Proper way to diagnose a gear shift problem - 800 XC - Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums
Tiger 800 - 800XC Mods & Workshop Workshop and technical talk for the 800 - 800XC Tourer - Adventurer Tigers

 1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-13-2019, 06:04 PM Thread Starter
Minitwins
Main Motorcycle: 2013 Tiger 800 XC
New Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12
Other Motorcycle: 1995 Honda Magna
Proper way to diagnose a gear shift problem - 800 XC

Yay two posts in 24 hours... oy vey.

Context: I have a 2013 800 XC. Bought with 14,800 miles in August 2018 from the original owner who bought it new in 2013, now has 22k+.

So, for the past three days (unrelated/before I changed my chain) it's had problems shifting. Sometimes it struggles to get into first or neutral, other times it won't shift at all. The gear shift lever feels extremely loose. I definitely do not feel comfortable riding it. My local Triumph dealer (Munroe!) says that because it's out of warranty and the VIN is not covered by the related recall, they won't work on it for free. I found one post here, and several elsewhere - it appears to be a broken gear selector pin or spring.

https://www.triumphrat.net/tiger-800...problem-2.html
https://advrider.com/f/threads/tiger...#post-31185978
https://www.tiger800.co.uk/index.php/topic,9167.10.html

Several questions:

1) Is the best way to diagnose it to remove the clutch, pull the gear shift mechanism, and inspect it?

1.5) Never pulled a clutch before. What should I know about doing it that isn't readily apparent?

2) Are there any other ways I can accurately diagnose the problem?

3) What should I look for if it's not the gear shift mechanism?

4) In only one of these several posts did I see a comment about a chain being too tight, and it's not clear which chain is being referred to. Could the OP be talking about a final drive chain? Does it have that kind of impact on the gear shift mechanism?

5) If you've done this replacement, what do you do for a replacement part? I've seen some DIY instructions but I don't have the tools for that. BikeBandit indicates 1-2 week delay to replace the entire mechanism which is going to drive (ha!) me batty.
b1g1nj4p4n is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-13-2019, 06:37 PM
Powerbike
Main Motorcycle: Daytona 675R
Senior Member
 
CafRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Preston, UK
Posts: 326
Other Motorcycle: Thruxton R
I've just done that exact fix recently on my Daytona 675, broken pin on the gear change shaft for the main return spring, I think it's a weak point across all the triumph models.
When this fails though your gear lever will feel really loose and flap about, it'll be really obvious.
I've also had the shift plate fail on my Daytona, this is the part on the end of the gear change shaft with the teeth at either end that turns the detent wheel and select the gears, this part just wears down and in my case I couldn't change down gears at all but it would change up ok, the gear lever action will feel normal though, you're just feel it's slipping just at the end of the the gear shift stroke when it should change gear.
But to answer your question you do really need to to remove the clutch to diagnose a fault which you have to anyway to make the repair.
It's not too difficult if you take it step by step, be careful to keep all the parts in the correct order, especially the clutch plates, and some spring washers need to be in the correct orientation.
You can undo the centre not without a clutch holding tool by jamming the rear wheel while the bike is in gear but if you've got spoked wheels I wouldn't recommend it. Better to buy a tool or an impact gun if you have one, or if you have a particularly lardy mate get them to sit on the bike with the brakes on and in gear.
The shift plate can be replaced on its own and is only twenty odd pounds I think, if the pin is snapped unfortunately you have to replace the gear change shaft, unless you know a good TIG welder who could weld it back on.
You need a clutch cover gasket at least, triumph recommend also replacing the clutch centre nut and Belleville washer, I did this first time but didn't bother second time so it's up to you. You shouldn't need to drain the oil as the clutch is above the oil level in the sump.
I suppose one good thing is that most of the faults seem to be in the gear change mechanism and not the actual gearbox itself which would be a lot more expensive in difficult to fix.
As far as parts go I don't think there's any alternative other than genuine triumph, I can't see your location but if it's UK then I used fowlers triumph online, I think it was 2 day delivery on the gear change shaft.

Last edited by CafRacer; 09-13-2019 at 06:47 PM.
CafRacer is online now  
post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-13-2019, 07:13 PM Thread Starter
Minitwins
Main Motorcycle: 2013 Tiger 800 XC
New Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12
Other Motorcycle: 1995 Honda Magna
Thanks, very helpful! (I'm in SF, FWIW. Called Munroe (SF's Triumph dealer) and they've got the part in stock.)

What should I look for to tell if the shift plate has failed?

And to summarize:

-Get a clutch holding tool, impact gun, or Fat Dude.
-Keep **** organized.
-Replace clutch cover gasket, clutch center nut, and Belleville washer.

Center nut is... 31 mm? 30 mm? I've seen folks post both.
b1g1nj4p4n is offline  
 
post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-13-2019, 08:04 PM
Powerbike
Main Motorcycle: Daytona 675R
Senior Member
 
CafRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Preston, UK
Posts: 326
Other Motorcycle: Thruxton R
The clutch nut on the Daytona was 30 mm, I would imagine it's the same.
If it's the shift plate the gear lever will still have that strong spring return to centre action but as you move the gear lever either up or down you'll feel like there are two parts slipping against each other which is exactly what's happening.
If a pins broke the gear lever will just be hanging down there will be no spring action at all.
Forgot to add you'll also need torque wrench or more likely two, a larger one for the clutch centre nut and a smaller one for the the centre plate bolts.
If you're starting from scratch with no tools then it may be cheaper to get a local independent to do the job, any decent garage should be able to remove the clutch without issue, my less than favorable views on triumph dealers are well documented on this forum.
This is a worn shift plate I changed as a precaution, it was actually still working, the one that failed previously looked the same just more worn.
Underneath is the gear change shaft with the broken pin, mine failed at 22000 miles.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMGP0970.JPG
Views:	12
Size:	381.2 KB
ID:	655494   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMGP0968.JPG
Views:	11
Size:	411.6 KB
ID:	655496  

Last edited by CafRacer; 09-13-2019 at 08:11 PM.
CafRacer is online now  
post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-13-2019, 09:10 PM Thread Starter
Minitwins
Main Motorcycle: 2013 Tiger 800 XC
New Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12
Other Motorcycle: 1995 Honda Magna
Thanks again! There's definitely no return to the exterior lever, so probably not the shift plate.

I have a torque wrench and all the tools except the clutch tool, I think I can get away with this on my own.

Is the clutch tool needed for disassembly? Or only reassembly?
b1g1nj4p4n is offline  
post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-14-2019, 03:21 AM
Powerbike
Main Motorcycle: Daytona 675R
Senior Member
 
CafRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Preston, UK
Posts: 326
Other Motorcycle: Thruxton R
Quote:
Originally Posted by b1g1nj4p4n View Post
Thanks again! There's definitely no return to the exterior lever, so probably not the shift plate.

I have a torque wrench and all the tools except the clutch tool, I think I can get away with this on my own.

Is the clutch tool needed for disassembly? Or only reassembly?
Much more satisfying to do the job yourself if you're able, and with the money you save you can treat the bike to some more goodies
It definitely sounds like a snapped pin on the gear change shaft but I'd hold off ordering the parts until you take a look, it could be a snapped return spring which would be a lot cheaper, timewise it makes no difference ordering the parts before or after. Also once you take a look you may find other parts you want a change as a precaution while you have it apart, such as the shift plate and there's a little tiny spring on the detent wheel I wish I changed when I did mine, not because it has snapped but because it just looks so small and flimsy.
Also it's a good opportunity to measure the clutch plates, mine were thankfully only 20% worn after 22000 miles as a new clutch pack for a 675R isn't cheap.
In theory you should use a clutch tool for disassembly and reassembly but like I said I've managed mine twice without any, it's definitely easier with a second person and a long breaker bar, with spoked wheels you don't have the option of throwing a bar through the swingarm to lock the wheel, unless you want a bent spoke.
I was going to order this type of tool for the future as some of those universal tong type tools look a bit flimsy, and you'd have to be certain the one you buy fits your clutch, I don't know if anyone in the US is doing something similar to this?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Triumph-C...YAAOxy3JtRfLCd
The centre nut is detented onto the shaft to lock it in place, so make sure you you free it with a small punch before you attempt to loosen. I think that's the only reason they tell you to use a new nut, if you can get a copy of the service manual it would be helpful to go along with any videos.

Last edited by CafRacer; 09-14-2019 at 03:28 AM. Reason: Google speech to text and a Lancashire accent
CafRacer is online now  
post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-14-2019, 05:29 PM Thread Starter
Minitwins
Main Motorcycle: 2013 Tiger 800 XC
New Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12
Other Motorcycle: 1995 Honda Magna
Weirdly, the shop said not to bother changing the clutch nut. And while they had both the rod and the spring in stock, they've got to order the clutch gasket. Bought both, they said I can return the rod if it's not what's broken. None of the area shops have the gasket in stock. Maybe in the aftermath of end-of-season work? Who knows...

I bought one of those clutch basket tools you linked to from Amazon, should be here tomorrow. Will probably start the work tomorrow so I can see if there's any other part replacement needed while I'm in there and waiting for the gasket to arrive.
b1g1nj4p4n is offline  
post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-14-2019, 11:09 PM
Powerbike
Main Motorcycle: Daytona 675R
Senior Member
 
CafRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Preston, UK
Posts: 326
Other Motorcycle: Thruxton R
You sound like you have a good dealer there, normally they won't accept returns.
The nut will be okay, it's just if it ends up in the same position on the shaft when you torque it up you'll have to tighten it up a bit (or slacken a tiny bit) so you have a fresh bit to knock into the shaft.
It's weird how they have internal gearchange parts in stock but not the gasket, you might be lucky and it comes off intact. Don't forget the cover is dowelled so you'll need to knock it from the back and not sideways, on mine there is a small protrusion you can get a piece of wood behind. Not sure if this is covered in the video but don't forget to use something to keep the backlash gear aligned on the clutch basket before you take it out, just a parallel punch or a bolt will do, must be a good fit though. I forget second time and had a hell of a job getting them back in alignment.
Oh and make sure you cover the opening at the bottom of the case before you touch the gearchange mechanism, you don't want to drop anything in there, and if anything is broken you obviously need to check you have all the bits and nothing's in the sump.
Apologies if some of this is obvious to you, just trying to cover all the bases.
Also I'm speaking from my experience with the Daytona, I'm assuming the tiger will be very similar but best to follow the service manual in case I'm giving you a bum steer.
CafRacer is online now  
post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-16-2019, 12:09 AM Thread Starter
Minitwins
Main Motorcycle: 2013 Tiger 800 XC
New Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12
Other Motorcycle: 1995 Honda Magna
Got the cover and everything else off smoothly until I got to the clutch nut, and then the stupid EBC basket from Amazon is one size too big and it's not clear what the correct size is. Fortunately Amazon is giving me a refund, but what a PITA.

If an impact wrench isn't an option, are either of these tools worth getting?
https://www.amazon.com/Tusk-L35-471-...EKMD24WWGTF3ZT
https://www.amazon.com/Motion-Pro-08...omotive&sr=1-4
b1g1nj4p4n is offline  
post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 09-16-2019, 03:56 AM
Powerbike
Main Motorcycle: Daytona 675R
Senior Member
 
CafRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Preston, UK
Posts: 326
Other Motorcycle: Thruxton R
Quote:
Originally Posted by b1g1nj4p4n View Post
Got the cover and everything else off smoothly until I got to the clutch nut, and then the stupid EBC basket from Amazon is one size too big and it's not clear what the correct size is. Fortunately Amazon is giving me a refund, but what a PITA.

If an impact wrench isn't an option, are either of these tools worth getting?
https://www.amazon.com/Tusk-L35-471-...EKMD24WWGTF3ZT
https://www.amazon.com/Motion-Pro-08...omotive&sr=1-4
Yeah it's a massive PITA when you're part way through a job that's going well so far and you find your missing a part or the correct tool.
I couldn't say 100% if that clutch holding tool would work, but they are for square tooth baskets so there's a good chance.

Impact gun is an option, I've just purchased a cheap mains powered gun to use on clutch nuts and front sprockets and so on.
Another option like I said is somebody to sit on the bike and hold the brakes on in gear.
Once you get the nut off your past the biggest hurdle though
CafRacer is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options
All posts must adhere to Forum Rules

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter your valid email address, that can receive an automated confirmation message. Otherwise, you won't be able to gain full access.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome