[TR7RVMan]

Hi All, Need to learn about this regulator. I was told it's not really old. It has the dark brown potting material, not clear green like in new parts sellers photos.

What I really need to know is what is the wattage rating.

Will it handle 2 wire Wassell/Emgo 16A 200w two wire stator?

Has normal Lucas rotor with date code of 11/99

If it cannot handle the watts of the "special" high output 2 wire, what would happen?
Would/could it cause stator to overheat & melt?

Charging is working fine, battery is 12.67v & has no low voltage or running issues of any kind.

The new Tympanium is rated at 200w, but what about this one?
Thanks, Don

 

[rambo]

I would expect that one to have a rating of double the alternator output as manufacturers would not make one that runs hot with that potting material. Bigger worry will be the life of that Wassel stator.

 

[Tritn Thrashr]

Failed regulators sometimes let voltage get too high, endangering the battery and all electronic components.

So far as I know, these permanent magnet alternators can’t generate more current than the stator windings can handle, though I’m no expert and I could be out of date.

 

[Adam M.]

I used it on my A65 with "high output" 200 w alternator without a problem. In reality alternator gives the same power as old RM 21, higher output you can get with higher revs ( like 7 k ) which you never really reach for longer than a few minutes. Real higher output alternator is 3 phase RM 24, not 1 phase RM 23.

 

[TR7RVMan]

Hi Adam, Thanks for reply. Exactly which Typanium regulator did you use? The earlier dark brown potting or the more recent clearish green potting.

What headlamp bulb are you using? Do you ride with headlamp on all the time?

This stator overheated & melting, even though it's still charging fine. Only 600 miles on it.
Could the Typanium being too small of rating have caused it?

Found melted when resealing primary cover. At first looked like rotor was rubbing. But in fact rotor had at lease .008" clearance from all poles. The resin/plastic melted then that rubbed rotor. Notice the finger of white plastic that melted & running down. Careful inspection of rotor after cleaning off plastic shows no metal to metal rubbing. Soaked rotor in gas 24 hrs with keepers on it to soften plastic. Sort of did.

Measuring about .3-.4 ohms. My original stator reads the same or very, very close. This is with both digital & analog meters compensated for leads. So the actual ohms.
Thanks, Don

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Don,

Need to learn about this regulator. I was told

There was a thread a few(?) months ago, turned out the OP's Tymp had failed when used with a high-output alternator, affecting the EI.

Afaik, John Healy is both "Mr. Podtronics" and "Mr. Tympanium", ask him?

Would/could it cause stator to overheat & melt?

No. To echo @Tritn Thrashr's post, the alternator is the power source in the AC circuit between stator and reg./rec.; what the stator generates depends on factors like rotor magnetic strength, rotor rotation speed, distance between rotor and stator, stator coils wire thickness, number of stator coils, blah.

Hth.

Regards,

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Adam,

Real higher output alternator is 3 phase RM 24, not 1 phase RM 23.

To be clear, the original RM23 was "high-output", in that it produced more than the contemporary RM21 - RM21 10.5A/120W @ 5,000 rpm, original RM23 14.5A/180W @ 5,000 rpm. Aside, the original RM23 was intended for bikes requiring higher alternator output - e.g. police bikes - although Norton offered it as an option on 'civvy' Commandos and fitted it as standard to the electric-start Mk.3.

I used it on my A65 with "high output" 200 w alternator without a problem. In reality alternator gives the same power as old RM 21, higher output you can get with higher revs ( like 7 k )

Mmmm ... actually "gives the same power as old RM 21" was/is a problem:-

. as above, 'original Lucas' rated the original RM23 for more @ their standard 5,000 rpm;

. given they also advertised "75% of rated @ 2,400 rpm" for the RM21 and RM23, original RM23's produced more @ 2,400 rpm than the low-output version of the RM24.

However, as usual, biggest problem with the current "high output" single-phase stators (Wassell offer both "16A" and "20A") is Wassell themselves - never any rpm/Amps curves; without them, but with first-hand experience like yours, Wassell's claims are bullsh1t.

Hth.

Regards,

 

[rambo]

You might remember the Plewsey video where John fitted a Wassel unit then it burnt out in a short useage. Plewsey is also lunmad.

 

[Adam M.]

I used a dark one with my RM 21 and later 23 and haven't any problems with melting stator (it was bad looking original Lucas ), however this reg/rec failed after perhaps 6 years and I bought another one which worked to the moment I sold the bike after 10 years of using it. I was using 35 / 45W main bulb and the rest of them was stock, no LEDs and in my province I had to use lights all the time. I had voltmeter installed in my ammeter place on main lamp and could see much lower state of charging than expected from high output version of the stator ( measly 12.7V @ 3 - 3500 rpm which was my average range in town ) with lights on, but can't vouch for the quality of my rotor which was also original and probably week.
Just answering another post, if you are not sure about Tympanium why not to use Chinese CBR copy TT wrote about? Good for 500V.

 

[TR7RVMan]

Hi All, Thank you very much for the replies. The bank is running dry, so cost is important.

I see Bonneville Shop sells a Sparx 10A single phase. Spec sheet on add shows it's special built to give more amps, watts at lower rpm than stock Lucas. That might be a practical solution.

Truth be told the bike was working fine on the original 10A. Not sure why it was changed. Using LED headlight anyway. The only other consumer not stock is a GPS, The power cord has such skinny wires, it couldn't draw much current?? I don't have unit on hand to see specs for it.

I've got to digest this a bit. Then decide. I don't I want to use the Wassell 16A. This motor never sees high rpm use. It will see many long hours on the road though. Total output at high rpm is useless for this bike. Sparx does well according to spec sheet between 2000-4000. That's right where most my riding friends & me ride.

The other issue is the primary cover pressing so hard to the stator wire where it exits stator. I'll cut potting of stator apart & see what I can see. Primary cover photo shows contact patch of red grease I used for diagnosis. Again this is LF Harris sand cast primary cover. I don't recommend it. Way too thick. Die cast original cover cleared fine. I'm going to try to grind thinner for good clearance. Also the stator stuck out .025" farther than original which made matters worse.

The little cut on the right wire in photo was from razor blade when I opened wire jacket. I see not faults in insulation or conductors even though were pressed flat. But was internal wiring displaced??
Don

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Don,

I see Bonneville Shop sells a Sparx 10A single phase. Spec sheet on add shows it's special built to give more amps, watts at lower rpm than stock Lucas. That might be a practical solution.

Cobblers ...

Think about this ... how can one "10A" "give more amps" than another "10A"? The "A" stands for "Amps", the clue is in the the numbers ...

Yes, I'm sure the Sparx "Spec sheet" shows more Watts, but that's an easy one:-

. Electrical Watts are simply a multiplication of Amps by Volts, the formula is P=IE.

. 'Original Lucas' rated the RM21 for 10.5 Amps and 120 Watts @ 5,000 rpm. Divide 120 by 10.5 is 11.43 Volts.

. Sparx's @ 5,000 rpm Amps and Watts are 10.75A and 150.5W. Divide 150.5 by 10.75 is 14V. How many times have you tested an alternator's charging by connecting a Voltmeter across the battery and watched the Volts rise with engine rpm 'til about 3,500~4,000 rpm? Does "14V" look a lot like the figure you see on the Voltmeter when the engine's spinning around 3,500~4,000 rpm?

If a bike's system DC Volts are higher than nominal 12V, while the alternator might be 'producing' proportionally more, every consumer is also using proportionally more. There is no free lunch.

Then "special built" for one-quarter of an Amp? Really? In reality, it's rubbish, the "10.5A/120W" (@ 5,000 rpm) quoted by 'original Lucas' were minima, not absolute

In English vernacular, "they're 'avin' a larf" - "SPARX ALT WATTS" are for nothing more than bamboozling the gullible with more money than electrical knowledge or sense.

Sparx does well according to spec sheet between 2000-4000.

As I say, no, it doesn't do any "better" than the original RM21.

C'mon, you know what the solution is ... Resistance is futile ...

Hth.

Regards,

 

[TR7RVMan]

Hi Stuart, Of course you are correct. How many times have I whipped this dead horse?!!

At this point I don't see owner going to 3 phase at this time. So looks like 10A is what will go in. We'll see if that changes. Not set in stone. Truth be told bike worked fine for many years with old 10A. 16A was installed, "just because". Looks good on paper...

Still whipping the horse... How does Wassell get 16A 200w out of 2 wires? Is it somehow wound differently? More or less turns of wire, or wire gauge different? See what I mean?

How does SPARX get more power at lower RPM, even if only a tiny bit more?

See what I mean? I'm curious about this stuff. Even if the horse is long dead.
Don

 

[Rancidpegwoman]

Hi Don,
While you are making up your mind, don’t forget to wrap the rotor in steel to preserve it’s magnetism while the stator is off.
As for going 3 phase just bite the bullet, you have to spend the money anyway. It is one thing that I can guarantee you will not regret.
In a previous post, you said your battery flattens after an hour in urban riding. We have all been there with single phase, trying to switch the headlamp off in areas of less danger, avoiding the brake light, revving in lower gears to keep the power up, timing the kickstart within milliseconds of switching on the ignition while trying to start with a flat battery, etc, etc. 3 phase takes all of that away, just ride with a big grin.
You can even indulge in my favourite, night riding on a warm summer night, cutting across country on empty roads, just you the bike, the road and the stars, just looking for a sunrise and a good breakfast.

RM24 just gives you more 😊

Regards
Peg

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Don,

How does Wassell get 16A 200w out of 2 wires?

Afaik, 'original Lucas' did it by using thicker wire for the stator coils ... However, their RM23 generated more than their RM21 at all rotor rpm; otoh, @Adam M. (and others over the years) have reported no discernible extra power at lower rpm from the Wassell version.

Given Wassell haven't ever published a rpm-Amps graph for their "16A" (or their "20A") 2-wire stators, an ungenerous interpretation is an original Lucas RM23 can produce 16A ... if the rotor's spinning at about 8,000 rpm ...

How does SPARX get more power at lower RPM,

Afaik, the "STD ALT AMPS" either don't refer to Lucas alternators or they aren't true ...

... is the advert. that appeared for several months in 1978 certainly in British motorcycle magazines, after Lucas launched the RM24; note the solid line on the graph is "Standard RM21 at 12V"; note how closely it matches the "SPARX ALT AMPS" figures ...

Hth.

Regards,

 

[TR7RVMan]

Hi Peg, Thanks for the reminder of rotor not being left open on bench. I did put rotor keepers on the rotor. I store my spare rotor in the spare stator.
Don

 

[TR7RVMan]

Hi Stuart, Thanks for the info. Never saw that add or chart before. I'll save & print that.
I don't know yet what stator will be used. My hunch will be Sparx 10a. At least I'm getting a little better handle on this stuff. I still have to compare Podtronics regulator #s with TriSpark troubleshooting page to see what's compatible. Otherwise you need to install an electric choke device. Yet another set of connections & something else that could fail. I know it's just a winding over a core, but if it can go bad, it will for me.
Don

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Don,

don't know yet what stator will be used. My hunch will be Sparx 10a. At least I'm getting a little better handle on this stuff. I still have to compare Podtronics regulator #s with TriSpark troubleshooting page to see what's compatible. Otherwise you need to install an electric choke device.

"TriSpark troubleshooting page" or do you mean "Sparx troubleshooting page"?

If the latter, are you sure you aren't over-thinking again? A "Sparx 10A" is a pattern of a RM21, why would you need "an electric choke device" between a pattern Lucas stator and a Pod?

Regards,

 

[Rancidpegwoman]

Hi
Steve from Tri Spark has an issue with electrical noise coming from the podtronics RR, and spikes from the 200w high output single phase alternator, interfering with his EI. He has ‘developed’ a filter to use with the podtronics. I suspect it might be a ferrite ring.
Perhaps it would be better to build a filter into the EI .

https://www.trispark.com.au/assets/files/Misfiring%20at%203000%20to%204000%20RMP%20-Caused%20by%20Voltage%20Regulator.pdf

Filter for Electrical Noise Reduction

Filter for Electrical Noise Reduction - Tri-Spark

www.trispark.com.au

Don, also check out the Shin Dengen 777 phase control RR, designed to let the stator run much cooler, expensive though. But you have already experienced a hot running Stator.
It might not be suitable for single phase, you would need to check.

Regards
Peg.

 

[TR7RVMan]

Hi Stuart & Peg, Thanks for the input! I did mean TriSpark missfire. I called the filter a choke because I'm old. We installed them all the time at the dealer back in the 70s for alternator noise on radios.

Here's the info page from TriSpark regarding voltage regulator & misfire.

https://www.trispark.com.au/assets/files/Misfiring%20at%203000%20to%204000%20RMP%20-Caused%20by%20Voltage%20Regulator.pdf

Here's the Podtronics page for part #s. It is the 200w single phase POD-1P-HP regulator 12V 200W that is problematic for TriSpark.

Economical replacement for Lucas rectifier and zener diode

In any case it was decided today to use the Sparx 10W single phase. Bike worked good for years with the original Lucas 10A so that's what was decided on. $90.00US
Don

 

[Batty]

Hi Don,

I have had the exact same problem with a T100R that I recently purchased but had not been run. The stator looked brand new - it was a genuine Lucas 10A two wire unit. The regulator looked exactly the same as yours, but without any markings. It has an alloy body with two bolt holes - like yours - and the electronic are sealed with dark green resin.

After just a few miles or breaking in, I removed the chain case cover to fix an oil leak and was shocked to find that the stator had melted! However, just like you, there was no evidence or any rubbing. Indeed, the stator was pretty much melted all around, whereas rubbing would surely have resulted in local heating on one side only? The stator was also a tight fit on the 3 studs and, after cleaning up the melted plastic, I refitted it. There was no scope for adjustment, but I could fit a 8 thou feeler gauge in the gap all the way around.

The chain case had a lot of hard plastic resin shavings inside and the stator was severely distorted and cracked - but still worked! - producing about 14.5V at the battery.

I have ordered a new stator, but I am thinking that the problem could be a dodgy regulator. So I intend to fit a Wassel one.

Did you ever sort out your issue?

Cheers

Batty