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post #51 of 71 (permalink) Old 12-15-2011, 12:39 PM
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- what he said!
Thanks robsalvv for a very reasoned and informative point of view!

"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are." - Franklin Delano Roosevelt
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post #52 of 71 (permalink) Old 12-20-2011, 08:19 PM
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robsalvv,

Very well said - I like how you've thought it through and agree with you that it really is always about rider skill, practice and control.

The whole idea of 'mandating' ABS (or anything else) really grates on me. Let those who ride decide.

Draeger

What if there were no hypothetical questions?
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post #53 of 71 (permalink) Old 12-21-2011, 04:14 AM
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Thanks Gents, however my articulation lacked quite a bit on a second reading. Oh well.

Have you guys caught up on the lawsuit against Harley Davidson? The injured pillion is suing HD because her and her hubby rider believed the bike had ABS due to the ABS status icon on the tacho and them believing that the salesman said it had ABS... the icon however, never lit up on start up and the user manual describes clearly that if the bike was fitted with ABS, the status light would light up on start up. Seems as though they never read the manual.

As I understand it, the rider had to suddenly brake due to traffic build up, stomped on the rear brake and without ABS, got into a skid and the bike crashed into a slide which lead to serious injuries. They're blaming a lack of ABS for the crash. For a rider to even follow this kind of thinking, means that their assumptions would have to have been that if you have ABS you can brake any old way and the ABS will take care of it and there wouldn't have been a crash. WRONG!! ABS will stop the wheel from skidding, that is all and a panic stomp on the rear will end up with a longer braking distance than a controlled brake. Whose to say that even if they had ABS they would have avoided a crash? Longer braking distance and all means they very likely might have crashed while upright. Who would be to blame then?

Apparently they had the bike for 15 months without twigging that it didn't have ABS. Hello?? McFly?!

The rider went for the rear - why didn't the rider brake with the front brake? Lack of skill seems to be the only answer to my mind. The rider's lack of skill and lack of riding awareness was the root cause for the crash, not a lack of ABS.


I suppose this rider represents the perfect double blind single data point - riding around like he had ABS when he actually didn't, and it caught him out. Is he the clear example of risk compensation? It sounds like he didn't even take his bike somewhere to practice what this new kind of braking felt like. To me that's negligent. (He would have found out quick smart whether he had ABS or not if he had!) Hypothetically speaking, I wonder whether he put off a skills course thinking he didn't need it because he had ABS?? God knows...


Anyway, mandatory ABS is coming to European compliant bikes from 2016. Right now the argument is whether it's from 50cc up or 125cc up. The manufacturers wanted to go with combined braking systems for small bikes because of the cost disadvantage of ABS on budget bikes... the EU parliament said nope, ABS all the way. The bottom end of the market is underpinning the entire European manufacturing market. If they have to add ABS, cost savings will have to come from somewhere or the price sensitive market will falter... where are those savings going to come from? What's the bet bikes will be fitted with the cheapest and least sophisticated ABS to keep the costs down... or there'll be a drop in quality - or a bit of A and a bit of B. I predict history will eventually show up the folly of this decision.

Last edited by robsalvv; 12-21-2011 at 04:16 AM.
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post #54 of 71 (permalink) Old 12-21-2011, 09:21 AM
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robsalvv,

The whole idea of 'mandating' ABS (or anything else) really grates on me. Let those who ride decide.

Draeger
Agreed, but as the demand increases, at some point it becomes cheaper for the manufacturer to fit all bikes, or all bike of a certain model, with ABS.
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post #55 of 71 (permalink) Old 12-21-2011, 10:11 AM
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The necessity of abs depends on the type of rider. My wife (who dosnt ride) is the kind of person that freezes or locks up in situations. I am not. abs would help her (and has) but would not help me. in my Pickup, I can stop fairley quickly, but it seems that without the abs, I could stop sooner, modulating the brakes just below the point of skidding the wheels. also, on my older pickup, the abs went crazy, locking the brakes randomly.
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post #56 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-01-2012, 05:22 PM
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Went riding with the local RAT group today and had a close encounter with several deer. One jumped out right in front of me and I hit the brakes hard. A second one jumped in front of me but by then I was riding very slowly. Personally, I'm glad I had ABS. I don't consider myself a highly skilled rider (been riding about 6 years) so who knows what would have happened without the ABS. It may not be for everyone one, but it is for me. That's the closest I've ever come to having venison on New Year's Day.
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post #57 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-01-2012, 10:15 PM
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Scary! Glad you're OK - I worry about the critters when I ride up here in the mountains (I'm off MM 226 of the BRP). How did your bike react? Smooth stopping or was there "chatter"? Was anyone behind your? Again, it's a constant concern of mine up here.

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post #58 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-02-2012, 09:58 AM
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Scary! Glad you're OK - I worry about the critters when I ride up here in the mountains (I'm off MM 226 of the BRP). How did your bike react? Smooth stopping or was there "chatter"? Was anyone behind your? Again, it's a constant concern of mine up here.
I didn't completely slam on the brakes because there were bikes behind me and I felt that the deer was crossing far enough ahead of me that I didn't need to come to a complete stop. I probably went from 45 mph to 10 very quickly and very smoothly. I really could't feel the ABS like I could on my old Road King so I can't be sure it activated. But the bike did handle great. The deer crossed about 10 feet in front of me but I was down to 10 mph by then.
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post #59 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-02-2012, 05:15 PM
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Hey sgl... I'm glad you're alright. Were the roads wet or dry when it happened?

What if there were no hypothetical questions?
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post #60 of 71 (permalink) Old 01-02-2012, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robsalvv View Post
Anyway, mandatory ABS is coming to European compliant bikes from 2016. Right now the argument is whether it's from 50cc up or 125cc up. The manufacturers wanted to go with combined braking systems for small bikes because of the cost disadvantage of ABS on budget bikes... the EU parliament said nope, ABS all the way. The bottom end of the market is underpinning the entire European manufacturing market. If they have to add ABS, cost savings will have to come from somewhere or the price sensitive market will falter... where are those savings going to come from? What's the bet bikes will be fitted with the cheapest and least sophisticated ABS to keep the costs down... or there'll be a drop in quality - or a bit of A and a bit of B. I predict history will eventually show up the folly of this decision.
HA! They said that about the cost of adding the Turbo Encabulator and now they are everywhere....
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