-ons or removed the cat.



The T120 HT engine is similar enough that it probably has very similar characteristics to the HP with regards to fuelling ratios on the TPS/RPM map. We'll know for sure once we get one to measure on the dyno, but the two 1200HPs we've run had absolutely identical results so I suspect there's little variation between engines (unlike carb'd models which tend to vary significantly)

Thanks Jsobell - how plug-and-play is the PCV? Does it take much to get a good map - how easy is it to bugger everything up? Interested in adding one, as I know I will continue to mod...


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A couple of questions please;

When you refer to "PCV", you do mean Power Commander 5, correct ?
What does TTP stand for?

(One of the problems I have with this forum is the use of unexplained acronyms / initials that replace words.)

And still further in response to Nickolarge's post # 27,
Is it not true that if you change exhaust and intake hardware on these bikes the only way to accurately determine, read, OR adjust the resulting air / fuel ratio is through the use of a Power Commander or similar device?

Thanks for your comments.
GEB

 

What does TTP stand for?

https://www.triumphtwinpower.com/triumph-twin-power-efi-tunes.php

 

Sorry, yes, PCV is Power Commander 5, and TPS is the throttle position sensor. The PCV reads the TPS and the RPM and applies a relative adjustment to the FI pulse length and the CPS advance amount to give you more HP and NM.

You're quite right, there are far too many TLAs!! (Three Letter Acronyms)
@N1ckel, the PCV is relatively easy to fit. Re the tune, well it's tricky to bugger things up because setting everything to zero means it's all factory standard, so it's not risky like replacing your ECU
There are a few people with tunes they've had done on dynos, but they are obviously dependant upon the mods you've had done, and can be dependant on your bike. Some bikes are very similar, but every now and then you can get one with noticeably different characteristics, so it's worth getting a dyno tune done if you can afford it.
Having said that, a friends tune for a similar setup will probably be 90% accurate enough anyway, but it's still advisable to get at least a simple dyno run anyway with A/F analysis simply to check that there's nothing untoward about your engine, and if you were really sensible you'd get one before and after the PCV installation just to check you haven't made things worse

 

Installing the PCV is easy. Finding a performance tuner isn't that easy. Dynojet has automatic software that adjusts the fuel on a dyno run at wot usually in 4th gear. My tuner says this doesn't work. A good tuner will add or remove fuel under different loads in all gears, giving smooth and max power under all riding conditions. You can install a base map with no trims in the pcv which won't do anything at open throttle but you can go in and add 10-20% in the 0 throttle position from about 2000-5000 rpm to get rid of the popping and then get it dyno tuned when you're finished with the mods, assuming you can find a tuner. The pcv costs about $350.

 

Many thanks for the explanations.
They've confirmed much of my thoughts on this subject. Over the winter, I hope to try and sort out the best exhaust ,intake components, cat. replacement, etc. for my T120 in anticipation of the warranty expiration in the spring. I'm fortunate to have a local dyno equipped shop with a tech who has done previous excellent work for me. My goal being to allow the motor to run with as much HP and torque as its stock design allows consistent with a conservative A/F ratio.
W.O.F.T.L.T.V. ...........(Watch out for those left turning vehicles!)
GEB