adaption...i think i changed my mind - Triumph Forum: Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-10-2011, 08:10 PM Thread Starter
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adaption...i think i changed my mind

On the 12 minute tune that is. I really need to understand this better because i really have yet to hear anyone give a detailed summary of just what adaption via riding the bike does or doesn't do compared to the 12 minute tune. All i have ever heard was that the 12MT is just a way of forcing the bike to adapt right then instead of having to put on some miles. And till today i figured that was probably the case because i have done the 12MT several times and never noticed any benefit.

Then today i did the 12MT again because my bike has been having a bit of a hard time idling after i start it since i re-loaded the stock 1700/tors tune in place of a custom tune i was running. It got better i thought over a few days and i figured adaption via riding had slowly worked the issue out. But then today i had hard time even starting it let alone getting it to idle. So i do the 12 MT and went for a ride. I'll be damned if the bike didn't run stronger with quicker throttle response by a good margin and a smoothness that was just sweet as he||. Th bike has run like that in the past but somehow it got away from me. I believe it happened like this....i did the 12MT a few times but only after a dealer loading of the map. I don't think i did one after having loaded a map myself, or actually maybe once. But the point is i think i may never have done it when it was needed. my thought is that having loaded the 1700 tors map over the custom tune, the bike never adapted to the new tune fully because there are things that riding adaption does not do that the 12MT does. Thats what i'm *thinking*, but again, it's the question i have never had answered....does the 12MT adjust things that adaption via riding does not?

I rode the bike several hundred miles since i reloaded the non custom tune. If the 12MT doesn't do anything more than adaption via riding eventually does, then why did the 12MY make the bike run so much smoother and stronger?
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-11-2011, 07:42 AM
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From what I was just reading in my SM,and if i understand it correctly,if a new sensor is installed or ya have a change in climate or even gasolene,by performing the adaption procedure,it resets or brings the ECU back to it's learning stages or default so that it can relearn from the input sensors,hence sending new information [voltages] to the output sensors which in turn will adjust fuel delivery and timing accordingly so the motor will start and run correctly under existing conditions.

In the auromobile,if ya replace a sensor,you disconnect the battery negative cable for a few minutes which then brings the ECM back to default.Then drive the vehicle for 10 miles or so in order for the ECM to adjust or relearn from the input sensors so it can send new correct information to the output sensors,hence,the motor will again perform within acceptable limits.The motorcycles with computers work on the same principle.Or you can use the appropriate tool to reset everything on the spot.Our problem is,we don't have the appropriate tool because it's too god **** expensive.lol The dealerships have em,but whether or not they use em remains to be seen.lol

Now gasolene was also mentined in the SM as a possible cause of poor engine performance and or hard starting.And I mentioned this before about how some vehicles are fuel sensitive and our bikes appear to be one of those vehicles.And the SM further stated that by upgrading to a higher octane or even a different brand can make a difference in how the motor runs.


Now I don't know what you guys are doing,but what I have learned is to perform the adaption procedure atleast twice a year,once in the spring,and once in the fall and noticed a difference in the way she starts and runs.And the reason is the change in climate due to the four seasons,spring,summer,fall, and winter.I probably should do it four times a year,at the beginning of each season to compensate for the different climate changes.

Since this is my first computer controled motorcycle, I'm still learning too.But,like anything else,after you've owned it for a couple years,you learn what makes it tick.So I don't know if I've answered your question or confused you even more.lol Dave!!!
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-12-2011, 02:50 PM
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Here's the response I posted in the ECM & FI Tuning forum:

Adaption only takes place at normal oprating temperatures in closed-loop mode. I don't know about your TBird but my '06 Sprint only operates in closed-loop mode at smaller throttle openings. Depending on your riding style it could take some time to achieve fully-adapted status during normal riding. Resetting adaptions to factory values then leaving your bike to run in closed-loop mode to establish new values is a way to force adaption. As far as I know the end result the same. In fact, even after forced adaption, the ECU will continue to monitor closed-loop operation to adjust short-term and long-term fuel trims.

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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-21-2011, 12:02 PM
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Dave you say "Adaptive Procedure" and Daz you say 12 minute tune. Are you guys talking about the same thing? Or is one disconnecting the battery and the other letting it run for 12 minutes after the fan kicks on - Daz where did you get your info that the 12 minutes starts after the fan kicks on? Does that trip an internal timer on the ECU because it's an electronic signal to run the fan, or is that just a signal to us that we are at full operating temperature?

I have had my battery cables disconnected - but right now I can't remember if it was before or after the dealer loaded my TOR tune. Reason being is that I had the seat off and noticed green corrosion building on the positive battery lead connection. Probably because it sat most of a year on the showroom before I bought it. I removed the cables and cleaned everything up and put them back on and didn't think anything of it - except I think the clock lost it's time and I might have had to reset it. Is there any benefit to removing battery cables for a few minutes before doing the 12 minute tune?

Lastly - we are in a weather cycle right now where it is 50 degrees in the morning and 96 degrees in the afternoon. Is there a downside to doing the 12 minute tune at say 9 in the morning when it is 60 degrees and then riding when it is 80-90 degrees? Should the 12 minute tune be done with an air temp the closest to what you will be doing most of your riding in? Seems if the bike is this sensitive we maybe should have bought carburated bikes!!!

---Daryl

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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-21-2011, 12:40 PM Thread Starter
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there are 3 actual ways....the 12MT i mentioned, adaption by simply riding the bike, which takes some miles, and by doing it with tuneecu. I suppose dealers have that option with the triumph app too. I think champ87 may be talking about the latter. Not sure whether any of them do anything different than the other, but i do know riding the bike never seemed to make it adapt like the 12MT tune did.

The 12 minutes is the correct time. It's in the manual, it's mentioned a million times in these forums. I didn't just come up with that myself. Not sure why the fan must kick in or how the ECU looks at any of this, but thats the way it's done.....do not touch the throttle, count 12 minutes from when the fan kicks in, then turn bike off for a minute to let ECU do it's thing as it does after the key is turned off. Disconnecting the battery....i dunno. I can't tell you if that erases the adaption, but i would think not. It erases things like fuel amount but adaption i would think not. I would however do the 12MT after disconnecting it if anything changed in the way it runs, assuming i knew adaption was optimal before i disconnected it.

As to air temp, i wouldn't do it in warm weather unless you put a fan in front of the bike pointing at the radiator. It can get VERY hot in the approximately 25 minutes this takes, and i have had smoke come out of the front of the engine near the end ! So I'd do it on a cooler day if possible or in the morning. As to doing it when the temp is closest to what you ride in, no. The bike has a air temp sensor and it will change that all the time anyways. I think adaption encompasses some things that do not change all the time when riding like that. The fact i rode several hundred miles after loading the map then did the 12MT with a major change tells me there are things that are more permanent than others and that adaption thru riding does not change, or at least not easily but the 12MT does. I have to technical understanding to back that up, but my experience with this tells me I must be right to some degree....it just makes sense.
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-21-2011, 01:29 PM
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Thanks that was the info I was looking for. When you say manual are you talking about a service manual that you have to contact Triumph to receive? I have checked my owners manual and there is no 12 minute tune in there. I bet you did have smoke coming off your engine. When the service manager gave me my bike delivery speech he told me 60 seconds after starting the bike it is ready to ride - he said "it's not good to leave them idling on the stand for very long". Makes me wonder about oil flow and delivery when it is tilted for a prolonged period of time. However I have a monster fan to point at the bike and cool temperatures this morning, I think I might give it a try. Bike starts easily and runs really smooth - so I hope this doesn't "hurt" anything - I'm just hoping for a bit more powerful throttle response.

---Daryl

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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-21-2011, 01:49 PM
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Running it right now waiting for the fan to come on. And my hi-power floor fan ready to run after that - no since cooling the motor and delaying the initial fan kick on. I also strapped it upright so it isn't leaning on it's stand - just cuz.


---Daryl

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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-21-2011, 02:29 PM Thread Starter
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LOL ! You are meticulous ! Check your PM
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-21-2011, 02:58 PM
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Heck yes I'm meticulous. I like that word - sounds much better than anal. I guess i'm just one of those guys that has a great running bike. No issues before and can't really tell any difference after. Was hoping it would start pulling like a R3. No such luck - just save my $$ for BB kit.

---Daryl

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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-22-2011, 12:36 AM
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I have a question for those of you who are knowledgeable about the various tunes.
Does performing the 12M tune undue or erase anything from a previous tune?
My bike is running much better now since the dealer recently installed the E030256 tune. I think it was running lean before - some popping and occasional hard starting. Now it's running more smoothly and is much quieter.
I've never done the 12M tune and don't want to screw up what's working well now. Should I leave good enough alone or could I benefit from the 12MT?

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