[wol]

Trying to sort out the correct wiring for the horn relay on my 1970 T120R - its a Genuine Lucas relay marked 6 RV - when i google it i find the POD in his infinite wisdom used 6RA as a reference for a multitude of relays and other items mainly with 4 conns so no help
-- my relay has 3 connections C1 -- C2 and W1
-- any one know what wires go where ?
- pic is attatched - ignore my scribbles in the backround

 

[KADUTZ]

wol


C1 - BROWN/BLUE WIRES TO HORNS


C2- BROWN/BLUE "HOT" WIRE IN HARNESS


W1 - BROWN/BLACK? WIRE FROM HORN BUTTON


Always found it interesting how they mounted the relay in the frame.


K

 

[wol]

Thanks K - i thought C1 was to the horns but unsure which was which on the other two

regarding the relay position - i have found two options - pics attatched

above the coils is where mine came fitted but i am going to use the other position because i am going to fit a reg/rec in the position above the coils

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Wol, K,

W1 - BROWN/BLACK? WIRE FROM HORN BUTTON

:nod

how they mounted the relay in the frame.

i have found two options - pics attatched

Bigger picture, :nah second picture, maybe (it's too small to be sure and the wiring's been done with Bodger's Terminals); on the twins, it was always a complete assembly of relay and horns, attached to the underside of the front tank mounting bracket ... with two 1/4" bolts ... :Not again

i am going to use the other position

What horns are you actually using?

The two earliest iterations of the Clearhooters (shown in the '69 and '70 parts books) were heavy (they were basically car horns) and Meriden attached each horn to the bracket and then the bracket to the frame with a couple of the aforementioned 1/4" bolts. The longest-lasting of the Clearhooters (because they were the lightest) were the ones fitted to '71-on T150's and Rocket 3's; they would be correct on a '69 or '70 twin (but agitate the bobblies) because Triumph and BSA replaced so many of the earlier ones under warranty. arn However, working versions of any Clearhooter are rocking-horse poo ... and they aren't very loud ... :bluduh

Genuine Lucas relay marked 6 RV - when i google it i find the POD in his infinite wisdom used 6RA as a reference for a multitude of relays

Correct. All 'original Lucas' parts had both some sort of 'group' reference ("6RA" in this case) and an individual reference - the '70 Triumph US-market 650 parts book has "33188".

If you Google "lucas 33188" and ignore all the obviously-brand-new 'Wassell Genuine Lucas" rubbish, you should see at least https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lucas-33188-Horn-Relay-NOS-74-75-Trident-T120-69-70-NP608-/331405284984 and https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-GENUINE-LUCAS-33188-6RA-HORN-RELAY-LIGHTNING-BONNEVILLE-TRIDENT-ROCKET-III-/263933217281, both with just the three separate terminals.

'Original Lucas' did also make 6RA relays with four separate terminals - the additional one is marked W2; with W1, they have a separate supply and return from C1/C2 - but Lucas gave 'em different 5-figure individual references.

with 4 conns so no help

Brown/Blue simply needs to be connected to W2 as well as C2.

Hth.

Regards,

 

[wol]

the smaller picture is one i found ontinternt - just to find evidence of how the parts in the parts book fit together - the thin "L" shaped braket i think is a home made jobbie and does not look quite right but close enough -- i think i will have to make one too as i cant find one as yet

What horns ? - good question - havent got any that would pass as original - for now i will be fitting a pair of cheapies from China , at least they are light, being smaller ( even so the riveted on mounting brackets eventually crack but at less than two squid each delivered what can you expect)- will be looking out for some "proper" ones - but prices are scarey!

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Wol,

What horns ?

Japanese Nikko YP. :thumb They're available as aftermarket accessories and they were fitted to some late-1970's/early-1980's Suzis; recommended on TOL several times over the years as Clearhooter substitutes, some owners even paint 'em black.

will be looking out for some "proper" ones - but prices are scarey!

As I say, unfortunately 'cos they're rocking-horse poo. Original "'69" ones - pan-shaped plastic cover - had a design fault, in that there was an unplated steel washer in the centre of the diaphragm, which rusted and trashed the diaphragm ... arn

Correct "'70" ones - dome-shaped steel cover - have an oblong trumpet opening. Afaict, these were peculiar to Triumphs and BSA's, the more-common car ones have a triangular trumpet opening; relatively cheap at car autojumbles, Triumph and BSA owners will try to persuade you out of lots of money for 'em. But they're as heavy as '69 ones; if you find a pair of either and want to fit them, I advise securing 'em with cable ties as well the bolts - when the inevitable happens to the bolts, at least the horn won't go bouncing down the road.

Back in the naughties, Burton Bike Bits set out to have new '69 and '70 Clearhooters made ... They had a batch of each made in NZ ... in Christchurch ... just before the big 2010 earthquake ... :Not again

Floating around t'internet for years have been claims that some Triumphs and BSA's were fitted with twin Lucas 6H's. Not impossible as long as a 6H's mounting bracket has two 1/4" ID holes closer together than, and in addition to, the usual two 5/16" ID holes; just the latter on their own are further apart than any Clearhooter's mounting. And two 6H's won't give you a Clearhooter pair's combination of high and low notes ...

Hth.

Regards,

 

[wol]

thanks for the info on the Nikko YP horns - will see what i can find

 

[KADUTZ]

thanks for the info on the Nikko YP horns - will see what i can find

Nothing wrong with the NIKKO horns they make noise.


For what its worth if you are going to use the stock bracket (83-1254) I would suggest the addition of a small brace from the base to the bent parts. I have repeatedly seen the bracket break at the bends. I would also suggest safety wiring the horn bodies to the bike. As when the bracket or horn bracket breaks (note I didn't say if) you will not have a scratched fender or lost horn. Been there done that.


Regarding the 1970 T120 horns. Early models (up to about January 1970 builds used the Dome Style horn Stuart mentions (part numbers 60-2256 & 60-2257 . The 2256 was a Clear Hooter P201 and the 2257 was a Clear Hooter P101) About December 1969/January 1970 there was a problem with the previously mentioned horns.


Was it a horn availability or horn quality problem I do not know. I suspect it may have been the bracket breaking due to the horn weight.


Regardless about January 1970 Triumph starting using Clear Hooter horns Triumph part numbers 60-2623 & 60-2624 (Clear Hooter part numbers HF80 lo note & HF80 high note) These are the same horns used on 1971 and later T150's These horn resemble the LUCAS 6H and is where the confusion comes from.


1970 was a long production year with many running production line changes that were not necessarily documented properly.


K

 

[Adam M.]

In my Trident I have the same relay but with 5 connectors :
C 1 is double going to horns,
C 2 is hot double white wire,
W 1 is purple wire from a horn button
W 2 is double red wire ( battery + )
I understand from Stuart post it should be another hot white wire or not ?
I didn't have my horns installed yet, so doesn't know is this set up works or not.

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Adam,

In my Trident I have the same relay but with 5 connectors

Uh-uh. I posted "four separate terminals", which is what you've listed; C1 is just a double terminal, which is why it's convenient to connect the two separate horn supply wires to it.

C 1 is double going to horns,
C 2 is hot double white wire,
W 1 is purple wire from a horn button
W 2 is double red wire ( battery + )
I understand from Stuart post it should be another hot white wire or not ?
I didn't have my horns installed yet, so doesn't know is this set up works or not.

'71-on (e.g. your Trident) horn/relay wiring is different from pre-'71 (e.g. Wol's '70 T120R) horn wiring:-

. Fundamentally, pre-'71, the horn/s could be sounded irrespective of whether the ignition was on or off; '71-on, it/they could only be sounded with the ignition on.

. C2-C1 is the horns supply; '71-'74 C2 has a White wire (only "hot" when the ignition switch is on), pre-'71 C2 has a Brown/Blue wire (unswitched "hot" directly from battery -ve).

. The three-separate-terminal 6RA relay used only in '69 and '70 is odd in that C2 is also the supply for W1 (Brown/Black wire to the horn button). Pressing the button completes the relay switching circuit simply by connecting the button to the handlebar (through the mounting screws ), then it's a Lucas 'magic earth' through sundry bits of bike to an attached Red wire somewhere.

. The four-separate-terminal 6RA relay is more conventional in that the switched (C1-C2) is completely-separate from the switching (W1-W2); '71-on, the handlebar horn button is supplied by a White wire, the wire from the horn button to relay W1 is (should be) Lucas/British Standard Purple/Black, the Red wire on relay W2 is simply the switching circuit return to battery +ve.

Wol and anyone else battling with the Mickey-Mouse pre-'71 horn button: the 'magic earth' can be improved by attaching a Red wire inside the horn button body, threading it beside the other horn/dipswitch wires and connecting it to existing harness Red wires.

Hth.

Regards.

 

[wol]

Stuart - thanks for the tip about strengthening the bracket -- i have been aware of breakages relating to the twin horn assy but never known "wot broke" -- this is the first twin horn assy i have said so never previously though about confirming where the failure occurs

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Wol,

thanks for the tip about strengthening the bracket

Not guilty, that was @KADUTZ.

been aware of breakages relating to the twin horn assy but never known "wot broke" -- this is the first twin horn assy i have said so never previously though about confirming where the failure occurs

Mmmm ... around the time my T150 came to me with just one non-working HF80, I was considering the Clearhooters arrangement for my T100 (it notionally being a R). Having acquired a pair of the car domed Clearhooters for the T150 and seen the twins' standard bracket, even I could work out it was always A Dumb Idea; whoever signed it off for '69 was clearly on a promise that night ...

Fwiw, since acquiring a Honda fitted with twin Fiamms, and seeing how high wandering drivers and their passengers jump even on the motorway, > all my bikes except the T150 have been fitted with them - T160's off the frame lug above the one used for the twins' front head-steadies, T100 on longer front tank mounting studs. Each pair of Fiamms came with a 'cube' relay - T160's mounted with other relays in the original underseat tools compartment, T100 where your earlier larger image shows a 6RA.

If I were really keen of having something that looks like the original twins' arrangement, I think I'd first find a metal-basher willing to make up the bracket in something thicker than standard, rubber-mount it on the frame (possibly with 5/16" bolts?), mount only lightweight (but loud) horns and save more weight by hiding a cube relay in the headlamp shell?

Hth.

Regards,

 

[wol]

sorry Kadutz for the miscredit on the strengthening of the bracket

just received a NOS bracket as my T120R did not come with one -- now i have it in front of me i can see it is poory designed -- the part that is "bent" has just a partial shear that provides a stess point that obviously is just waiting to break --- i think i will drill it to stop the shear point cracking and spark a weld on it too

 

[bucksfizz]

Fwiw, since acquiring a Honda fitted with twin Fiamms, and seeing how high wandering drivers and their passengers jump even on the motorway, > all my bikes except the T150 have been fitted with them - T160's off the frame lug above the one used for the twins' front head-steadies, T100 on longer front tank mounting studs. Each pair of Fiamms came with a 'cube' relay - T160's mounted with other relays in the original underseat tools compartment, T100 where your earlier larger image shows a 6RA.

I'm with Stuart on this one.
I have twin Fiamms on three of my bikes, and they are loud.
Also they're pretty cheap - the last set I bought cost ~ £15/$20.
They're not the prettiest, but I'm not that bothered.
This is what they look like on my 850 Commando:

 

[KADUTZ]

Hi Wol,


Not guilty, that was @KADUTZ.

Regards,

Thanks Stuart


K

 

[KADUTZ]

sorry Kadutz for the miscredit on the strengthening of the bracket

just received a NOS bracket as my T120R did not come with one -- now i have it in front of me i can see it is poory designed -- the part that is "bent" has just a partial shear that provides a stess point that obviously is just waiting to break --- i think i will drill it to stop the shear point cracking and spark a weld on it too

Not a problem & you are very welcome.


Its your bike do as you wish. I still suggest a brace to dampen the vibrations. Also be aware there were two versions of the 83-1254 bracket. The second version was supposed to have been strengthened.( I have the starting VIN number at home) I don't think it made much difference. I always felt the real problem was the weight of the horns & vibration.


But be aware it is not just the horn bracket that lets go. The brackets attached to the horns break also. I remember one day looking down and seeing one of my horns dangling in the breeze at 65 mph.


K

 

[Adam M.]

Hi Stuart, excellent answer like always - yes my horn button is purple black and now I have better understanding of 2 different relays working.

 

[wol]

i believe you are correct in that its the weight of the horn playing the the biggest part in causing fractures --- i will be fitting a pair of horns but they will be small lightweght ones ( about 2 1/2 inch diameter) -- its the type i fit to all my bikes as i think the original ones look far too cluncky and not that good in the noise department

 

[KADUTZ]

wol

Earlier I mentioned a VIN number when the bracket that was number ED44339. The change was two sliding brackets were fitted to the horn brackets. I have never been able to locate updated part numbers for this.
But then I have never been able to come up with the part number for the all chrome lifting handle used on the early build 1970 models. There is one of those on a '70 T120R for sale on US EBay (#273812830452). That bike has a VIN JD25991. I have only seen a few of these all chrome one piece handles and the bikes VIN has been in the first two months of the 1970 model year build.

K

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Adam,

excellent answer like always - yes my horn button is purple black and now I have better understanding of 2 different relays working.

Thank you, pleased I could help.

Regards,