Tune ECU Tuning for water-cooled Bikes - Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums
Water Cooled Twins Technical Talk Technical Talk for water cooled Triumph Twins.

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post #1 of 190 (permalink) Unread 09-24-2019, 12:02 AM Thread Starter
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So unless you guys missed it, this recently came available. I've peeked at the stock maps for everything.

Pretty standard stuff, but the 1200HP is the real wildcard as Triumph purposely left power on the table in order to have the engine have similar character to the rest and purposely limited power up top by limiting the throttle from 6500+ to just 80% to give a similar power feel to the HT and force power to fall off heavily at that point.

To get started you'll need an Android device, an OBD Link LX, MX or MX+ and Tune ECU off the Google Play Store

I've tuned my Thruxton R. I have over 40 revisions in the past week experimenting and trying to get it perfect.

I started with a stock 30042 US Map then imported Power Commander tables appropriate for my mods (decat or Headers, slip one, air filter, ported air inlet). These are available on Dynojet's website.

I ran additions and took it for a spin. The left bank was majorly rich, the right a bit lean. Technically within spec of adaptions, but I knew I could do better.

Pulled fuel out of the left until I had it to a reasonable level. Made some AFR adjustments to command 14.1. Immediately fixed any hesitation and snatchiness. Also this change corrected cylinder 2 on its own. But cylinder 1 even richer.

Made more adjustments, removed the throttle restriction up top and readded fuel where it was being pulled after 6500. Now it was obvious it had much more in it up top, relaxed the limiter to 7800. Pulls hard to that point. Stock the 1200HP is limited to 80% throttle after 6500 to force it to have a power feel like the 1200HT, because in reality it has a significantly different personality with the limiter removed.

Then I tackled the heavy popping in Deceleration and reduced it to a pleasing burble with only soft popping from 2-3k where the exhaust velocity really slows down. This was achieved by a bit more timing on decel and a bit more fuel in key areas. I didn't go overzealous because I didn't want to kill fuel economy, as I knew correcting the AFR to 14.1 for my country wide E10 fuel would already have an effect.

Through looking at other stock maps, I've determined that even though they have different numbers, they are generally identical. So I would like to share what I have come up with.

There are a few things id like to state first:

I have over 25 hours and 40 revisions into this to perfect it for my mods. That said, it's not perfect, but I put a little faith initially into Dynojet, but I also saw that they weren't perfect since cylinder 1 was crazy rich. I did work endlessly on driveability though, I'm content with my results.

If you can take my tune and improve, please do so, just share with us.

So here's my tune for the Thruxton R/Thruxton S/Speed Twin. It's easy to build more maps from my work (download your stock map, open mine, and copy my tables and paste into yours)

I built a Speed Twin US and Thruxton S NZ map just from copy and paste of my stuff as they're identical. I verified this myself.

- 900RPM idle
- 7800RPM redline
- 14.1 AFR in cruise and low throttle for driveability (no more stalling, ever again)
- 12.8-13.1 AFR on full throttle
- Up to 35į of timing under full throttle
- Greatly reduced decel popping
- Throttle limiter from 6500+ removed entirely in all modes
- Recurved fueling based on Power Commander Maps
- Recurved timing based on Power Commander Maps

REQUIRES 93 Octane/98 RON.

I hope they my hard work can help the community, but that somebody can also improve upon my start.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mbco5k3q7...rm1F9XRsa?dl=0

Last edited by TheDivaDanielle; 09-24-2019 at 12:29 AM.
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post #2 of 190 (permalink) Unread 09-24-2019, 05:25 AM
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Loads of interesting stuff here, quite fancy doing some edits to the map with tune ECU if I can trust my cheap Chinese tablet not to screw up the download halfway through and brick my ECU
How are you monitoring the AFR, have you done the fuelling changes on a dyno or on the road?
Is it possible to use the feedback from the O2 sensors via Tune ECU to monitor the afr at idle, I understand the O2 sensors don't come into play at full throttle so how do you monitor the afr then?
can you be certain that the engine is safe to run at 7800 RPM, I know that's still a relatively low speed but there is no other higher revving engine in the range to go off.
You say the throttle is reduced to 80% after 6500 RPM, do you think triumph did that to soften the impact of the rev limiter as you got close to 7000 RPM?
If you've removed this 80% restriction how easy would it be to alter the throttle mapping over the full range, equivalent to fitting a quick action throttle cam on a cable bike.?
Sorry for all the questions but this opens up a whole new world of possible modifications and also ways to completely screw up your bike of course
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post #3 of 190 (permalink) Unread 09-24-2019, 09:37 AM Thread Starter
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How am I monitoring? During an early run I set the crossover point to where it stops watching the O2 input and switches to the MAP calculations to stay on completely and compared to the stock data, and tweaked gently until it was closer to within specifications then where I started. Starting from the beginning with Dynojet's own map it was -30 and +18 on each cylinder. The entire range runs from -100 to +100. It correlates to how the requesting fueling is hitting the targeted AFR. Anywhere from -30 to +30 is ideal and within spec, but it obviously has a lot of flexibility for various conditions, temps, elevations, fuel quality, etc. I ended up with -14 in one cylinder and +0.8 in the other. That is the point in which I stopped. This is of course all part throttle up to (when I was testing around 65% throttle, after than it gets too hard because of the narrowband sensor anyway, plus the velocity might matter.

Then I reset it to slightly higher than it's original crossover point, which is set differently with different engines. Scrambler 1200 switches over somewhere in the 30s, Thruxton and Speed Twin switch over at 20%, I think the 900cc engine was somewhere after 50%. Currently my crossover point is at 25% throttle. What I'm referring to is when it stops looking at AFR/throttle/02 input and goes with MAP sensor data about the density of the air and volume which is also a valid way of ascertaining data.

That is why I noted in my initial post that I worked very tirelessly on driveability, because working with narrow band sensors on you this was at least a range where I can definitely put in a lot of work, and get immediate feedback.

As for the fueling up top like everywhere where it's commanding 12.8-13.1 AFR, I put faith in Dynojet, the company that developed the Power Commander, and used their own publicly downloadable maps for various iterations of modification, and overlayed their fueling and spark tables into my work for the MAP derived tables entirely, and for the regular 02 based tables, cylinder 2 as stated fell in right on it's own after adjusting the requested AFR, and cylinder one required some trimming. I felt that maybe Dynojet could only adjust global fueling, rather than by each cylinder, thus one being quite a bit rich.

I also had a long conversation with the boys over at Bonneville Performance, both on the phone and in person at a recent Bikes and Breakfast event. These are the guys developing the race program stuff for these bikes at a high level. According to them with very few changes beyond a camshaft, compression increase and porting of heads and going with carbs, their 1200 cc power plants were spinning 11000 RPM+. We actually discussed at great length the rev capacity of the 1200HP engine itself.

I left that conversation feeling confident that if I were ever to tune the bike and put a camshaft in it it would cope fine with revving a bit higher. Then this tuning became available a few months later, and now the door has been opened.

In none of my testing did I ever feel that the bike was revving too quickly and that I couldn't shift before the limiter. At the end of the day all I did was change the rev limiter from 7500 to 7800. I still shift at 7500. The difference is that the bike is just no longer hamstrung getting to that point.

As far as the tables for throttle input, you can freely edit them for rain mode Road mode and sport mode. I did a few edits where I made Road mode a little bit more aggressive, but in the end I decided to just let it maintain its original integrity, and I am using the stock tables, albeit with the throttle limitation up top removed.

To reiterate again what I said above in the first post, I'm no genius, I'm no engineer, I just read a lot and I know a lot, and I'm constantly learning, and striving to improve.

My work is not perfect, nor do I claim it to be. I really hope that somebody will take what I started and improve upon it greatly and give us something better.

Everything I did was tested on the road, I currently do not have the spare funds to spend on a dyno session, as my budget currently is very tight at the moment. I put faith in Dynojet and their engineers for the WOT tuning.
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Last edited by TheDivaDanielle; 09-24-2019 at 12:55 PM.
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post #4 of 190 (permalink) Unread 09-24-2019, 12:34 PM
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Hello Danielle,

I saw you on Facebook, and i am galde to see you here too.


Many many thanks for your work, for your time to build this map, and for sharing it to us.

I will use it on my thruxtonR as soon as i received my ODB LX
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post #5 of 190 (permalink) Unread 09-24-2019, 12:52 PM
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Can I use TuneECU on my 2017 Street Twin/Cup to disable the O2 sensors and nothing else? Just turn them off, and then tune the bike properly with the PC-V that I have on order?

If so, how would I do that? Connect with my BT module and Android phone, download the current map to the phone, save it, change a setting for the O2 sensors and then push to the ECU? This can be done on a newer bike without locking the ECU?
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post #6 of 190 (permalink) Unread 09-24-2019, 01:00 PM Thread Starter
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At this point, they can now tune all the watercooled bikes. You are correct on the process. It can't read the map on your bike over bluetooth, only upload to your bike.

I'm 47 reprograms into my ECU so far, it hasn't locked me out yet. Keep in mind that this can import PC-V tables, thus negating the need for one entirely. You could install it, tune your bike, get the data and sell your power commander.

Having looked at the maps for the Street Cup, without a camshaft upgrade, there is barely anything at all to be gained with a PC-V. It's camshaft limited.
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post #7 of 190 (permalink) Unread 09-24-2019, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDivaDanielle View Post
At this point, they can now tune all the watercooled bikes. You are correct on the process. It can't read the map on your bike over bluetooth, only upload to your bike.

I'm 47 reprograms into my ECU so far, it hasn't locked me out yet. Keep in mind that this can import PC-V tables, thus negating the need for one entirely. You could install it, tune your bike, get the data and sell your power commander.

Having looked at the maps for the Street Cup, without a camshaft upgrade, there is barely anything at all to be gained with a PC-V. It's camshaft limited.
I have the TEC Cam installed, K&N air filter, de-snorkel and x-Pipe installed...

Running an AFR of 11 down low, and 14.6 up top at WOT... Definitely needs a tune. Gonna do that with the PC-V but if we want to tune the closed loop area we need O2 eliminators, or simply disable them with TuneECU like I have done on older bikes that allowed it.
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post #8 of 190 (permalink) Unread 09-24-2019, 01:18 PM Thread Starter
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ah that's right! I recall seeing your stuff. I've been following it with great interest, as my first bike was a Street Scrambler, and I really admire the Street Cup.
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post #9 of 190 (permalink) Unread 09-24-2019, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDivaDanielle View Post
ah that's right! I recall seeing your stuff. I've been following it with great interest, as my first bike was a Street Scrambler, and I really admire the Street Cup.
It's a neat little bike. It makes over 100hp less at the wheel than my other bike, but I love it, it's a blast.

I just need to disable the O2 sensors so that my long time tuner can work his magic with the PC-V as he has done with 20+ of my other bikes over the years...
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post #10 of 190 (permalink) Unread 09-24-2019, 01:33 PM
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Thanks for taking time out for the very in-depth response to all my questions, I'm going to have to go through it a few times to make sure I fully understand everything and maybe do my own reading up, I might have some more questions later if that's ok.
I presume you can download these maps to your device and play about with them offline in tune ECU just to find your way around the tables and learn how to modify the data without even connecting to the bike?
The one thing that does worry me and is probably the same for a lot of people on here is doing something irreversible to the ECU, I know there are fault codes listed that relate to the the ECU being locked. Putting aside any changes I make to the maps how foolproof is the actual process of just downloading and uploading maps to and from the ECU, have you personally heard of any horror stories. I've done it years ago on my older 06 Daytona with a cable connection but obviously these latest ecu's have a lot more security aimed at preventing customers from changing the map data, either triumphs own decision or forced on them by emissions legislation.
Out of curiosity I know you've done the majority of this work without a Dyno but do you plan on putting it on the dino now it's finished to see what gains you have made and maybe double check the afr, I know you've talked a lot about the feel and drivability of the bike and this does not always show up on the dyno.
Thanks again
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