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Further thoughts on intake air temperature

36K views 49 replies 17 participants last post by  Forchetto  
#1 · (Edited)
This is a follow-up to update observations made on this thread:

http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/136072-airbox-intake-air-temperature-free-power.html

Where I commented on my concerns regarding airbox-inside temperatures and their theoretical and real effect on power output and driveability. I'll repeat the old rule of thumb that states that for every 10ÂşF increase in intake air temperature the engine loses 1% power.

Further tests with a temperature probe inserted deep inside the throttle body have shown me that once you're on the move over 20-30kmh the air actually ingested by the engine is at only a slightly higher temperature that the ambient air. It just doesn't get time to heat-up inside the engine-heat-soaked airbox like I originally supposed.

However the IAT (intake temperature sensor), which is fitted to the far wall opposite the airfilter lid and tucked away deep inside the box, remains far too hot due to heat soak and thermal inertia. It doesn't really benefit from the cooling airflow on its way to the engine.

This was determined by riding around with the OBDII scanner permanently connected to the bike. This scanner reads various parameters in real time and real units, and shows that the IAT sensor is nothing more than a thermometer informing the ECM of the incoming air temperature.

Image


On speed-density systems such as our Keihin EFI, this sensor together with the MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensors, serve to work out the amount and density of air being drawn into the engine at any one time. This, as well as other inputs from other sensors, sets the amount of fuel injected and ignition advance.

The IAT sensor is vital in this role as it can also retard the ignition timing in high intake air temperature conditions: If it senses the air is hot it reduces the strengh of the mixture and can retard the timing to avoid detonation. Warm air makes the mixture more prone to detonation. Weakening the mixture and retarding the timing hurts power.

It follows that the reading it sends to the ECM must be accurate and in its present position it is not. The air inside the airbox and the sensor itself, even in cool ambient of 60-70ÂşF is at more than 30ÂşF higher with the OEM snorkel fitted, and it reduces to 20ÂşF higher with the snorkel removed and a Polaris bellmouth in place. This helps lower the temperature of the ingested air, but the sensor itself remains at a high temperature, telling the ECM lies.

The problem of heat soak and hot air flow from the engine towards the airbox area is so acute that even experimentally installing the IAT sensor on a bracket outside the airbox leaves it reading 84ÂşF when the ambient air is at 70ÂşF like on my last test. Hot engine air just gathers inside the right hand cover.

Image


Based on a well-trodden path taken by car tuners where the IAT sensor can atain tremendously high temperatures when trundling through dense traffic, I decided on what I thought was the obvious: Re-locate the IAT sensor to a place where it measures the real air temperature as it goes into the airbox.

The mod was quite easy. An extended wiring loom has to be made and routed to the new position, and the sensor was attached to an existing plastic tab on the airbox filter lid. The original holes left by the sensor on the airbox wall have to be plugged, of course. The sensor element itself is totally encased in plastic and quite impervious to water and dust, by the way.

The readings the IAT is now sending to the ECM are more or less accurate. This richens the mixture accordingly and results in more "pep" from the engine.

Image


I can't prove this on a dyno as there are none around here, but the gains can be felt in driveability, hill-climbing and top-gear acceleration, as well as clean pulling from as low as 1500 rpm.

The calibrated potentiometer that can be seen in one of the photos was an experiment to manually correct the temperature readings by inserting varying amounts of resistance in series with the IAT. This works well, but you have to keep changing these values with different ambient temperatures to get the full benefit.

With the IAT in its final position we don't need it, and the sensor retains its ability to compensate and adjust for varying temperatures as normal.

If you wanted to retain the snorkel, then a hole could be drilled in it to enable the sensor tip to fit inside and monitor the temperature there rather than at the back of the airbox.

Of course all this trouble could be avoided by removing the airbox altogether, and I suspect a great deal of the power gains by doing that are atributable to the cooler air, and on EFI models by keeping the sensor cool as well, but I'm as stubborn as a Spanish mule...

This mod was followed by the removal and by-pass of the O2 sensors from the system. The engine no longer operates in closed-loop with the sensors interfering with the fuelling. I'm so happy with this: No snatch or low speed surging and bucking, and, together with the chain adjusted to the latest factory specs (15-30mm), the bike feels just like a well-carburetted one...:)

The procedure for O2 sensor bypass and removal is a bit more involved and I'd rather not go into it here for fear of being accused of single-handedly causing Global warming by the sanctimonious, holier-than-thou crowd...:).

I'll get through a couple of tankfuls to see what effect all this has on fuel consumption and report back.
 
#3 ·
I'm a bit concerned about fuel consumption although so far it doesn't seem too bad, maybe because the engine seems to require less throttle for the same sort of speed. I might be imagining this but I seem to be able to change up earlier, for example.

The ECM has tune 20264 for the Arrow 2 into 2 system.
 
#5 ·
Bravo Forchetto! Another terrific post! :Dance02

Moreover, you have answered the question of why airbox removal produces greater power and driveability, which I always found counterintuitive. Thank you for the great work!
 
#6 ·
02 sensors gone

Forchetto, well done sir,

I'll be doing this now, already followed your lead on the crankcase breather. Pieman bypassed the low end closed loop function at my last 'off the bike' Tuneboy remap, I then removed the 02 sensors when I re- fitted the ecm. That one thing provided the biggest improvement of all in the way the bike runs, of all the things I've done, the low to mid- range running is so much better now, especially where it's needed most. I ran my bike in top gear along the prom at Ayr, over speed bumps too every 100 yards or so, with the motor barely above idle and had complete throttle control. That was riding on the throttle, no cheating by dabbing the clutch or brake. You must know what I'm talking about since you've done the same. So are you saying that the intake air sensor relocation improves this even more?

I admire the Triumph engineers for trying their best to make the bikerun as well as it does on fresh air, but it runs so much better with a wee bit of petrol added. I know lots of folks won't want to mess with their ecm and warranty, but I think a 'Q' will be forming at Pieman's door for his Tuneboy remap service once they're past that. I really like the 57lb/ft I've got, but the best improvements I think I have are all the little ones added up that make the bike run so well low down for day to day riding. I don't know too much about consumption yet, my bike's been on blocks for a few days while I wait for my hubs to come back from the powder coaters, but I'll post on that in due course.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Forchetto, well done sir,

I'll be doing this now, already followed your lead on the crankcase breather. Pieman bypassed the low end closed loop function at my last 'off the bike' Tuneboy remap, I then removed the 02 sensors when I re- fitted the ecm. That one thing provided the biggest improvement of all in the way the bike runs, of all the things I've done, the low to mid- range running is so much better now, especially where it's needed most. I ran my bike in top gear along the prom at Ayr, over speed bumps too every 100 yards or so, with the motor barely above idle and had complete throttle control. That was riding on the throttle, no cheating by dabbing the clutch or brake. You must know what I'm talking about since you've done the same. So are you saying that the intake air sensor relocation improves this even more?

I admire the Triumph engineers for trying their best to make the bikerun as well as it does on fresh air, but it runs so much better with a wee bit of petrol added. I know lots of folks won't want to mess with their ecm and warranty, but I think a 'Q' will be forming at Pieman's door for his Tuneboy remap service once they're past that. I really like the 57lb/ft I've got, but the best improvements I think I have are all the little ones added up that make the bike run so well low down for day to day riding. I don't know too much about consumption yet, my bike's been on blocks for a few days while I wait for my hubs to come back from the powder coaters, but I'll post on that in due course.
I did the sensor re-location first and although the low-speed running was a little bit better, the biggest improvement came with the O2 sensor removal.

As the existing map still has O2 sensor targets as shown in green on this image of the Arrow 2-2 map:
http://www.telecable.es/personales/amvelectronica/triumph/arrow2into2tune20264highlighted.jpg

and I have no tuneboy or Power Commander, I had to take a risk by inserting some resistors in the O2 connectors to pretend to the ECM that the sensors were still there. I don't know if I got the right values or anything, there's virtually no info on Bonnevilles and the Dynojet O2 sensor eliminators sold by the likes of Triumph-online.co.uk are totally useless for us, I mean the ones advertised are not even the right bloody connector...:mad: had to send them back.

http://www.triumph-online.co.uk/dynojet-oxygen-eliminator-o2-sensor-bypass-2140-p.asp

I had to devise my own. At first I installed just some 330 Ohm resistors to substitute the O2 heater circuits and it worked at first, but I did an ECM reset by disconnecting the battery for a while and then the MIL light came on. Had to add another 1000 Ohm resistor on to the sensors signal terminals.

This cured it, but I'm unsure what the map defaults to when the sensors are not sending any signal. They can't, as they're in one of my drawers now and have been replaced by M12 x1.25 x10 bolts and copper washers...:D
 
#9 ·
Just a thought Forchetto, but Triumph may have taken in to account the higher temps in the airbox and there maybe an offset with the temp control in the ECU.

The O2 sensors are the biggest pain when trying to get EFI bikes running right. They are used for closed loop operation up to 6% throttle opening to get the bikes through the manufacturers emission tests, they are of no benefit to the rider. 6% and below throttle opening is the area we have trouble with smooth running on OEM bikes, it shows up as a snatchy throttle. Once you carry out any induction mods this problem gets worse with the AFR getting up to 16 or 17 and misfires through leanness.

All of my tunes have the O2 sensors disabled and as they are disabled you don't need resistors to try and simulate them. With the sensors disabled the EFI runs purely on the fuel maps which takes control back and enables you to run richer AFR's below the 6% throttle opening and thus have smoother throttle control and better running.
 
#10 ·
Thanks Pieman. This makes me feel a bit better about removing the O2 sensors. I can't help feeling a bit worried about removing what appears to be a vital component.

It does surprise me that Triumph didn't see the problem with the IAT sensor, but apparently this apparent error is also common on many cars where the sensors are buried deep in the intake system and are even "cooked" by exhaust manifolds, especially in stop-go traffic.

Re-location of these is a common mod, together with "cold air intake kits" that funnel cold air from the front of cars for considerable power and driveability gains.

I suppose that in the Winter the fuel consumption will get worse as the sensor will be sending a very low temperature signal to the ECM and this will richen things up a lot.
 
#11 ·
Fochetto, thanks for posting your IAT findings. All these small gains begin to add up to a better running Bonneville. I am still wondering, however, about eliminating the O2 sensors. I believe that Pieman is right that eliminating them will make the bike run better at low throttle positions. But doing so also eliminates any compensatory advantage of the closed loop part of the system. In effect, the bike is running like a well tuned carb model. For many riders who use their bike as a run-about, commuter, day tripper, etc. perhaps this is of little importance. But, if the bike is to serve as a sport-tourer there would be advatage to having the bike able to adjust to changing weather conditions and altitude all of which could be encountered on the same tour. To a lesser extent all bikes could benefit from this compensation. There must be a way to make the O2 sensors tell the ECM to adjust AFR to 13 or maybe 13.5. Then the system would be working for us instead of the government and we would be able to take advantage of the EFI system. This must be much more difficult to accomplish than it is to describe or we would see such devices available. Any riders out there with knowledge of such devices?
 
#12 · (Edited)
Removing the O2 sensors won't affect the way EFI systems self-adjust to atmospheric conditions and altitude. It has other sensor's inputs for that. The barometric pressure one for example, just under the seat.

In my particular case, with Arrow exhausts and the appropiate mapping for that, the O2 sensor had only a very limited range of action. This can be seen on this image of the map where I highlighted in green the area of throttle opening and RPM that it affected:

http://www.telecable.es/personales/amvelectronica/triumph/arrow2into2tune20264highlighted.jpg

In the standard OEM map the sensors have a much wider influence, all over the AF map. You can see this in the following map image where any "target" value of 14.5 brings the O2 sensors into action:

http://www.telecable.es/personales/amvelectronica/triumph/standardtune20187.jpg


There are devices to modify the output of the O2 sensors for a richer AF ratio. I had one for a while and it worked well, but I can't stop fiddling...:) so I removed the things altogether.

Here's an old post of mine detailing an O2 manipulator device popular with Ducatis and Harleys but not available for the Triumph due to the difficulty in obtaining suitable connectors to make it comercially viable by being "plug and play". There are some links on it to other sites explaining how it works:

http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-tec...t/twins-technical-talk/126967-help-tune-boy-or-power-commander.html#post1435900
 
#15 ·
Don't know really. The sort of cold damp morning weather that makes engines run so well due to air density, is probably negated by longer periods of choke and maybe the carb desn't really compensate as it works on volume. It still inhales the same amount of air according to throttle opening, its just that that air contains more oxygen.
 
#14 ·
O2 sensors / remap

ridesalot,

I've binned the 02 sensors, but not without a fight. I thought along the same lines as yourself and asked Pieman to try and work with them during the re-mapping of my bike, you'd have to ask Mike exactly why this proved so difficult. We gave them a fair chance, but they proved to be a hindrance rather than a help. My bike goes so well now, I couldn't bring myself to put the closed loop gubbins back on. Others arrived at the same place as we did using pclll, it also doesn't use the 02 sensors to achieve good running. Whatever the theoretical benefits of the 02/closed loop, there is too much empirical evidence now that it's a handicap on our efi bikes.
 
#16 ·
Forchetto and johnyC, perhaps you are right about the lack of need for the 02 sensors and closed loop operation. Since the 02 sensors provide the only imput which occurs after the combustion event, they may be there as a fail safe to insure that after all is said and done the 14.7 AFR is maintained.

Comparing the the stock map with the 20264 which Forchetto included in his post, the factory must have put a lot of time into determining the best AFR at each intersection on the graph in achieving their lean goals for the stock bikes. It can also be seen that the closed loop mode has a much larger role to play. By contrast, the 20264 map gets a 13.00 almost across the graph providing for good performance.

Forchetto and johnyC, since you have eliminated 02 sensors did you remap the lower left portion of the map to conform more with the 13.5 or 13 targets?

Forchetto, the Fat Duc Manipulator is very interesting. If used with the stock map it could have a big influence on improving how well the Bonnevilles run. For $160 it would be a relatively inexpensive performance gain. Don't know how difficult the splice job would be. It wouldn't, however, be of much use with the 20264 map for the reasons you have shown.
 
#17 ·
Forchetto and johnyC, since you have eliminated 02 sensors did you remap the lower left portion of the map to conform more with the 13.5 or 13 targets?

Forchetto, the Fat Duc Manipulator is very interesting. If used with the stock map it could have a big influence on improving how well the Bonnevilles run. For $160 it would be a relatively inexpensive performance gain. Don't know how difficult the splice job would be. It wouldn't, however, be of much use with the 20264 map for the reasons you have shown.
I don't have the means of doing that, but I suspect Pieman has supplied Johny with a new set of figures on his map.

Splicing the manipulator is not difficult, it's just that it ruins the nice OEM cable loom to the sensors by cutting and crimping the resistor potential divider in there. The ideal would be with the OEM connectors, but I suspect the chap has given up on them as I've heard no more on the subject.

It would work with the standard map, what would happen is that any 14.5:1 AFR targets would in effect become 13.5:1 or whatever you adjusted the manipulator to.
 
#18 ·
Intrepid investigation/discovery of the IAT findings. Makes the fueling issues (and the remedies) understandable for non-technical savvy individuals like myself.
Really appreciate it Forchetto (et al).
Ted
 
#19 ·
sound like the efi on these bikes is kinda crude not much better then carbs as far as knowing what the real a/f ratio is.Dont sound like the O2 sensor even tells the puter what the a/f ratio is when it needs to know it.There for i dont see how any of the other sensors can tell what the a/f is when its not right.Map sensor cant do that.With or with out the O2 sensor looks like to me all you can do is get the a/f map close enough to run fair in all condtions .Just like carbs if you set it right at sea level it will be rich in the high country.Stock for stock the only way the efi makes more power is the throttle body flows more then the stock carbs.I will keep my flat slides for now lol.
 
#20 · (Edited)
"sound like the efi on these bikes is kinda crude not much better then carbs as far as knowing what the real a/f ratio is."
... Thats quite a conjecture but not an unexpected one from an inferiority complexed carb user :).


"Dont sound like the O2 sensor even tells the puter what the a/f ratio is when it needs to know it."
...... thats because the o2 sensor doen't tell the 'puter' what the a/f ratio is, rather it sends a voltage that the ecu uses with other sensor inputs to determine what the a/f is.


"There for i dont see how any of the other sensors can tell what the a/f is when its not right."
......Does not follow, there is no indication that the o2 sensor is sending wrong info, where did you get that idea?



"Map sensor cant do that.With or with out the O2 sensor looks like to me all you can do is get the a/f map close enough to run fair in all condtions."
.....Barmp! wrong again! ...runs much better than "fair in all conditions", thats a carb you are describing, ...the ecu determines precise sensor inputs and digitally processes them to provide A precise output based on present conditions, the very thing a carb cannot do.

."Just like carbs if you set it right at sea level it will be rich in the high country."
.... BARMP! WRONG AGAIN. see sensors.

"Stock for stock the only way the efi makes more power is the throttle body flows more then the stock carbs."
....... WRONG. Ask those who have ridden a stock carb bonnie and a stock efi bonnie and they invariably note that the efi bike is much snappier.


"I will keep my flat slides for now lol."
...... = "I will keep my horse and carriage for now, those motor cars are a joke lol."

[/unquote]

:) :) :) :)
 
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#21 ·
I fly a Cessna 182 with a manual mixture control. We have to have mixture control to lean as we climb into thinner air. It runs so lean in cold winter air (even S. Texas winter air) that I sometimes have to richen the mixture further than is possible with the mixture control. I do that by adding carb heat which flows air across the exhaust system into the carburetor. Hotter air richens the mixture considerably. We adjust the fuel mixture by using an exhaust gas temperature gauge. Peak power is about 125 degrees rich of peak EGT but it uses a lot of gas. Below 65% power, I can lean to the edge of roughness, sometimes as far as peak egt. Leaning beyond peak is very economical, but pretty much requires a fuel injected engine, because the fuel distribution in a 6 cyl carb engine with different length intakes is bad. So, yes, you will be getting more gas in cold weather, but I suspect that you won't be burning any more fuel because the throttle won't have to be open as far to get the same HP.
 
#22 · (Edited)
ridesalot,

You can have a look at the a/f charts in this thread, from my last dyno run:
http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/135545-efi-pieman-remap.html
it shows things a bit on the rich side of 13 at low revs on small throttle openings, maybe that's why it goes better down there? I'm not bothered, I'm delighted with the way my bike now runs. Ideally the Tuneboy would be set up on a dyno on the bike, but Pieman has done really well with my ecm on his bench. Sofiaspin had his efi Thruxton done on the same dyno by the same operator as did my testing, but using a pclll rather than a Tuneboy. He hasn't posted on here for a while though, so I'm not sure how that went, other than it cost more than twice what the Pieman remap cost me.

Forchetto,

I didn't literally throw the sensors in the bin, I put them in a drawer. If they're any use to you, even just to rob the connectors off them, you're welcome to them. Just pm me your address and I'll post them out, there's no chance they'll be getting re-fitted to my bike.

ps. Lucky,
I asked for a carb'd bike when I got this one, but there weren't any new ones left at my dealer or at Triumph. I got the efi because it was an early unsold bike and I got a good deal on it. I much prefer simple, ideally I'd like a Joe Hunt mag' for the sparky bit and a pair of carbs, but not the horrible cv type, something like this:
Image

I put a pair of Del' Orto pumpers on a bmw R100R I had, in place of the Bing cv's, and the bike was transformed.
 
#23 ·
I didn't literally throw the sensors in the bin, I put them in a drawer. If they're any use to you, even just to rob the connectors off them, you're welcome to them. Just pm me your address and I'll post them out, there's no chance they'll be getting re-fitted to my bike.
Many thanks for the offer. I ran with some home-made O2 manipulators for quite a while so I've already ruined the wiring to them, but I won't be using them now, I prefer to run without the O2 sensors in.

Might do the Pieman bit and get the low end of the map tweaked a bit though...:) Without the sensors I've no idea what the AFR defaults to in that area of the map.

I've checked my fuel consumption yesterday, worked out at 51 mpg. This either means that the mods haven't done any harm or that I'm riding it like a district nurse would...:eek:
 
#26 ·
I'm not trying to "pour gasoline" on the fire here and I greatly respect what MikeinVA has accomplished with his mods, however the main reason why EFI versions of engines produce more power, economy and driveability, than "identical" carbureted engines is:

  • the percentage of the intake path that handles wet flow is significantly shorter, and
  • the size of the fuel droplets is smaller and more uniform, resulting in a faster burning mixture

The reasons this is so are covered in exhaustive detail in Kevin Cameron's "Sportbike Performance Handbook" and in an abbreviated fashion in Jim McFarland's "Enginology" column in the March, 2010 issue of Circle Track magazine.
 
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#30 ·
i think you better look again the intake path is pretty close to the same on our bikes these are not sport bikes like the guy is talking about and this is not port injection witch is much better.As far as what makes the most hp on these bike n/a .So far carbs have the record and will keep it till the after market catches up on the efi triumph twins.
I have yet to see a 904 efi n/a bike beat my 904 when it comes to hp or torque and mine is not the fastest carbed 904.
 
#27 · (Edited)
MIKEINVA WROTE:
"with no way of checking the a/f mix you dont know if you tell it to give 13to 1 if it is giveing it 13 to1 or 15 to 1."

..... Please tell us how that is any different from a carb Mike?
At least with fuel injection you CAN "check" the afr by way of an af meter and adjust MAP VALUES accordingly.

"I am no dumb azz to efi I have been a mechanic since the first efi came out on cars the only thing this sytem can do is adj for baro and temp changes."

..... WRONG AGAIN, your forgetting the utility of "maps" in all this - It uses it's sensors to adjust fueling inline with an optimum input value which it can hit quite precisely (based on the quality of the map). This can't be done with crappy flat side carbs.
CONSEQUENTLY THE FUEL INJECTED BIKE WILL RUN A FAR MORE APPLICABLE A/F RATE THAN A CARB VERSION.
THIS IS WHY LEAR JETS, F18 FIGHTERS AND MODERN RACE CARS USE FUEL INJECTION AND NOT FLATSIDE CARBS. LOL!!!

"Wait a few years till sensor start taking a crap you will wish you had simple carbs to lol.EFI is great when its working and a b--h when it screws up."
..... SAYS YOU. IF MY SENSORS GIVE ME A PROBLEM I WILL BE ABLE TO DETERMINE THE FAULT WITHIN MINUTES, WHILE YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH A TRIAL AND ERROR METHOD IN THE HOPE OF FINDING OUT WHERE AND/OR WHAT THE PROBLEM IS.
 
#31 ·
MIKEINVA WROTE:
"with no way of checking the a/f mix you dont know if you tell it to give 13to 1 if it is giveing it 13 to1 or 15 to 1."

..... Please tell us how that is any different from a carb Mike?
At least with fuel injection you CAN "check" the afr by way of an af meter and adjust MAP VALUES accordingly.

"I am no dumb azz to efi I have been a mechanic since the first efi came out on cars the only thing this sytem can do is adj for baro and temp changes."

..... WRONG AGAIN, your forgetting the utility of "maps" in all this - It uses it's sensors to adjust fueling inline with an optimum input value which it can hit quite precisely (based on the quality of the map). This can't be done with crappy flat side carbs.
CONSEQUENTLY THE FUEL INJECTED BIKE WILL RUN A FAR MORE APPLICABLE A/F RATE THAN A CARB VERSION.
THIS IS WHY LEAR JETS, F18 FIGHTERS AND MODERN RACE CARS USE FUEL INJECTION AND NOT FLATSIDE CARBS. LOL!!!

"Wait a few years till sensor start taking a crap you will wish you had simple carbs to lol.EFI is great when its working and a b--h when it screws up."
..... SAYS YOU. IF MY SENSORS GIVE ME A PROBLEM I WILL BE ABLE TO DETERMINE THE FAULT WITHIN MINUTES, WHILE YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH A TRIAL AND ERROR METHOD IN THE HOPE OF FINDING OUT WHERE AND/OR WHAT THE PROBLEM IS.

Anyway it was obvious by your initial troll posting in this thread that you were attempting to take the piss, so if you can take it don't deal it out. :)
p.s. the correct spelling of "dumb azz" is actually dumb ass. :D
YEA i guess you know more about making hp on these bikes then I do and I havent learne a thing in 35 years.I just tell it like I see it .I sure hope you dont blow me off the road with your fast efi bike.And was trying to be nice asshole .Did I spell that right?
 
#29 ·
Efi...

It's just different technology. I know carbs backwards. I can assemble an Amal carb in the dark in a blackout at the bottom of a mineshaft at midnight, but EFI is fairly new to me.
However, i'm having a good time finding out about maps, A/F ratios and Tuneboy tunes with my '09 Bonny.

I'm actually starting to really like EFI because it's so precise and tuneable once you get the hang of it.


S.
 
#33 ·
simple

guys, settle down now,

I've got a foot in both camps here, I prefer the older bikes but I've got an efi one. I've quite enjoyed the tinkering with it so far, although I wasn't that happy with having to send bits of for specialist attention, I prefer fixing stuff myself.

I remember on the series 'Long Way Round' when they toasted the abs unit on Claudio's (the camera man) bmw gs adventure, welding up the busted subframe without disconnecting the battery properly. The bike was deid, no use to man nor beast and there wasn't a bmw dealer handy in Mongolia.

So for less than the cost of an abs unit, they bought a brand new stroker utility motorbike, which Claudio then proceeded to embarrass the stars and their beemers with. Of course it broke now and again, on one occasion it was repaired with a hammer and screwdriver by two local chaps at the side of the road, they called it the red devil, here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygJfKs48xaM
 
#35 ·
sorry prop I should not of spelled it out started off trying to be pc till i was called on my spelling.I didnt plan on making anyone mad was just telling what I see.Was not knocking anyones bike ether just making a point that the efi on our bikes is not as advanced as some of the other bikes and not alot better then carbs.Alot of guys think efi is all high hp.But truth be known most motors that make the high hp numbers dont have throttle boy injection they have port injection that is way better at making hp then carbs or TBs.On these bikes air flow is everything when it comes to making hp.The TB flow alittle better then stock carbs there for they make more hp.At wot in the max hp rpm tb and carbs that flow the same with the right a/f will make dang near the same hp on these bikes.At the point where you make hp the a/f can be fixed at the right ratio and it wont make a hill of beans.lol and for pie man my buddy .If you put a good mag with points that dont bounce and the right timing you will make the same hp as a ecu .drag cars prove that pretty much.As far as efi getting the a/f right if you dont work up a custom map as pie man is doing and put it on the dyno and check where that puts your a/f you dont know what you have.On more advanced systems they use better o2 sensors and more of them those systems can put a/f pretty near spot on.with out good o2 output your system doesnt have a clue where the a/f mix is,no better then a carb does,it can change it as baro changes but if its not where the sytem thinks it is its doing you no good at all.Once you get good flat slide carbs as some of us have and learn to find the jetting thats middle of the road it will work pretty much day in and day out just like the efi bikes do.Thats the point i ment to make.
 
#38 · (Edited)
sorry prop I should not of spelled it out started off trying to be pc till i was called on my spelling.I didnt plan on making anyone mad was just telling what I see.Was not knocking anyones bike ether just making a point that the efi on our bikes is not as advanced as some of the other bikes and not alot better then carbs.Alot of guys think efi is all high hp.But truth be known most motors that make the high hp numbers dont have throttle boy injection they have port injection that is way better at making hp then carbs or TBs.On these bikes air flow is everything when it comes to making hp.The TB flow alittle better then stock carbs there for they make more hp.At wot in the max hp rpm tb and carbs that flow the same with the right a/f will make dang near the same hp on these bikes.At the point where you make hp the a/f can be fixed at the right ratio and it wont make a hill of beans.lol and for pie man my buddy .If you put a good mag with points that dont bounce and the right timing you will make the same hp as a ecu .drag cars prove that pretty much.As far as efi getting the a/f right if you dont work up a custom map as pie man is doing and put it on the dyno and check where that puts your a/f you dont know what you have.On more advanced systems they use better o2 sensors and more of them those systems can put a/f pretty near spot on.with out good o2 output your system doesnt have a clue where the a/f mix is,no better then a carb does,it can change it as baro changes but if its not where the sytem thinks it is its doing you no good at all.Once you get good flat slide carbs as some of us have and learn to find the jetting thats middle of the road it will work pretty much day in and day out just like the efi bikes do.Thats the point i ment to make.
Yeah Cool Mike :) Thanks for clarifying above what you really meant your posts to mean. I see now how I misunderstood. Sorry you had to get mad. No else did.
 
#37 ·
utility muffin motorbike

Forchetto,

I hope you can tolerate one more digression from intake air temperature :D but since I squeezed in the simple 2stroke motorbike, I'd like to just mention the departure of my own. The Beamish Suzuki I rebuilt this winter is off tomorrow, to a more noble future than riding round my garden. Jim Evans, secretary of the Beamish owners club, is going to be competing in twinshock trials with her.

the epitome of simple, so long wee bike
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