Would you please be good enough to load up a photo of your bike just to confirm year of manufacture when purchased in 2016, which maybe old stock Air or new stock Water Cooled........

 

Get your bike running then measure the voltage across the battery
First at idle, then at 2-4K rpm. It should get up to around 14V to charge the battery

 

The fact that you shorted the two posts on the starter solenoid and the engine fired up 99% confirms the problem is with this component. I have exactly the same problem on my Aprilia RSV Tuono. It wouldn't start intermittently last summer, then the problem seemed to go away. I tried to start the bike again a couple of days ago and was getting clicking at the solenoid but no starter motor rotation. I got a voltmeter on the solenoid post that feeds the starter motor and checked the voltage; 0v even with the clicking. This is an upgraded 150A solenoid but I guess nothing lasts forever. After a few pushes of the button the solenoid eventually kicked the engine into life. New solenoid going on order soon. If you go down the same route, do not by cheapo chinesium. These can fuse the internal contacts together and then you cant stop your starter motor from rotating until you disconnect a battery terminal.

 

Did you check the starter relay?

 

Looking at the solenoid the battery cable at the left , jump from that battery cable terminal to the spade terminal just above it , engine should turn over, if not remove the wire from the right top spade terminal and with a jumper wire ground that terminal, try to start bike.

 

On the 865cc air cooled I found a modification to the starting wiring circuit to remove this issue on this forum and it works well on my 2011 EFI T100 Bonneville.

 

Yes I tried to find it for the OP and couldn't. As I remember it had to do with the ECM not grounding the solenoid or headlight cut out relay with a slight voltage drop.

 

Thanks for all responses.

To Boy Racer – in my bullet 1, I stated the ID of my bike. 2016 is the LAST year that Triumph produced air cooled engines for eh Bonneville.

Stevex998 – 10-4 on that sage advice re: Chinese solenoids. Don’t get me started on China ...

GregsBonnie – Please post the details on that “modification … to remove this issue” or profide the URL on this forum.

BaltoBonneville - I’m not sure where (exactly) that is located. I am attaching a pic of what’s under my LH cover. What I have labeled at the Headlight relay is per p.17.23 of the service manual. Other pictures I’ve seen posted on the Internet have this labeled as the Starter relay. ???

RWEB – Can you please elaborate on this procedure?

I am attaching a series of pictures that describe what I have done since my initial post. Slide 3 is telling; something about these results is wrong.

My understanding is that the (referring to my slides), when the start button is pressed, the circuit across terminals 3 & 4 should energize the coil within the solenoid to internally bridge across terminals 1 & 2, allowing the current from #1 to flow to #2 and on down to the starter. I’m not sure how the “starter relay” is involved and the service manual offers nothing.

Having made the onboard tests I have documented, the only thing left to do is to remove the solenoid, and on the bench energize it while checking continuity/resistance across the #1 & #2 terminals. If I get no continuity, I will know that the solenoid coil is bad. If it checks out, then it may be something else (e.g., the starter relay).

I will post back later.

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ep6EYueLDd9XrP8g9https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ep6EYueLDd9XrP8g9

My Photos on screen pics and txt details of mods could not find original cheers Greg

 

In the 4th photo with key on starter button pressed there should be battery volts at terminal # 3 . Terminal #1 is direct from battery so battery volts at all times, Terminal #2 is to starter and has bat volts only when solenoid is energized with 12 v from headlight cut out relay when start button is pressed or if you jump from terminal #1 to terminal #3 with wire or Jim clip. Terminal #4 should be to ground .

Do the test I suggested jumper terminal #1 to #3 .

Could have a bad headlight cut out relay possibly. you could snap the cover off and look inside , sometime water gets in them and corrodes the contacts.

 

Copy of screen pics

 

Not sure if this'll help

https://www.triumphrat.net/threads/start-issues.974161/post-2004105356

https://www.triumphrat.net/threads/help-starting-issues.799161/post-8742057

 

GregsBonnie - Thanks for the posts on the “ECU modification”. I’ll ponder that later.

Rweb – I performed the test you suggested in #6; the bike turned over and stated right up! The test you suggested in #10 I believe I already did. See notes on the last pic I posted in #9.

JimmyMC – thanks for those 2 URLs. I will review them.

BaltoBonnie – I discovered this the hard way. For the longest time, in blog posts and elsewhere, I have seen reference to a “starter relay” and a “headlight relay” – 2 seemingly unrelated components. It turns out, as you said, that the so-called “starter relay” and the so-called “headlight relay” are one and the same !! Much of the confusion ascribes to the Triumph service manual, which I have complained about several times. On its p.17.23, the component (shown in my first photo in post #9) is referred to as the “Headlight relay”. However, on the foldout electrical diagram (p.17.111), the component is referred to as a “Starter relay” !! I confirmed this by inspecting the 5 wires (their colors) that connect to it. And I see one port 87 connected the starter solenoid. A far better name for this component would be “Starter/Headlight relay” or simply “Headlight Cut-out relay”. See pic ...

A final related point:

From a post on another forum - “[The component] temporarily diverts headlamp power to the operating coil of the starter solenoid when the start button is pressed, which incidentally turns the headlight off to help the battery cope with the huge starter motor current demand.”

NOWHERE in the Triumph service manual or Owners Manual is this critical statement made – ANYWHERE !!


It’s interesting that you say:

“… there have not been very many instances of solenoid failure documented on this forum. The starter relay, on the other hand, is a common item to fail or malfunction, and is easily and inexpensively replaced.” As I will confirm this when I isolate the solenoid on the bench and energize it, this (Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay) seems like the low-hanging fruit - first thing to try replacing.

RichBinAZ – Thaks for this suggestion. I believe this test is obviated with the successful test I did in Rweb’s #6.

More later after I do the bench test ...

 

Here’s the “bench test”:

I isolated the solenoid in a small bench vise. I energized the 2 spades:
12.9V to #3; battery ground to #4.

When the connection was made, the solenoid immediately clicked ONCE.

In that configuration:

• I measured continuity across #3 and #4.
• Resistance across #3 and #4 was 0.3Ω

I believe this indicates that the solenoid is okay. So I guess I now turn attention to the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay.

 

That test was unnecessary, when you did the test I suggested in post # 6 and the bike started. That test proved that the battery , solenoid, and related connections are all good. What you need to know now is why the solenoid terminal # 3 is not being supplied 12v when the start button is pressed. Check that headlight cut out relay clicks when the start button is pressed . As I said before that cover can be removed and you can see it work ,

 

For the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay (Hella 12V 4RD 933 322 – 05)

Test procedure:

1. Confirm continuity between pins 85 & 86.

Resistance should be between 50Ω and 200Ω.

1. Connect 12V to pins 85 & 86. Listen for an audile click which indicates the relay is activated.

1. With meter in resistance mode, connect one probe to pin 30 (common) and the other to pin 87 (normally open). With the relay activated (power supplied to coil), you should see a low resistance between these pins, indicating a connection between the contacts.

My test:

1. NO continuity between pins 85 & 86. Resistance is ~82Ω.
2. I hear a click.
3. About 2Ω - 8Ω between pins 30 & 87.

The result in #1 suggests a faulty Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay.

 

For the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay (Hella 12V 4RD 933 322 – 05)

Test procedure:

1. Confirm continuity between pins 85 & 86.

Resistance should be between 50Ω and 200Ω.

1. Connect 12V to pins 85 & 86. Listen for an audile click which indicates the relay is activated.

1. With meter in resistance mode, connect one probe to pin 30 (common) and the other to pin 87 (normally open). With the relay activated (power supplied to coil), you should see a low resistance between these pins, indicating a connection between the contacts.

My test:

1. NO continuity between pins 85 & 86. Resistance is ~82Ω.
2. I hear a click.
3. About 2Ω - 8Ω between pins 30 & 87.

The result in #1 suggests a faulty Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay.

No, you confirmed the relay is good. When relay is activated , pins 85 86, you hear a click, low resistance between 30 and 87 . You now need to know if the relay is working ON THE BIKE. Causes for it not to work... bad fuse, neutral switch, clutch switch, start switch, kill switch.
dose the relay click on the bike when start button is pressed ?

 

This is for Rweb's post #20:
I fully understand the value of testing in situ, but isolation has its value, too.

Soon after I posted the results of my test, I discovered another ("final") step that is important:

● With the relay activaled, with a grounded 12V test light, apply this load to pin 87 and confirm current flow.

When I did this, I got no current flow to pin 87 !
This may suggest a bad relay.

I will reinstall the relay and listen for a click, which may be had to hear. Thanks.

 

Hold the relay with your fingers, may be easier to feel than hear. As said before the box cover can be removed easily and you can see it work.

 

Auto parts store relays are fine to use. Just get one with the right number of connectors. Most of these solenoids are not waterproof and by removing the cover, you can see if they are corroded or eroded by use.
If you are using a non triumph solenoid, see if you can install it with the contacts pointing down, so water/humidity can drip off it, rather than into it.

Sometimes the click can be deceiving, The primary solenoid works fine (the click) but the main contacts don't engage for one reason or another.

The test I suggested in post #15 was for the starter switch and wiring, but it looks like you are finding the cause.

 

Firstly, I revise the text I posted in #17; this is better:

Bench Test Procedure for Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay:

1. Check resistance between pins 85 & 86. 50Ω - 200Ω is normal.
2. Confirm continuity between pins 30 & 87A; a value of ~1.2Ω is typical. An audible buzz from the meter should be heard.
3. Apply 12V power to pins 85 & 86. A healthy relay will produce an audible click as the connection is made.
4. With the relay activated, check the resistance between pins 30 & 87. The resistance should be very small, typically ~10Ω. An audible buzz from the meter should be heard.
5. With 12V power also supplied to pin 30, take a grounded 12V test light and apply this load to pin 87 and confirm current flow.

I take back my earlier comment (step 1); I said “NO continuity” because I heard no buzz from my meter. This result is normal and this test fine. The remaining steps check out fine and I now have every reason to believe that this is a good Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay.

RichBinAZ (#15) – I wasn’t 100% sure what this test entailed. I think you suggested removing clip #3 and testing the voltage to ground with key on and

• Without starter button pressed
• With starter button pressed

I just did this:

• Without starter button pressed 0.0V
• With starter button pressed 12.2V

Rweb (23) – Not sure what you mean by “box cover” (my post #9 showed that the side cover is removed to expose the components); maybe you meant just unplugging the relay from its female “box” below. I can tell that you that, having removed this Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay, the sockets were clean and electrolytic compound nicely applied to the spades.

But your suggestion to “feel” is a good one. So with everything back together and key on, I pressed the starter button. During the clicks, I feel both the Starter solenoid and the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay.

I think I’ve eliminated many factors but I might be back to your #20:
bad fuse, neutral switch, clutch switch, start switch, kill switch

In my experience, however, when the clutch isn’t pulled in or the kickstand has been down, I don’t get any clicks’ it’s just dead. (I’d actually like to just bypass/disable the kickstand switch.)

I don’t think it’s a fuse; they all look good and the bike has started intermittently.

I have more tracing to do …

 

Dose the headlight come on bright when the ignition key is switched on ? Dose the head light go off when the start button is pressed ? If yes and the bike doesn't start you probably need a new relay. Again the relay can be taken apart for inspection, the part with the writing , diagram on it can be separated , pried away from the part with the 5 spade terminals .

 

Going back to the ”rant” on my post #16 about Triumph failing to mention anywhere the headlight cut-out function, and firmly believing that such should occur (think of a Bonneville rider trying to start his bike some February morning in Fairbanks, AK), I interrupted the feed to the headlight and installed a toggle switch on the handlebar. I only turn the non-dim light when I hit the highway. This setup has worked perfectly for several years.

To assuage comments on posts #24 & #25 (and perhaps elsewhere), I acquired a new Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay.

1. When installed, the clicking symptom upon start button press persisted.
2. The bench test results for this new relay exactly matched those for the Triumph relay.

This result was completely predictable and expected.

1. To Rweb: In posts #6 & #10, you suggested bridging points #1 and #3, which I did: with the key on, it started right up !!

What puzzles me is that #1 and #3 are parts of 2 decoupled circuits. #3 is involved in the circuit to the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay (which functions as a switch), and #1 is involved in the higher amperage circuit from the Starter solenoid to the starter. The current flow in these 2 circuits is normally decoupled (separated). While I agree that the #1 to #3 bridge actuates the starter, I don’t understand why/how this is happening.

1. I attached jumper cables from my pickup and the motorcycle started right up !! (Post #1)
2. I jumpered across the 2 solenoid posts and it started right up !!! (Post #1)

Having thoroughly tested the Starter solenoid and Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay on he bench, Points A, B, & C above best isolate and define the problem, and it seems to have more to do with brute force current (especially B & C) than anything else. Something somehow seems to be preventing adequate current from delivery to the starter. I’m starting to think more about the inscrutable ECM.

I express my thanks for all helpful coments/suggestions here.

 

............. I interrupted the feed to the headlight and installed a toggle switch on the handlebar. I only turn the non-dim light when I hit the highway. This setup has worked perfectly for several years......

May I please refer you back to post #21 which was ignored......

Also, please don't do this..........

In my experience, however, when the clutch isn’t pulled in or the kickstand has been down, I don’t get any clicks’ it’s just dead. (I’d actually like to just bypass/disable the kickstand switch.)

 

BoyRacer - as to yor post #21, I just addressed this in my last post, when Isaid:
"This setup has worked perfectly for several years. "

Add to that the 3 ways (A, B, & C - above) that will "force" the bike to start.

My toggle switch is unrelated to this problem.

 

https://www.triumphrat.net/threads/strange-starting-issue.209534/post-2003981110 If above is correct , bike starts with jump from your PU you may need this bypass.

 

Rweb – With respect, your impression of “low battery voltage” doesn’t make sense, in particular with my A/B/C in mind (last post).

1. Right now, the new battery reads 12.98V. I still get the clicks upon attempts to start the bike.
2. If the battery voltage was too low, why would A and B work ??

Thanks for your explanation about the #1 to #3 jump. You say:

“Jumping from post 1 to post 3 of the solenoid is just a test, supplying 12v to energies the solenoid same as the headlight relay dose when the start button is pushed.”

By conveniently tapping #1 to energize the Starter solenoid via #3, it effectively bypasses the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay. But go back to RichBinAZ’s suggestion on #15. When I did that, I reported on my #26 post that I got 12.2V on the removed #3. I just did it again and got 12.27V.

But I got wondering: “Why remove #3 to make that reading? Why not get a reading with #3 connected to fully simulate what’s happening when the start button is presses?” I expected the same result as before but instead only got 0.32V. Does this tell us anything?

According to the ignition schematic (Service Manual, p.17.111), I might also mention that #4 (which should be a ground for that side of the relay) goes to the kickstand switch and then to the ECM. This may suggest that the ECM may something to do with the proper functioning of Starter solenoid.


Thanks for the thread you provided from June 2012. I don’t think it’s fundamentally about the same starter problem (clicks and no starter motor response), but I will review it.

 

... But go back to RichBinAZ’s suggestion on #15. When I did that, I reported on my #26 post that I got 12.2V on the removed #3. I just did it again and got 12.27V.

But I got wondering: “Why remove #3 to make that reading? Why not get a reading with #3 connected to fully simulate what’s happening when the start button is presses?” I expected the same result as before but instead only got 0.32V. Does this tell us anything?

The lower voltage from battery voltage is due to the resistance of the wires in the harness, which are likely steel not copper. IDK.
The 0.32V reading confuses me too, which is why I suggested the start button test... but you are getting voltage to the #3.
The only thing I can think of is something is happening down stream. Especially when you put a big battery to it and it works fine. What happens to the .32V when you disconnect the big starter cable from the solenoid and push the start button.
Then measure it with the big battery attached.

Could be a slowly failing solenoid - same way the ignition trigger fails intermittently
There is a small chance it could be one of the safety switches or diodes going funky in the harness - that would be a pain. May need to bypass the safety switches... essentially putting #4 directly to ground.

At least that could narrow down the search

 

As a test use a jumper to ground solenoid terminal #4 and try to start. If no change flip your toggle switch to see if the headlight comes on bright when ignition switch is on and goes off when the start button is pushed.

 

Rweb: I appreciate what you suggest about removing #4 and just connecting to ground. This may have been instructive but may be obviated by the below.

RichBinAZ: I refer you to the below.


To recap the triad of successful tests:

A. I jumpered across the 2 solenoid posts (#1 & #2) and it started right up !!
B. To effectively bypass the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay, I bridged across points #1 and #3 with the key on; it started right up !!
C. I attached jumper cables from my pickup and the motorcycle started right up !!

In my last post, I wrote:

Having thoroughly tested the Starter solenoid and Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay on he bench, Points A, B, & C above best isolate and define the problem, and it seems to have more to do with brute force current (especially B & C) than anything else. Something somehow seems to be preventing adequate current from delivery to the starter. I’m starting to think more about the inscrutable ECM.

I put current in bold for a reason.

Note also that I wrote:

Finally, according to the ignition schematic (Service Manual, p.17.111), I might also mention that #4 (which should be a ground for that side of the relay) goes to the kickstand switch and then to the ECM. This may suggest that the ECM may something to do with the proper functioning of Starter solenoid.

I’ve been trying to get to causality. When I consider the 3 tasks that allow me to reliably activate the starter, it’s interesting that A&B (1&2) momentarily bypass the Starter/Headlight Cut-out relay, and possibly significantly, the ECM. I remain suspicious that the ECM – at least after 7 years of normal starting behavior – has decided to inspect not only for battery voltage but perhaps battery amperage output. That is what all the symptoms reported in this thread point to. I also note that, as near as I can tell (Triumph never bothered to mention this spec in its Service Manual of Owner’s Handbook), the OEM battery was rated at 180cca. The new AGM battery was so rated, but hasn’t been able to deliver reliable starts (more later).

Based on forums I’ve visited, the starting dilemma I’m reporting here has been experienced by Bonneville riders through out North America and Europe, and I suspect is well known to at least one guy at the Triumph factory in Hinkley. If that location was in America, I’d approach directly to find the real cause of this problem.

While not elucidating causality, but believing that the problem has most to do with current, my ultimate task yesterday was as follows:

I obtained a Li+ ion battery rated at 500cca to replace and AGM better rated at 180cca:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CNT56YJL?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title&th=1

When installed, the Bonneville started right up and I followed this with successive starts at approximately hourly intervals; I let it run for 2-3 minutes at a time. Note that during this time, the a Li+ ion battery was NOT on a charger. It began at 14.45V and after the 10th start last night, had dropped to 13.30V. I put the trickle charger on it overnight and it checked out at 14.50V this morning. And it started right up !!

This problem remains a dilemma in terms of real causality but I’ve followed symptoms to guide me in getting to a scenario that actually facilitated successful starts.

 

It would have been good if you done as suggested in post # 34 with the original battery and reported the results, interesting if not helpful. A lot of info on this thread indicates Lo battery voltage or resistance in the circuit that supplies 12 V to post #3 on the solenoid, or you need to do the by pass shown in post # 32.

Good Luck.

 

It would have been good if you done as suggested in post # 34 with the original battery and reported the results, interesting if not helpful. A lot of info on this thread indicates Lo battery voltage or resistance in the circuit that supplies 12 V to post #3 on the solenoid, or you need to do the by pass shown in post # 32.

Good Luck.

Options:

1. Lo battery voltage.
2. Resistance in the circuit that supplies 12 V to post #3 on the solenoid.
3. You need to do the by pass shown in post # 32.

I personally vote for Option 2 as the toggle switch is unrelated to this problem and "This setup has worked perfectly for several years."