T120 no engine braking - Page 4 - Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums
Water Cooled Twins Technical Talk Technical Talk for water cooled Triumph Twins.

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post #31 of 53 (permalink) Old 04-29-2019, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by aj7840 View Post
1. slipper clutch - T120 does not have one. ......... It's a manly feature - sounds like a comment from a non rider
First, do a little basic research. A T120 does indeed have a slipper clutch. Second, a non rider!!! I probably have 200,000 miles on road bikes and have far more hours on dirt bikes than road bikes. I was a fairly proficient off-road racer and have more race trophies that walls in my shop to place them.

I have ridden most every type of bike. The bikes I had the most racing success on were all 2 strokes that have very little engine braking. I have also owned and raced several 4 stroke singles that had appreciable engine braking.

Is engine braking a bad thing? No, not unless it causes you to stall your engine, then yes. Is engine braking a huge benefit? Not particularly. It is sort of like a lazy-man's rear brake. You just back off the throttle and you slow down. Is it as effective as a rear brake? No, not even close. (unless you are a novice rider who is too lazy or doesn't know how to properly use a rear brake.)
Granted, in road riding, some engine braking can be deemed beneficial when going though a series of S turns. But it isn't that big of deal not to have it.

When racing, if you are speeding up or slowing down, the goal is usually to do it as quick as you can. Engine braking will seldom, if ever, slow you down as quick as you could by using your rear brake.

Not that this pertains to street riding, but the most effective way of using the rear brake to ride fast on a dirt bike is to give the bike a little gas while modulating the rear brake. It prevents you from locking up the rear end and gives you instant acceleration when you let off the brake. Mike Lafferty, multi-time AMA enduro champion, used to change rear brake pads at checkpoints during enduros, because he gave the bike more than just a little gas when braking.

One of the most notable features of engine braking is the pronounced sound it causes the engine to make. The same crown that likes loud pipes think that is really cool. That's fine. My take on that is "whatever".
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post #32 of 53 (permalink) Old 04-29-2019, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by cougsfan View Post
First, do a little basic research. A T120 does indeed have a slipper clutch. Second, a non rider!!! I probably have 200,000 miles on road bikes and have far more hours on dirt bikes than road bikes. I was a fairly proficient off-road racer and have more race trophies that walls in my shop to place them.

I have ridden most every type of bike. The bikes I had the most racing success on were all 2 strokes that have very little engine braking. I have also owned and raced several 4 stroke singles that had appreciable engine braking.

Is engine braking a bad thing? No, not unless it causes you to stall your engine, then yes. Is engine braking a huge benefit? Not particularly. It is sort of like a lazy-man's rear brake. You just back off the throttle and you slow down. Is it as effective as a rear brake? No, not even close. (unless you are a novice rider who is too lazy or doesn't know how to properly use a rear brake.)
Granted, in road riding, some engine braking can be deemed beneficial when going though a series of S turns. But it isn't that big of deal not to have it.

When racing, if you are speeding up or slowing down, the goal is usually to do it as quick as you can. Engine braking will seldom, if ever, slow you down as quick as you could by using your rear brake.

Not that this pertains to street riding, but the most effective way of using the rear brake to ride fast on a dirt bike is to give the bike a little gas while modulating the rear brake. It prevents you from locking up the rear end and gives you instant acceleration when you let off the brake. Mike Lafferty, multi-time AMA enduro champion, used to change rear brake pads at checkpoints during enduros, because he gave the bike more than just a little gas when braking.

One of the most notable features of engine braking is the pronounced sound it causes the engine to make. The same crown that likes loud pipes think that is really cool. That's fine. My take on that is "whatever".
How would engine braking cause you to stall your engine?
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post #33 of 53 (permalink) Old 04-30-2019, 06:34 AM
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If only your take on the non rider comment was whatever.
Loud pipes and Kickstarters pull chics.

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post #34 of 53 (permalink) Old 04-30-2019, 08:02 AM
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The slow reduction in engine RPM after throttle closing is an engine emissions strategy. Lots of cars use this and unless you have a manual transmission you don't notice it much. I'd say that the Triumph dealer might be able to shed some light on the engine management strategy being used by Triumph for that bike.
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post #35 of 53 (permalink) Old 04-30-2019, 09:51 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cougsfan View Post
First, do a little basic research. A T120 does indeed have a slipper …….".
you made good some points, but the T120 has a clutch assist, not a true slipper clutch.

Ok! I am lazy, I don't always use the brakes to slow down if I just want reduce speed a small amount.
Based on previous motorcycles I expected more engine braking then what actually happened. I was questioning, was this normal. My last four bikes (BMW R1100RS, K1300GT, Ducati Monster, Yamaha R1) have been fuel injected and did not exhibit this.

The conclusion - it probably is normal, can I adapt my riding to it, yes.


As a side note - I have over 500,000 miles of riding, and have raced 2 strokes and 4 strokes, starting with rigid framed brakeless flat trackers in the 50's

It is what it is, until it isn't
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post #36 of 53 (permalink) Old 04-30-2019, 11:52 PM
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According to Triumph the clutch assist is their version of a slipper clutch but allows more engine braking than what's found on a current sport bike from the factory or from the aftermarket. Nothing wrong with using the throttle to slow a bit. It's not being lazy. You don't use the throttle to slow the bike quickly, the brakes are for that. I had a 2001 SV650S that had so much engine braking that if you let off the throttle, the bike would practically come to a stop. I got very used to it and on a curvy back road, barely needed to use brakes. Riding the Pace as Nick Ienatasch would say.
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post #37 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-01-2019, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by aj7840 View Post
you made good some points, but the T120 has a clutch assist, not a true slipper clutch.

Ok! I am lazy, I don't always use the brakes to slow down if I just want reduce speed a small amount.
Based on previous motorcycles I expected more engine braking then what actually happened. I was questioning, was this normal. My last four bikes (BMW R1100RS, K1300GT, Ducati Monster, Yamaha R1) have been fuel injected and did not exhibit this.

The conclusion - it probably is normal, can I adapt my riding to it, yes.


As a side note - I have over 500,000 miles of riding, and have raced 2 strokes and 4 strokes, starting with rigid framed brakeless flat trackers in the 50's
On those last 4 bikes.

Did they have cable operated throttles or by wire?

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post #38 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-01-2019, 08:25 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tricolour View Post
On those last 4 bikes.

Did they have cable operated throttles or by wire?
All are cable which does explain some of the lag.
Guess I need to borrow my son's S1000RR, it has ride by wire to see how his reacts. (Will probably need to see the niece afterwards to unfold me - She's a chiropractor ) He'll probably pit it in rain mode though

It is what it is, until it isn't
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post #39 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-02-2019, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by aj7840 View Post
All are cable which does explain some of the lag.
Guess I need to borrow my son's S1000RR, it has ride by wire to see how his reacts. (Will probably need to see the niece afterwards to unfold me - She's a chiropractor ) He'll probably pit it in rain mode though
I was thinking that with cable the throttle closes when YOU close it and this might not be the case with a ride by wire throttle.
Hence the better engine braking with cable?

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post #40 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-02-2019, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Tricolour View Post
I was thinking that with cable the throttle closes when YOU close it and this might not be the case with a ride by wire throttle.

Hence the better engine braking with cable?
My mates air cooled Scrambler is cable and he complains of lack of engine braking as well.

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