Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums banner

go tubeless or not?

24K views 110 replies 40 participants last post by  CafRacer 
#1 ·
I've got a new rear tyre waiting to go on my Thruxton but I'm thinking about doing a DIY tubeless conversion at the same time using 3m tape.
Only reason is I'm worried a puncture could cause a rapid deflation with the existing setup, anybody had this happen or am I worrying about nothing?
Has anybody sealed the rims themselves with tape?
Do the standard tubeless valves fit the rim or do you need to drill the hole out?
Just noticed I can see see steel wire in a few tiny spots in the centre of the tread so I need to decide in the next couple of days:grin2:
 
#3 ·
There are several posts scattered about different threads about doing this. The short answer yes many people have successfully done this. Valve stems that fit the existing hole and are secured with a nut are readily available. Due to the width of the rear tire it is much easier to correctly place the tape than on a narrower front but they can be done as well. I don't know about the Thruxton but on my T120 I can't carry enough tools to fix a tube flat even if I was able to break the bead.
This is one of the more comprehensive threads about tubeless conversion https://www.triumphrat.net/water-co...3321-t120-wire-wheel-tubeless-conversion.html

Chuck
 
#4 ·
Thanks for the link, I was just on my way out and being a bit lazy not searching:smile2:

After reading that thread decided it's a bit too much hassle this time around as I need the tyre doing right away, also if you have to pay somebody to remove the tire as I do it's another £25 each time if it doesn't go right on top of the cost of the valve and the tape.
 
#5 · (Edited)
After considerable research, I concluded 1) tubeless tires are inconvenient at best, since they cannot be plugged at the side of the road as can tubeless tires, 2) depending on roadside assistance may be overly optimistic, especially in areas where cell service is problematic or non-existent, 3) where you can expect help from roadside assistance, you're still going to need to be towed to a shop which can replace a punctured tube, 4) tubeless tires pose a notable risk in case of a puncture because they deflate much more rapidly than tubeless tires, which can lead to a loss of control, 5) conversion efforts using tape require particular care when changing tires, 6) the conversions may regularly lose some amount of pressure due to the challenge of making the wheel completely airtight (reports of many successful conversions notwithstanding), 7) many dealers will not undertake such conversions, and 8) there is a product, Ride-On, which purports to render even tubed tires puncture-proof, but it's difficult to find much in the way of objective testing to verify that claim; videos exists of the product working in tubeless tires, and 9) by far the best thing to do is to replace the stock wheels with purpose-built wheels intended for tubeless tires, admittedly at a price which includes new tubeless tires in addition to new wheels and the expense of having them mounted if you don't do it yourself.

As best I can tell, most people here just ride on unmodified factory wheels and hope for the best, perhaps understandably due to the considerable expense of changing out wheels and tires to more modern (and arguably safer) specification.
 
#6 · (Edited)
As best I can tell, most people here just ride on unmodified factory wheels and hope for the best...
Or they might just ride on unmodified wheels with tube type tires based on the millions of miles riders have put on tubed tires who never have experienced a flat.

Based on my 50+ years of riding I concluded that if one buys quality tires, maintains them properly, doesn't try to squeeze that last 500 miles or so out of the tires, and pays attention to where they ride the odds of a flat are mitigated.

JMO...
 
#9 ·
Started riding when ABS was just entering the market on the higher end bike....BMW etc. Returning to biking and buying my 2013 Thruxton many years later, I had assumed ABS would be standard. I was wrong!

Yes, I wish I had it, but continue to ride without it.

As far a tubed/tubeless goes, yes, I have experienced a tube blow. Cause was unclear, but it went near the valve stem. Very scary...almost total loss of control trying to keep it upright (it was the rear tire). Veered into the opposite lane, fortunately no oncoming traffic. So my recommendation is yes, go tubeless with the conversion as I did. I remain happy, but have not as yet experienced another puncture since installing (thank God) to contrast the two experiences.

Here is my link along with initial reaction to the new Pirelli Angel GT's

https://www.triumphrat.net/air-cooled-twins-talk/933049-going-tubeless-with-the-angels-part-1-a.html

What ever you decide, as someone suggested, many have happily ridden zillions of miles with tubes, but from what I've read the outcome of a slower deflation can be a life saver. And a temporary plug from a nail etc will reduce the inconvenience of being stranded, to get you home.

All best, ride safe, Thruxty
 
#11 ·
Yes, Ride On only claims 45-55% success on tubed tires. Much better on tubeless.

I saw a rear tubeless blowout once and it was scary. Fortunately the rider ran off the road and was able to recover without cracking.

I too would like to go tubeless but just having a piece of tape keep the air in with all those spokes seems a little scary. My apologies to you who have successfully done that.
 
#16 ·
The tape, at least in the Outex kit I used, is thicker than the rubber inner tube used in the tube tires. Seems to hold air in with all those spokes just fine. My concern will be that it not get damaged when changing tires. Shouldn't be a problem as long as whoever does that is aware of the tape and is careful.

In my 55+ years of riding motorcycles I have had a number of flats. Always in the back tire. The front tire tends to kick up the offending items and the back gets them. A flat in a tube tire can get pretty hairy. On one occasion it introduced a true tank slapper reaction at freeway speeds. Every flat I have had with tubeless tires I was able to air it up enough to get home, often without resorting to the plug repair kits I always carry.

I can only get tube type tires that are proper for my sidecar rig so I am SOL if I get a flat on it. Down to a cell phone and AAA card.

Chuck
 
#15 ·
In my experience when a tubed tyre has a puncture it happens quickly with little to no warning , instant loss of control . On the front if you are very lucky you may keep it upright just hope there's nothing in the way you are a passenger . On the rear it should be a little easier to stay right way up . If you haven't experienced it I can only say its like riding on ice with a bit less control . A tubeless puncture usually goes down slower giving warning of impending doom . Yes over many years I have experienced them all , and it has happened so often that I still run tubes in both my Thruxtons .0:)>:)
 
#20 · (Edited)
I went with the tubeless conversion using 3M tape, mainly because getting a flat on a modern Bonneville with OEM tires means that the bike has to go to a shop. The mufflers need to be removed in order to pull the rear wheel and breaking the bead means that you’re not doing that on the side of the road.

Tubeless tires can be plugged and reinflated and off you go. Could even be done with a plug kit and a small compressor roadside.

I live in Seattle, where there is a DIY shop called the Motoshed. I pulled both wheels in my garage, took them to the Shed, they took off the tires. I cleaned the inside of the wheels to a mirror finish, installed the 3M tape, hit it with a heat gun to melt it to the rim (the tape is very soft and flexible, so it does not need to get very hot), installed new valve stems. Motoshed then installed a set of Continental Road Attacks that I’d brought along.

I’ve ridden this setup for about 2,000 miles now. No problems, no worries. The shop work was pretty fun, too.


So from my single data point, I’d highly recommend making the upgrade. Consider some Road Attack tires while you’re at it!
 
#21 · (Edited)
Regarding the valve stems...

You can find 90 degree valve stems at your local bike shop or online. Just remembered the correct diameter is 8.33 mm NOT the popular 11 mm. The ones I bought look a lot like this.....

https://www.jpcycles.com/product/zz...MI99a6wKya5QIVOP7jBx3rdAeWEAQYAyABEgK0mfD_BwE....

Had to fashion the rubber washer by slicing an electric grommet in half with a razor blade. Has worked so far for me in providing an airtight seal. Worth the extra effort to install 90 degree stems. Much easier to inflate and check tires.
 
#22 ·
I'm looking for a shop down in SoCal that will provide that service. Otherwise it's down to doing it myself.

I just pick up a screw in my rear tire yesterday. Came out to the bike today to find the flat tire, ugh... At least it was at home.
 
#27 ·
I’d encourage you to go tubeless.

My dealer would not do the tubeless conversion for me due to liability concerns. Neither would my local independent shop.

There is a place in Colorado that would probably do it (Woodys Wheel Works). Rather than ship my wheels tho I simply did it with the help of the Motoshed.

I’d expect most any shop would be willing to pull the OEM tires for you, and then mount the tires (or new ones) onto your sealed wheels.

Sealing them is pretty straightforward. I’d give it a “three” on a scale of one to ten where “one” is replacing a turn signal bulb or putting in a new battery and “ten” is an engine overhaul.
 
#26 ·
I honestly don't know why more people don't convert to tubeless. It costs a whole $120 if you use an Outex kit and I dunno, $30 if you use 3M tape. Yes it involves some elbow grease and is a bit of a PITA. I've done the Outex twice, and on my Thruxton as of July 31 of this year, it loses less air in a month than it did when I ran tubes, like, a pound or two.

I saw a guy with a flat on a tubed tire on the so-called "Top of the World Highway" between Dawson City, Yukon and Chicken, Alaska digging a trench into the red mud with whatever blunt instrument he could muster like a desperate savage hunter gatherer...just so he could get his rear tire off. I don't ever want to be that guy. A more civilized man would use a T plug and some CO2 cannisters and be on his way.
 

Attachments

#34 ·
Do it

Bought the Japanese Outex kit on Ebay for my '17 Thruxton. It takes a while to do, but not brain surgery. I opted for a 90 degree valve stem up front to make it easier to get around the brake rotors.
Many thousands of miles, and no grief.
The idea of touring on a bike with tubes and no centerstand is not appealing to me. Now I carry a plug kit and CO2 cartridges.
 
#39 · (Edited)
Ordered everything today to do the tubeless conversion on both wheels using 3M tape.
I'm going to use some low modulus silicone just on the end of the nipples to seal against water getting in under the tape, I assume that shouldn't be a problem, the tape won't be sticking to the nipples anyway.
Noticed some people seem to be be roughing up the surface of the rim before applying the tape, is this best practice or optional, does it help the tape to stick or could the the imperfections provide a route for the air to escape?
Going to put gorilla masking tape over the top of the 3 m to protect it and maybe help stop the edges peeling off, is this ok?
Ordered right angled valves, not entirely necessary for the rear but definitely for the front.
Do you tighten the valve fixing nut directly against the inside of the rim because the sealing is done by the o-ring on the outside or do you tighten the nut against the tape, is that secure enough?
Hoping to get it perfect first time especially when you have to pay to get the tyre removed each time.
 
#40 ·
Ordered everything today to do the tubeless conversion on both wheels using 3M tape.
I'm going to use some low modulus silicone just on the end of the nipples to seal against water getting in under the tape,
Going to put gorilla masking tape over the top of the 3 m to protect it and maybe help stop the edges peeling off, is this ok?
.
I'v read on other forums that the gorilla tape will come loose and ball up inside the tire, probably because of it's weight and centrifugal force. You can use your rim strip to protect the tape for installation. Do not leave the rubber inside the wheel, tie a string around it so you can pull it out after you have the tire on.
When I sealed my Thruxton wheels with E6000 I used Loctite 290 from the outside to seal the spoke threads and nipples for water. On the narrow front wheel I had to flatten (slightly) the curved sides around the valve stem with a file to get a good seal. Tubeless is the way to go.
 
#41 ·
CafRacer,

Here's what I did.....
https://www.triumphrat.net/air-cooled-twins-talk/933049-going-tubeless-with-the-angels-part-1-a.html

Bear in mind this was for a 2103 Thruxton with stock spoke rims.

Don't bother with the Gorilla tape, just use the existing tube protectors on the inside over the 3M tape. Also, as mentioned, if the valve stem holes are similar to mine, the new stems may not seal due to the curvature of the rim, particularly in the case of the narrower front rim. After searching for a suitable rubber washer for the outside, I sliced a rubber grommet in half. If done carefully you can leave a bit of the lip to fit into the rim. I completed all the 3M tapping first, then cut the stem hole in the 3M tape as close to the edge of the hole with a modelling knife. The rubber grommet went on the outside of the stem against the rim. So in effect there are two rubber washers, one either side of the rim.

Other tip is to set up the rim so it easily rotates on a stand of some kind. I propped up the wheel axle to allow the wheel to rotate on a couple of wooden boxes. Then enlist someone's help to rotate the wheel in a slow controlled manner as you apply the tape. Clings like the devil so make sure the first contact counts! Four hands are a lot better than two for this application process.

Good luck. Thruxty
 
#44 ·
Has anybody got a link to some good quality 90 degree valves I can buy in the UK?
Ordered these off eBay as they looked better quality in the picture with the step seal
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/170957976098
But they've just arrived and then look nothing like that, they're the same cheap ones you can buy anywhere with just an o-ring and a really wobbly nut:frown2:
Going to have to reorder now wait again
 
#47 ·
"I didn't think you have to seal the inside of the valve fitting as it has a seal on the outside, I'd have thought if you tried to tighten it up with some sort of seal under the nut as well it wouldn't be very secure."

I found that two is better than one, so in my case I used the rubber washer that comes with the 90 degree stem on the inside, and added the second to the outside so the wheel rim is clamped between the two washers on the stem. Gently clamping down on the nut was not an issue. Two and half years and counting, still good.

The problem is the curvature of the rim preventing a consistent contact. Others have solved this issue by grinding down the rim in the contact area so it is flat (i.e.remove curvature) to provide a better seal with the rubber washer. I elected not to modify the rim.

As for the 90 degree valve stems, I had similar difficulty locating a quality 8.3 mm stem here in the US. Settled with what I could find. Seems to be made of aluminium, and was tarnished from new, but is holding up. No other choice at the time.

Repeating the call for a quality 90 degree 8.33 mm valve stem, if anyone knows of a better source here in the USA too, please post. Will purchase in readiness for next tire swap.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jet City
#48 ·
The 90 degree valve stems that I bought are aluminum and relatively good quality. Certainly better than the least expensive ones.

The brand is MOTO-D, angled valve stems 8.3mm and their site is www.motodracing.com. They have colors but I just went with black.

The O-ring that came with them was unimpressive, but seems to work fine. I mounted the O-rings on the outside. On the back wheel I used the tape as a seal around the stem (sandwiched under the nut), and on the front I trimmed the tape away from the end of the valve stem and relied on the O-ring to do the job.

The front is a firmer seal and the next chance I get I’ll make the back wheel the same, trimming the internal sealing tape away from the valve stem. Both tires are fine for pressure tho after 1,500 miles or so.
 
#49 ·
Thanks Jet City, will go with the silver to match my chrome rims next time I need to change my tires. About 10 times the price I had previously paid, but still worth it for the quality on something as critical as a valve stem.

Thruxty
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jet City
#51 ·
Mine's come to a bit of a halt thanks to eBay, valves that arrived are cheap crap and look nothing like the picture on the listing, waiting for some different ones now, good quality aftermarket 90-degree valves seem really hard to find in the UK.
Ordered the 3M tape last Thursday but hadn't arrived and today the seller decided to tell me it was out of stock after all?
Another 4 days wasted, managed to get some on Amazon for delivery tomorrow but it's only the 1 mil stuff but it'll have to do.
Hopefully I can get on with the taping tomorrow, I know some people are for and against going over it with gorilla tape but I think I'm going to do it, I don't know whether anyone's actually had it unravel and Ball up inside the tire or it's just another one of those internet myths, or maybe they just didn't clean or stick it down properly.
If I had my own facilities to change the tires I'd just use gorilla tape on its own, everytime I see wheels done with this 3M tape there always seems to be loads of wrinkles and bubbles in it, I reckon a good couple of layers of gorilla tape would do the job just as well.
Just my luck we've had the the most number of dry sunny days for ages since the bikes been off the road.?
 
#53 · (Edited)
Finally got the job finish today and the tyres refitted, they did the old fashioned water bath test and no leaks so far so fingers crossed it's worked first time.
Many thanks to people on here for the advice and suggestions, there obviously isn't one single right way of doing this job as there are many slight variations. I've chosen what I considered the best ideas but I'm not saying this is the the best method by any means but it's work for me.
Cleaned the inside of the rim with acetone, which was actually watered down because it was £1 a bottle nail varnish remover ��, and then with thinners.
Cleaned up the surface where the tape would be applied with a scotch pad wheel on a battery drill, also tidied up the weld on one of the wheels were the tyre would seat against the rim.
There was evidence of water ingress from the spokes on the rim tape, quite a few rust spots, so I decided I wanted to do something to try and seal the spokes and nipples mainly to stop water getting in from the outside underneath the tape. I decided to use what I had to hand already which was some loctite 542 thread sealant, applied it from the inside of the wheel around the nipple and the spoke threads, it's anaerobic so what was left on the surface I had to wipe away but hopefully what's run into the threads has gone off in the absence of air, either way if it's worked or not it won't affect the ability to hold air it was just extra insurance against water leaking in.
Used 3M 4411n 50mm wide tape, originally ordered the 2 mm version but was let down so ended up with this but I think it's plenty thick enough. Even though I had the wheels mounted on the spindle it was still quite tricky to apply the tape and keep it straight, I was so busy concentrating on minimising the creases and bubbles that I didn't notice it wondering off slightly and had to do the rear wheel rim in two pieces. it was even more tricky with the front wheel rim having the really deep valley, maybe 38 mm wide tape would be better on the front but that wouldn't leave you much tape either side of the the spokes.
Used gorilla masking tape over the top of the 3M to protect it during tyre fitting and maybe give an extra insurance layer, trimmed the edges so they were clear of anywhere the tire was seating.
After sending back my original valves because of the poor quality I ordered these bike-it 90-degree valves and they were much better, a good wide stepped seal which seats the valve centrally in the hole and the nut was a much better fit on the stem then I ones I originally had.
Decided to file a flat surface on the wheels to give the valve the best chance of sealing, finished it with a couple of coats of clear lacquer just to protect the bare aluminium, I know a lot of people would be worried about filing their wheels but you can't see it once the valves are fitted.
I didn't see the point of overlapping the tape at the valve and I'm glad I didn't because with the thickness of the alloy wheel rim on the Thruxton it doesn't leave much of the valve stem to fit a nut, also put a tiny bit of mastic underneath the nut and some PTFE tape around the thread as an extra extra insurance policy. ��
Overall not a particularly difficult job, applying the 3M tape and keeping it straight was a hardest bit, would have been better if I have planned it and ordered all the materials in advance instead of doing it it when I got the puncture, the 3M tape is not that common in the UK.
Even thinking about keeping up small repair kit under the seat with CO2 canisters if anyone has any good suggestions that would fit in the Thruxton seat hump.
 

Attachments

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top