Street Scrambler - Euro 3 vs Euro 4? - Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums
Water Cooled Twins Technical Talk Technical Talk for water cooled Triumph Twins.

 10Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-21-2019, 03:34 AM Thread Starter
Gyp
Supersport 600
Main Motorcycle: R1200R Sport
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Gloucestershire, UK
Posts: 151
Other Motorcycle: Street Scrambler
Extra Motorcycle: R80RT
Street Scrambler - Euro 3 vs Euro 4?

Would I be right in thinking that the UK SS (and ST etc for that matter) up to MY 2018 were homologated to EURO 3 emissions standard, but the revised MY 2019 bikes are to EURO 4 standard?

I've confirmed that my '19 bike is EURO 4, but am struggling to find the same information about the earlier bike.

I'm simply looking at it with regard to why the Vance and Hines high level exhaust was only suitable for the Street (Twin) to VIN 914972, which I take it is the end of MY 2018. From what I've read, with the baffle and occasionally-mentioned central noise suppressor in place that exhaust is road legal.

My guess is that somehow, even with no catalytic converter, the exhaust achieves the EURO 3 emissions on the earlier bike, but it is unable to achieve Euro 4 on the later bike.

All this supposition falls apart if the earlier bike is also EURO 4...
Gyp is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-21-2019, 04:11 AM
Formula Extreme
Main Motorcycle: T100 LC
Senior Member
 
Simon64ds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: SussexCoast - UK
Posts: 682
Other Motorcycle: Street Triple R
My 2016 T100 is Euro 4, so I rather think that all the water cooled twins are. I presume that the engine/tuning changes that give the 19 models the extra power somehow don’t work well with the earlier exhaust system. It also looks like Triumph are moving away from assisting their customers to break the emissions laws, dropping the ‘off road’ tune for example, for fear of big fines.
Gyp likes this.
Simon64ds is offline  
post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-21-2019, 04:28 AM Thread Starter
Gyp
Supersport 600
Main Motorcycle: R1200R Sport
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Gloucestershire, UK
Posts: 151
Other Motorcycle: Street Scrambler
Extra Motorcycle: R80RT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon64ds View Post
My 2016 T100 is Euro 4, so I rather think that all the water cooled twins are. I presume that the engine/tuning changes that give the 19 models the extra power somehow don’t work well with the earlier exhaust system. It also looks like Triumph are moving away from assisting their customers to break the emissions laws, dropping the ‘off road’ tune for example, for fear of big fines.
As far as I can work out, the significant change for 19 was predominantly a cam change which, if it has longer durations/greater overlap, would make it harder for the bike to meet emissions. If the earlier bike scraped through with the accessory silencer, the later bike most likely wouldn't.

Of course, it may well be that they simply discovered that buyers of the "budget" Bonnies weren't up for spending £1200 on a full system and might simply find a £700 slip on more financially viable. If they were struggling to sell them, there's little point in bearing the cost of homologating them!
Gyp is online now  
 
post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-21-2019, 05:15 PM
Formula Extreme
Main Motorcycle: T100 LC
Senior Member
 
Simon64ds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: SussexCoast - UK
Posts: 682
Other Motorcycle: Street Triple R
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gyp View Post
As far as I can work out, the significant change for 19 was predominantly a cam change which, if it has longer durations/greater overlap, would make it harder for the bike to meet emissions. If the earlier bike scraped through with the accessory silencer, the later bike most likely wouldn't.

Of course, it may well be that they simply discovered that buyers of the "budget" Bonnies weren't up for spending £1200 on a full system and might simply find a £700 slip on more financially viable. If they were struggling to sell them, there's little point in bearing the cost of homologating them!
Interestingly, Hinckley insists they didn’t change the cam (presumably to kill all the jokes about them buying up stocks of the TEC version..) but made the extra power by ‘other means’.

The V&H was never legal for road use anywhere in the EU. It was supplied for ‘off road’ use only which meant it never had to meet the emissions regulations (without a cat it can’t hope to do that). Then Harley Davidson copped a big fine (huge!) for doing the same with their ‘Screaming Eagle’ parts and Triumph suddenly decided that it was safer to join the ranks of ‘responsible’ manufacturers and drop the ‘rebellious’ image. The final stocks of those high level V&H pipes were sold off ridiculously cheap.
Gyp likes this.
Simon64ds is offline  
post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-21-2019, 08:23 PM Thread Starter
Gyp
Supersport 600
Main Motorcycle: R1200R Sport
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Gloucestershire, UK
Posts: 151
Other Motorcycle: Street Scrambler
Extra Motorcycle: R80RT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon64ds View Post
Interestingly, Hinckley insists they didn’t change the cam (presumably to kill all the jokes about them buying up stocks of the TEC version..) but made the extra power by ‘other means’.
That's interesting. I'll have to do a bit more research.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon64ds View Post
The V&H was never legal for road use anywhere in the EU. It was supplied for ‘off road’ use only which meant it never had to meet the emissions regulations (without a cat it can’t hope to do that).
That makes sense. Having had a couple of the TOR pipes in the past, I'm familiar with Triumph's approach to "off-road" offerings. It would appear in that case that those offering them for sale as road legal are, how can I put it, being flexible in their interpretation of the regulations.

The statement by an eBay seller (Triumph dealer, not private individual) that "Removable baffle included, it is EC Approved and road legal with baffle in" doesn't quite line up with Triumph's installation instructions that state that it's not legal for road use.

Good to know that they've never been road legal, not simply that they're not road legal on the later bikes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon64ds View Post
The final stocks of those high level V&H pipes were sold off ridiculously cheap.
Indeed.

Last edited by Gyp; 07-21-2019 at 08:34 PM.
Gyp is online now  
post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-21-2019, 09:22 PM
Formula Extreme
Main Motorcycle: 2016 Thruxton R
Senior Member
 
retjustdad53's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 835
Other Motorcycle: 2020 BMW R ninet/5
Are at least some of the EU emission requirements counter productive?

Catalytic converters are being removed about as quick as manufacturers are putting them on.

I wonder what the percentage of offending gases were before catalytic converters and what they are after being mandated ?

Are bikes whose catalytic converters who have been removed still better or worse than those bikes who never had catalytic converters?

We all know the arguments against cats: heat, weight, performance, and sound.

My assumption is the catalytic converters are necessary to limit the offending gases but how do bikes compare to cars, trucks, buses and even lawnmowers? Are bikes a big piece are a miniscule piece?

Is removing catalytic converter on bike like breaking the speed limit by two miles per hour or is it more like 20 mph over?
retjustdad53 is online now  
post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-22-2019, 01:32 AM Thread Starter
Gyp
Supersport 600
Main Motorcycle: R1200R Sport
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Gloucestershire, UK
Posts: 151
Other Motorcycle: Street Scrambler
Extra Motorcycle: R80RT
While I don't have the answers to those questions, I have been advised that, if I were to have it tested, my 1989 air cooled & carburetted BMW twin would likely pass the NOx test for the new London Ultra Low Emissions Zone (ULEZ) which is set at Euro 3 levels, so I'm some regard the old bikes aren't that bad.

More broadly though, if were honest, the vast majority of motorcyclists are low mileage hobbyists, so the environmental impact of running the bike is minimal. Indeed, I'm pretty sure I burnt more petrol in my hire car on holiday in Florida over the last 2 weeks than I will in my Triumph in the next year or two.

I'm sure the environmental damage done manufacturing the cat on my bike will be greater than the benefit it would give in its relatively low mileage lifetime.

With the relatively low usage of bikes in the West, I tend to agree that it's not the biggest problem to be solved.

I used to think the world's least satisfying job must be standard muffler maker for HD, but as you suggest, OEM cat maker must be getting close. That said the introduction of Euro 5 from January might mean more cats stay in place; Euro 4 requires that the bike checks that any sensors fitted have not failed, Euro 5 requires a lot more sensors and requires the bike to confirm that the readings are appropriate. Removing the cat on a Triumph today won't flag an error but for new models from next year it will.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk
Gyp is online now  
post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 05:48 AM
Grand Prix 500
Main Motorcycle: Thruxton 1200
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by retjustdad53 View Post
Are at least some of the EU emission requirements counter productive?

Catalytic converters are being removed about as quick as manufacturers are putting them on.

I wonder what the percentage of offending gases were before catalytic converters and what they are after being mandated ?

Are bikes whose catalytic converters who have been removed still better or worse than those bikes who never had catalytic converters?

We all know the arguments against cats: heat, weight, performance, and sound.

My assumption is the catalytic converters are necessary to limit the offending gases but how do bikes compare to cars, trucks, buses and even lawnmowers? Are bikes a big piece are a miniscule piece?

Is removing catalytic converter on bike like breaking the speed limit by two miles per hour or is it more like 20 mph over?
I would argue that it is a crude and short sighted way of squeezing a few extra HP out of your bike. There are better options, they are more expensive, and less damaging to the environment.

Note that passing emissions testing does not mean that your bike is clean. Emissions testing just makes sure that your lambda cycle is working like it is supposed to, and carbon monoxide is not egregiously off. It does not test for the two main things the cat removes, which are hydrocarbons and nitrous oxide. I don't know of any jurisdiction where it is legal to remove the cat as long as it can pass emissions without it. Anyone that is testing can smell the difference in hydrocarbons (it just stinks), so there is a good chance of it not passing if it is not a friendly commercial mechanic that is doing the testing.

Well, yes, you are probably doing less damage than a lorry driver, no matter what you sabotage on your bike. But please consider that while there is at least economic necessity for pollution by a lorry driver (we all want to buy stuff at the supermarket), a lot of motorcycle use is purely recreational driving in circles which could just as well be done on a bicycle, if your stamina is up for it. So all of that is unnecessary pollution. Better keep it at a minimum.

And that is exactly why Triumph went into water cooling and completely overhauled the range: Emissions! Just look at what a cat alone costs. It is one of the most expensive parts on the bike. So here you have a brand new engine, with not just a cat, but also state of the art fuelling, cooling and engine control, and you rip out the essential piece why this engine was redesigned. Because you want three more horspowers and are too cheap to do proper tuning. (not specifically you, retjustdad53, but people who rip out the cat in general)
15Ace is offline  
post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 05:12 PM
SuperSport
Main Motorcycle: Street scrambler
Senior Member
 
Davey gravey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Sunshine coast Australia
Posts: 1,258
Extra Motorcycle: Sr400
That escalated quickly! I'm not too cheap, just don't have enough money for 1 object when I have so many objects. It's a bit different
Interesting how a fair point can come across as holier than thou.

Sent from my TA-1033 using Tapatalk
Davey gravey is offline  
post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 06:12 PM
SuperSport
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davey gravey View Post
That escalated quickly! I'm not too cheap, just don't have enough money for 1 object when I have so many objects. It's a bit different
Interesting how a fair point can come across as holier than thou.

Sent from my TA-1033 using Tapatalk
lol so true, like I said in the decat/pollution thread, climate change is the new religious fundamentalism....insufferable lecturing. I am a proud blasphemer.
lambroving and philmore like this.

Last edited by miglan20; 07-28-2019 at 06:14 PM.
miglan20 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options
All posts must adhere to Forum Rules

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter your valid email address, that can receive an automated confirmation message. Otherwise, you won't be able to gain full access.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome