Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums banner

Airbox intake air temperature...Free power

2 reading
29K views 41 replies 19 participants last post by  RaceDweeb  
#1 · (Edited)
Here we go again. Forchetto opens a new thread with the words "Free power" to make us look at it and swallow some farcical theory or impractical mod. :)

This is just for those few of us left with our airboxes intact and not ripped out or butchered and thrown over a hedge. About half a dozen judging by the posts...Just think that in 50 years time some sad bastard that has dedicated the last 6 years of his life to restoring a Bonnie to an absolutely original and concours condition, will curse you for losing that airbox. They will become collectors items and will go for 1000's on ebay or probably in antique shops and archeologists...

Some time ago I started a thread trying to show that a small proportion of the power gains noted by removing the airbox could have been due to the enforced re-routing of the crankcase breather so that it didn't vent its foul and greasy fumes into the intake. If you want to read that its here.

This thread will try to show that a considerable proportion of the gains come from exposing the air intakes and filters to the fresh air rather than the enclosed and superheated atmosphere inside the airboxes, not just from the improved efficiency in airflow into the carbs or throttle bodies.

To start with we must remember the fact that hotter air is less dense and contains less oxygen by volume. It's desirable that the intake air temperature is as cold as possible to optimize combustion efficiency. This is well-known and it's not open to question. An old rule of thumb states that for every 5ÂşC (about 10ÂşF)increase in intake air temperatures we lose at least 1% in power/torque.

A further less well-known power loss that will affect EFI bikes, is that the IAT (Intake Air Temperature) sensor informs the engine management of this increased temperature and the computer "pulls" or retards the ignition advance to avoid detonation. This is because hotter air encourages pre-ignition or detonation, very damaging to an engine. The threshold when this takes place varies with different systems but can be as low as 30ÂşC (86ÂşF), and the total ignition retardation is typically 3 degrees.

Some of you with Tuneboys and other software that can display FI maps, can confirm these specific figures for our EFI bikes by looking for the map of Intake air temperature plotted against Manifold absolute pressure and letting us know. An example of this map on another vehicle is shown here:

Image


I have long suspected that this problem was acute on our bikes by just feeling the temperature of components, including the airbox, that live behind the engine and noting how high it was. I reason the airbox acts as a low temperature oven diluting the incoming air charge excessively. To make matters worse the standard snorkel pipe faces forward and is forced to breathe hot engine cooling air which is rammed behind the left-hand side panel. This is obvious as soon as you feel how warm this panel gets, even after a short run.

I've taken some measurements to show this, as follows:

I have chosen two cold days, 14ÂşC (57ÂşF), to carry out tests using a dual-probe thermometer. One probe inserted inside the airbox, the other in open air and even after a relatively short run (10 and 25 km) over the same ground at the same speeds, and starting from cold the readings were:

After 10 km the airbox air was at 9.5ÂşC over ambient, after 25 km 15ÂşC over, meaning a possible 3-4% power loss.

The next day I replaced the snorkel with the famous Polaris bellmouth to see if this was any better:

After 10 km the airbox was at 5ÂşC over ambient, after 25 km just 10ÂşC over, better, but still a 2-3% power loss.

This confirms what we all suspected, the Polaris bellmouth does improve things, not just because of any airflow properties, but because not facing forwards it draws in less hot air than the OEM snorkel. Once again, this was done on a cold day and for a shortish distance. Imagine the readings on a hot summers day and a longer run. The power and driveability losses must be considerable.

If we don't fancy airbox removal, what can be done to improve this and avoid losing significant performance due to overheated intake air?.

In cars, ducts are used to bring cold air from the front of the vehicle, or in some muscle cars from the top of the hood. This is impractical on our bikes because of lack of space.

Ideally we could do with one of the comercially available bellmouths to be extended through an opening in the side panel and exposed to outside air flow. It would have to be carefully shaped or faired to avoid a sucking out effect due to the air rush past it. Or perhaps a hole cut-out of the same panel to enable the Polaris bellmouth to draw air through it and perhaps a wire mesh guard to stop bugs, etc from diving into the airbox.

I think it's Pieman that has done this, I've seen a photo somewhere.

A small improvement could conceivably be made by fitting a deflector to stop engine hot air from sneaking past the side panel into the intake and even fabricating a heat proof bulkhead to insulate the airbox forward wall from the hot air blast.

The power and driveability loss through retarded timing by the IAT will be dealt with in a future post, after I've gathered some more data from the maps, specially the IAT v Manifold pressure one.

Any thoughts?
 
#3 ·
Air Induction

If this is all so, I would think the only source of cool fresh air would be from the front of the bike forward of the motor.
An air induction system much like those you mentioned from the muscle car era could be in order.
Running two hoses or some type of ducts along the bottom of each side of the tank might work. This could be easily fabricated out of some vacuum cleaner hose.
It could give you some forced cool air for your experiment.
If it shows to be an improvement then comes the hard part of making a design that looks clean, discreet and doesn't transform a stock looking Bonneville into a more modified experimental land speed record breaker.
 
#4 ·
Good post. Being a retired engineer, I appreciate the gathering and use of data to quantify what's going on. Count me as another who still has the airbox on my 09. I have installed a Polaris bellmouth, K&N filter, and removed the internal baffle, but the box is still there. At this time, I don't have plans to remove it. Fresh air ducted to the airbox from the front of the fairing is standard fare on most sportbikes and all Superbike and Moto GP racers. The benefits are both cooler air and a positive pressure in the airbox from the ram air effect of speed. As has been said, the key on a Bonneville is finding a way to do it that looks good. I'm staying tuned.
 
#6 ·
If the Speedy configuration is like the Bonnie, the crankcase breather is still dumping hot gasses into the airbox. Better than the Bonnie though. The intake on my CBX is also under the seat and facing the rear bringing cooler air to all six carbs. I think Honda did this with many motorcycles in the 80s.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Some of you with Tuneboys and other software that can display FI maps, can confirm these specific figures for our EFI bikes by looking for the map of Intake air temperature plotted against Manifold absolute pressure and letting us know.
Good post Forchetto and interesting reading on the air temps in the air box. Unfortunately, the twins don't have a IAT vs. MAP table in the ECM using the TuneBoy software, so no info is forthcoming on that score.
 
#11 ·
what if getting the air from in front of the bike is the wrong angle? Obviously the best and fresh will be coming at it, but the plumbing will significantly increase the distance it has to travel, the temperature of that plumbing will increase the temp, unless you insulate it, now your talking about some ugly looking plumbing.

What kind of air-flow is between the back tire and the fender?

If you were to create a scoop that came out of the back of the airbox right in front of the rear wheel, and went down towards the ground you might be able to angle it in such a way that your pulling somewhat cooler air from closer to the ground, and increasing the volume you can pull into the airbox at the same time. It would be good to screen it from debris, it would have to face downward to prevent the rear-wheel from spraying water into it, but could considerably increase air-flow and reduce temperature by bringing it from a path that doesn't have to flow over the engine.

That being said, asphalt does get fairly warm and would do some level of preheating to the air, but at least you wouldn't be pulling from across a hot-engine as much.

Just a thought.
 
#15 · (Edited)
a question or two for those in the know.
i initially thought you were saying that the air temp sensor might be telling the engine that its getting warmer air than it really is, but if the air temp sensor is located where the air inlets are, well this isnt the case, it would be correct. so, if you moved the air temp sensor into cooler air than what is actually going into the engine, then your air/fuel mixture would be incorrect, but as others have said, you need to route cooler air to the inlets and also let the air temp sensor "read" this exact temp. heres a crazy/stupid idea, an intercooler/radiator type of setup behind the front wheel/above the oil cooler with a "heat exchanger" setup around the air inlets??

the other comment i had, the 1% loss per 5 degree's C.
I understand what youre saying, but is there a minimum temp
that makes the air/fuel mixture work negatively? Besides freezing the whole thing up
I wonder what the optimal air intake temp is?
 
#17 · (Edited)
the other comment i had, the 1% loss per 5 degree's C.
I understand what youre saying, but is there a minimum temp
that makes the air/fuel mixture work negatively? Besides freezing the whole thing up
I wonder what the optimal air intake temp is?
I think that on EFI mapping 70ºF (21ºC) is used for 0 correction, temperatures above will result in less fuel to compensate for the lower air density, and conversely temperatures below 70° will result in steadily richer (by volume) mixtures.

I didn't mention carb freezing due to excessively cold intake temperatures because no-one seems to have had the problem, at least on this forum. In any case the massive hot air blast from the engine over the carbs should keep that at bay.
 
#16 ·
I'M watching this thread, ...I'm sure Forchetto will find a way to improve air box temps and deliver unto me those few horse power I so richly deserve.
I think getting the fresh air from behind the box and down in front of the rear wheel has merit as another has mentioned.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Poking a longer mesh-protected bellmouth through the side panel seems the logical way to do it. There are lots of very attractive bellmouths around for car use if you do a search for "velocity stacks".

The thing is that airflow smoothing that can be achieved by a carefully shaped bellmouth so far from the carb or throttle intake won't matter too much. The thing is to introduce the cooler air in the air box where it calms down and is ingested by the engine. As suggested by some, any old ducting will do as long as it's big enough. The nice shape of a bellmouth is of secondary importance unless it's fitted right on the carb entrance.

Another problem is having the courage and ability to poke a huge hole through the side of the left cover and make it look good.

First I'm going to fit a deflector to the front of the side cover to see if engine-heated air can be kept out of the intake. This will just take the shape of a bit of cardboard stuck to the inside of the cover. Scientific eh?...:)

The thing is that all the tests from now on will be done using the Polaris bellmouth, as I've seen that it already improves things over the standard snorkel. No point in repeating tests using both items.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Restore

Talked me into it. I'm going to reinstall my airbox and shed the pods. Then I'm going to put my SAI back on and hook it back up along with my removed O2 sensors. I'm going to reroute the breather tube on a rod about 3 feet over my head so no secondary air can hit my airbox. I think a small airconditioner might be good installed in the side of the Airbox also. I'll look into that. Anything to try and get my bike up to 85HP. I may even shed the Dominators and reinstall the stock pipes. Naaaaaaw:laughhard

Man, Forchetto, I wished you lived next door. You'ld have more fun helping me with my mods. Interesting though. Keep that brain working. Who knows, maybe your next idea will be something I can use.
later

BTW, I did move my breather away from my pods. lol Thanks.
That free power is a real catchall, and thanks for explaining what ******* are.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Talked me into it. I'm going to reinstall my airbox and shed the pods. Then I'm going to put my SAI back on and hook it back up along with my removed O2 sensors. I'm going to reroute the breather tube on a rod about 3 feet over my head so no secondary air can hit my airbox. I think a small airconditioner might be good installed in the side of the Airbox also. I'll look into that. Anything to try and get my bike up to 85HP. I may even shed the Dominators and reinstall the stock pipes. Naaaaaaw:laughhard
LOL...I've just spent hours trying different methods of blocking the hot engine air from the airbox and it's like pissing in the wind. The only thing that works a bit is going without the side cover.

The Polaris bellmouth works best but you have to be careful when washing as its opening is just visible by the frame tube just behind the side cover.

If I cut off some side panel and fit a longer bellmouth or ducting the problem of water getting into the filter is exacerbated...

There's a way that the air can be taken out of the rear end of the bike by cutting off part of the snorkel's "trumpet" and re-installing it facing backwards. There's not much room between the snorkel and the frame tubing though.

All in all, airbox removal looks more and more attractive by the day...:mad:

I could just forget it as I'm not a speed merchant, but I like to know that the bike is running as efficiently as it can.
 
#28 · (Edited)
Believe it or not this is done regularly on amateur drag racing. Google "ice packs intake temperature" or similar.

Similarly that is the purpose of the intercooler on turbocharged trucks and rally cars, some of which even have water spray devices at the touch of a button to provide the intercooler with a quick cooling shower to increase power when its most needed. That's how important a cool intake charge is.

I won't say anymore on the matter. Have accepted that there's virtually nothing that can be done with the airbox as it is as far as cooling the charge, and will just leave the Polaris bellmouth in place as it has been shown to reduce the temperature a little (-30% at present ambient temps), and, as shown in other threads and forums, improves airflow noticeably. Pulling the snorkel and just leaving a hole there is probably just as effective though.

The next experiment will be to try and reduce the tendency for the ECM to pull back the timing with increased intake temperatures by as much as 3 degrees, by applying a well-known but controversial mod to the IAT. Manufacturers leave a safety margin in their timing maps to avoid detonation at all costs, and in all conditions the vehicle is likely to meet around their likely global markets, so getting back a couple of degrees shouldn't cause too many problems, specially if we use premium fuel.

I'll probably keep this quiet though, rather than face further ridicule...;).
 
#26 ·
I can't believe he's throwing in the towel. What about those ice paks?lol
Now I've got to pull the AB and put my pods back on, along with all the other stuff. I wish you would make up your mind.
Keep up the good work. Makes for good reading an an occasional useable idea.
After your post on the breather relocation, I looked at the cover and it was covered in an oil film, along with the bottom of my filter. Needless to say, I moved it.
Why don't you just start your 904 project and go for it. I'ld like to see the power you could generate if you put your mind in that direction.
later
 
#33 ·
I don't know why this interesting topic so abruptly died about 8 years ago, but I think I have some "fresh" observation that probably can bring it back to life: Can anyone explain how this nice setup is able to get any sort of "fresh" intake air into the combustion chamber? I'm actually amazed about how this renowned Italian company manages to get "fresh" intake air (obviously not!) from being so close to the engine while we all are struggling to get away as far as possible from it! Let me point out that this is a race breed company and their stuff is developed, tested and thoroughly used in their own race machines before any item reaches production. If it works as stated, then it contradicts everything discussed here... Are we missing something?

Image
Image
Image


Sent from my MotoG(4) using Tapatalk
 
#34 · (Edited)
this is a race breed company and their stuff is developed, tested and thoroughly used in their own race machines before any item reaches production.
Been to their site and also a general Google search. Can't find any reference to their racing success or indeed any dyno results for that product, you'd think that for a cool 503€ you'd get some proof of its effectiveness...:)

This intake kit has been discussed in a few threads, have a look at various opinions:

http://www.triumphrat.net/water-coo...-twins-technical-talk/836626-has-anyone-installed-free-spirits-air-cleaner.html

http://www.triumphrat.net/club-cafe/511825-cold-air-induction-for-thruxton.html

http://www.triumphrat.net/water-coo...ter-cooled-twins-technical-talk/854722-free-spirits-intake-for-street-twin.html
 
#36 ·
Hell, Forchetto, you're right again! There is no Free Spirits racing info that's beyond a few incursions in "Tri Days". I guess I've throw that one so lightly because I had in mind a very old racing related discussion where Free Spirits was mentioned regarding something else and for which I couldn't find nor remember the site or forum. Sorry for that. Whatever; no, I don't think that €503 make their "solution" provide any better performance, nor I like it or going that way, anyways. It's just that it caught my eye because it seems to be wrong, yet it's stated by FS as the right way. Me, I'm much more interested in your solution and the one provided by TTP, which keeps the airbox right in place. Let's face it; anything else is just about the looks; but then, "looks" are a pretty subjective concept. However... I really like FS's belt drive conversion. But that's another story.

Sent from my MotoG(4) using Tapatalk
 
#38 ·
EF,

Have you played with a BoosterPlug yet? Its an electrical add-on inserting between the air temperature sensor on the air box and the wiring harness. An additional air sensor is supplied and is zip-tied to the bike in a spot where heat will not affect it (i.e.: under the seat). It tricks the ECU into thinking its colder outside than it really is, enriching the mixture about 6%.

I've been selling them with new mufflers as an alternative to remapping. Now I don't want to start a debate over remapping or not, but I will say the results have been overwhelmingly positive. Happy customers... happy me. :)

/M

Image
 
#39 ·
EF,Have you played with a BoosterPlug yet?

Back in 2010 I wanted one and I forwarded the Booster plug people all sorts of info and data on our bikes, circuit diagrams, types of connectors and the caracterĂ­stics of the existing IAT sensor, but they didn't seem to be interested in making one available for our bikes and stopped communicating with me, so I abandoned the idea.
 
#42 ·
Back in 2010 I wanted one and I forwarded the Booster plug people all sorts of info and data on our bikes, circuit diagrams, types of connectors and the caracterĂ­stics of the existing IAT sensor, but they didn't seem to be interested in making one available for our bikes and stopped communicating with me, so I abandoned the idea.
Well, now they have them for every bike under the sun it seems. All the Triumphs. Finally getting above 40°F tomorrow, so I'm fitting one to my Ducati (my only EFI bike).

/M