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I bought a metric feeler gauge today to retest my clearances after the valve adjustment before the parts get here. (broke a oil feed bolt and been waiting 2 weeks for it) I used a regular feeler with SAE and metric labeled feelers, but of course thats not ideal. So i turned the engine several revolutions as they tell you to and rechecked them with the new gauge and found they were not as well adjusted as i first thought. All are within spec but about 1/2 were on the tight side, and a few were right at the limit. So now when the parts arrive friday i can't just bolt the oil feed on and button it up and ride ........arg ! I'll have to get some more shims.

but what i'm wondering about are the ones that are say within 100th to the good. In other words, a intake thats .16. Thats 1/100th from being at the limit. So the question is, why do some clearances get tighter instead of looser? If i knew they'd all get looser i'd be fine. But apparently not. Tho i can't see what would make them tighter over time. It makes sense they'd get looser with wear. Any insight into this?

It's closing in on 3 weeks w/o the ride, and if the yammie dealer doesn't have the shim sizes i need it'll be another 2 weeks ! :( :( :(
 
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As the valves and seats wear, the valves sink deeper into the head extending the end of the valve further up closer to the cam.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Makes sense. then again the lobes and shims wear too, so unless the valves and seats wear faster i would still think they'd get looser. But at least now i see where they could get tighter due to wear. Thanks.
 

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If everything is oiled right & machined right there should not be any wear on the cam & shim/bucket. At least not until there are a lot of miles on the engine. If there was wear all the time then the valves would never stay adjusted. Nothing should ever touch metal to metal. That is what the oil film is for. But the most shear stress area for oil is the valve & cam area. That will break the oil down sooner. That is why new car engines have roller lifters. Mostly to save the oil. Not for racing. If there was wear on the cam then my Caprice wouldn't have 159,000 miles on the engine.
But the constant slamming shut of the valve to the seat with the hot gasses all around will erode the valve seats & valve. Hence less clearance. A few thousands too much clearance isn't much of a problem. Just noisy & not full valve opening. Too tight may lead to the valve not fully closing & then the valve will burn. Or it may backfire into the intake. But if the engine has been run awhile I don't see where a little too tight would be a problem. Mostly the clearances are only there because as the engine warms up things expand & clearances are less.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Hmm.....then assuming there should be no wear except under high milage, they should never get looser. at least untill i have a lot of miles. That makes me that much more aware that i need to do this again. really a bummer too because the yammie shims are $14 each and don't come in small enough increments for my needs unless i want to be at the verge of too loose. I think i'm not going to be able to get them adjusted w/o buying triumph shims, and that means another 2 weeks w/o the bike. This is friggin killing me. Triumph dealers are worthless. they literally never have had any parts i've needed and it takes a week to get from the distributor to the dealer, then a week to me.
 

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Daz, I hope you did not turn your engine over before you installed the sump and filled the engine sump back up with oil? Vegas
 

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No, i put oil in it last weekend. But anyways i certainly didn't turn it over with the starter. I just put it in 5th and rolled the bike. But yeah, i had oil in it when i did this today and even coated the bearing surfaces when i reinstalled the cames and coated the shims and buckets.

by the way, does anyone know of any other jap bikes that use the same shims (25mm) besides the yammie Vmax?
 

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Daz,
There's heaps take the 25mm shims most any bike shop should be able to get them or have them in nearly any size.

Darcy
 

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yes, i found that out. Did a google search and there are dozens of hondas and yamahas that take 25mm shims. Guess i should be able to get em easily here in L.A. where there are dozens of honda and yamaha dealers. I just hope unlike the Vmax shims i can get them in finer increments
 

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Daz,
You don't need to reshim if the clearance is only slightly larger than recommended. What's going to happen is that as the valves regress further into the seats the gap will close up and you will be back with the old shims.
I checked mine a 20,000 kms a few were a little wide. I was advised to leave them and check again at 25,000 kms.
If you always use good petrol ie 95 RON as per manual the seats will not regress as much as if you only use 92 petrol.

Darcy
 

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Daz - I purchased a used Service Manual last January, and when it arrived, the following info was inside on a separate sheet. Hopefully, this will point you to specific shims that'll work with your bike, in the event Triumph doesn't have them in stock.

Bob
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The New Triumph Bonneville Forum Page 1 of 1
Note - this information was included with the Shop Manual I purchased in January of 2006. Looks like it came from the Delphi Forum, which tells me I should start looking at that site.
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The diameter is 25mm, and the average thickness seems to be somewhere between 2.70 to say 3.10. If you are doing the valve shim replacement yourself, and your Triumph dealer doesn’t have the shims in stock, check out a Honda dealer or a Yamaha dealer. The Bonnie shims are common across several- bikes. Namely Honda and Yamaha. The shims "mike out" the exact same diameter as the originals and as I can attest, fit perfectly. Yamaha shims for the FJ1200/1100, tt/xt 350, seca II, venture, vmax and royalstar all fit and Honda shims for the CB 750/900/1000/1000/x fit.
These are the Honda part numbers I used when I did my valve adjustment. 14927-422-000 is for a 2.95 shim 14929-422-000 is for a 3.00 shim 14931-422-000 is for a 3.05 shim
If you need Yamaha numbers, these should work... 26h-12169-eO-00 is for a 2.95 shim 26h-12169-gO-00 is for a 3.00 shim 26h-12169-jO-00 is for a 3.05 shim
Forget special tools to help compress the bucket while you remove the shims. The cams have to be removed to replace the inner most valve shims, as the cam bearing cap design won’t allow you access to the shims any other way. The only "special tool" you will need is some sort of way to secure the backlash gear to the cam gear. The cam gear has a 6mm hole, while the backlash gear is a 4mm hole. I would use a ground down allen wrench or something similar to hold the backlash gear from turning while you remove the cams. When I did mine, I used a 4mm diameter bolt with a 6mm bushing fitted over it...worked fine.
http://forurns.delphiforums.eom/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=New_Bonneville&msg=9422.1 7/19/2004
Ride Safe
 

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Discussion Starter #12
DB...yeah, i'm not worried about that. I'm worried about tthe ones that are right on the line. There are 2 inlets that are at .15 and one exaust at .25, so if they get any tighter at all they'll be out of spec. I don't mind if they are loose as long as they aren't over the spec, but the tight ones must be re-adjusted. One of those .15 inlets is on the tighter side of the .15 feeler too, so it's probably almost .14.

Bob...i actually found a lot of info with google. I have a huge list of yammies and hondas that use 25 mm shims. So i can't imagine having a problem finding them. The only problem is that even in the numbers on your sheet there don't seem to be any inbetween numbers. They seem to come only in .05 increments. So it may be hard to get them inside spec by any amount. In other words, if for example either of the the shims in the inlets are rounded to the nearest .05, then the best i could do is put them on the outer spec so they'd now be at the loose edge instead of the tight edge. the range is .15 to .20 for the inlets, so if the shims in there now are say 2.80, all i could do is make the clearances .20. Hopefully i can juggle shims again, tho this time it's going to be a real brain teaser.
 

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Daz - Until you posting, I didn't realize that Triumph (per Service Manual) provides shims in 0.025mm increments, between 2.00mm to 3.20mm. (I'm not sure that Honda or Yam doesn't .... the info I posted doesn't say yay or nay). Glad you made me aware ... I can ck it out before I start on the shim change job later this month.

Bob
 

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On 2006-11-15 19:11, dazco wrote:
All are within spec but about 1/2 were on the tight side, and a few were right at the limit. So now when the parts arrive friday i can't just bolt the oil feed on and button it up and ride ........arg ! I'll have to get some more shims.
If they are all in spec that's good enough. If it was my bike, I would button it up and go ride another 12000 miles before I worry about it again.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I got some honda shims. They sell used ones at $7 at the dealer near me. They are only in .05 increments, but being used is a good thing because many were worn a bit and so i was able to get a little closer to the ideal specs. One intake is still a bit closer to the tight end than i'd like at .165, but it's good enough. the rest are in the middle or to the high side, so it's good to go. The parts i need to button it up are due tomorrow so we'll see if the washer shows it's ugly side or not, and hopfully the vibes will be gone. Haven't ridden for weeks, so this weekend should finally be the first one in a long time barring any catistropic problems. cross your fingers for me.

I did however learn a few things i'd like to pass on to those who have yet to do this and are going to. Don't, i repeat DON'T use a SAE feeler gauge even tho they have mm conversions on them. Please trust me on this. KD tools has a dedicated metric one and i found it locally at one of those dedicated tool shops for 10 bucks. After useing a SAE at first i now know that conversions or not, you will NOT get the accuracy you NEED. Second, check and recheck every clearance at least a couple times till you have a definate feel for the exact measurment. Do the same with the shims using a accurate caliper and DO NOT rely on the size the shims have printed on them. Of the 6 shims i bough 3 were new and none of them was exactly what the nuber said. Sometimes you will get false readings for any number of reasons, so check them at least 3 times zeroing the caliper each time till you get a reading that comes up most every time. And take the caliper with you when you go to buy shims !!! Please trust me on all these things or you more than likely will end up taking the cams out 3 or 4 times. Ask me how i know ! And finally, download Pats shim calculator below. It's not necassary like the rest, but it is handy.

Next time i do this it will be a breeze. If you follow the suggestions i made you'll find it's no where near as scary/hard as it sounds. And for the backlash gears i simply used a dremel to make the pins. triumph has them for somthing like $45 bucks eash ! you can make them in 10 minutes each with a dremel and fiberglass cutoff wheel. Or maybe a 1/2 hour each with a file. You can make them from screws or metal dowel or whatever you can find that fits the large hole resonably tight, then grind down about 1/4" of one end to a smaller size that fits the smaller hole in the backlash gear. or stick it in a drill and lathe the end down with a file. Shims can be had at a honda or yamaha dealer. they are 25mm diameter and just ask for shims for a CB750 custom or for the Vmax at a yammie dealer. they fit dozens of hondas but thats the one i remember on the list. If the dealer sells used ones all the better since the worn ones will give you in-between increments plus they're a buck or 2 cheaper. write down the EXACT clearance of each valve and then next to it the EXACT size of the shim that was in it. Sit in front of your PC with a text editor ond pats shim calculator open and figure out just which size you need to get the clearance you want. Then take the list and a caliper to the dealer and sit there measuring shims till you find what you need. If the dealer has new shims that are packaged, i'd go elsewhere and find a dealer that has them loose because as i said they don't usually conform to the exact size they're labeled, new or not !

Pat's shim calculator

[ This message was edited by: dazco on 2006-11-16 15:46 ]
 

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Good writeup, Daz - I've shimmed my W650 valves a couple of times, but it's good to read a first hand account from someone who has recently done the Bonnie engine.

Bob
 

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Discussion Starter #17
On 2006-11-16 15:56, ohiorider wrote:
Good writeup, Daz - I've shimmed my W650 valves a couple of times, but it's good to read a first hand account from someone who has recently done the Bonnie engine.

Bob
Yeah, the manual tells you all the basic stuff, but it's little details like i described which they let you figure out yourself that will have you pulling your hair out. Thats why i felt it would be good to write it up. Hopefully i'll remember this thread and can point to it when others ask about thier first adjustment in the future.
 

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Thanks Daz. You make it sound easy. The only thing I was concerned about was the backlash tool. The Haynes manual mentions something about making a tool. I didn't pay much attention to it. You mentioned using a caliper. Was that a 0-1 inch micrometer? That is what I have. A zero to one inch mic.
Good write up. Maybe to add to it (since I haven't really looked under the valve cover other than installing a chrome one) a person might lay a rag or rags or paper towels in the areas that something might drop down into the engine. Everytime I am under a hood of a car at work I drop something. Always have, always will. Usually the tool I need that I layed aside. Got to get out from under the hood & retrieve it. Did it today. Or a washer or bolt. Got plenty of magnets.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
On 2006-11-16 22:18, 357Bob wrote:
Thanks Daz. You make it sound easy. The only thing I was concerned about was the backlash tool. The Haynes manual mentions something about making a tool. I didn't pay much attention to it. You mentioned using a caliper. Was that a 0-1 inch micrometer? That is what I have. A zero to one inch mic.
Good write up. Maybe to add to it (since I haven't really looked under the valve cover other than installing a chrome one) a person might lay a rag or rags or paper towels in the areas that something might drop down into the engine. Everytime I am under a hood of a car at work I drop something. Always have, always will. Usually the tool I need that I layed aside. Got to get out from under the hood & retrieve it. Did it today. Or a washer or bolt. Got plenty of magnets.
I have a digital caliper, but a micrometer would be fine if it's in metric, tho more time consuming. I wouldn't use an sae even tho you can convert. It really becomes mind numbing and makes it easy to make mistakes. Mine is quite accurate and only $15 at harbor freight. Well worth getting if you are going to do this. As to the backlash tool, you just need to make them. It's quite simple and a heck of a lot better than payin a fortune to triumph. You'll need 2 because you'll neeed to have both cams out at the same time if you're going to swap shims between valves. and thats a must unless you don't mind spending a lot more on shims. I bough 6 shims in all, but only because i made the mistakes i mentioned in that post of not using a metric feeler and not taking the time to triple check sizes and go slow and be accurate. can't stress that enough. I only ended up needing i think 3 of the shims i bought. the rest of them i was able to swap shims from one valve to another.

Oh, and i did lay towels over the holes that i could drop things down ! Thats the ironic thing about it. I did that the whole time, then when i had everything installed i pulled the rags out and began torquing the oil feed bolts which were the last thing i had to do before putting the cover back on. Thats when i over torqed one of the bots and it broke off and the washer flew in ! Talk about $hit luck, geeez....
anyways, tomorrow the parts arrive and we'll see what happens. i just hope i don't start riding and hear a "clunk" and the bike stops running. If that happens my next purchase won't be chrome, it'll be rope. :-D
 

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Yeah your right. I forgot about the metric thing. But there are some neat conversion web sites. Saves the brain. I also used to have a disk with all the conversions on it. Lost the disk & the computer went South. But Google something about conversion charts. They are great. But a metric tool would be better.
I missed the part about the bolt breaking. That is bad too. Good luck on your parts.
I knew about the shims may be able to be swapped. Good idea to remind us though.
Going to be another cold ride to work tomorrow.
 
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