[xav3ta]

As I publish this first post with a few weeks lag compared to reality, it is necessary to go back a little in the past to start...

2 months ago...

It is therefore a 350 Twenty One (3TA) from 1965, with the same frame and engine numbers.
She's been in a barn for over 40 years and to begin with it looks like a rescue.

I have the names of all the owners since 1965, it was bought in London at Elite Motors then it was sold to a Frenchwoman in the 1970s.


It is complete except for a few details, but the engine and the gearbox are blocked and of course the rust is everywhere.

The side casings are missing (bathtub !) but I'm not sure I'm trying to put them back!


Here are the photos taken after having washed it a little...

To start I will buy withworth tools and get documentation and parts lists !

 

[Happyfeet]

Welcome to the forum and looking forward to watching your progress!

 

[steved57]

Same here - looking forward to this so keep us updated as you move forward

 

[StuartMac]

Hi,

documentation and parts lists

Index of free-to-read-online parts lists, 350 is the same as the 500 so you use 500 1965 NO6 99-0829 and maybe 500 1965 NO6 Catalog Update.

Triumph 350/500 Workshop Manual free-to-read-online - notice it covers all years of the range from 1963 to 1974 so always be sure you are reading information that applies to your bike and/or year.

You can also buy a paper copy of the workshop manual brand-new either direct from the publisher or through a spares dealer; regrettably, specifically the 1965 parts list is not available new (maybe only termporarily?) but can probably be found on Ebay.

buy withworth tools

To be clear, you require British Standard spanners and sockets - Whitworth is a coarse (low thread count) threadform not found on your bike and a slang term in the US for anything British Standard. Spanners (= US "wrenches") and sockets will usually be marked with two fractions, the larger with "BS", the smaller with "W".

The threadforms on your bike are:-

. 1/4-inch diameter and larger - British Standard Cycle (also known as "CEI" and often shortened to just "Cycle") into iron and steel, including bolts and screws into nuts; British Standard Fine into aluminium alloy.

. Smaller than 1/4-inch diameter - British Association - because BA diameters and thread counts are decimals of both inches and millimetres, each size is designated by a number and "BA" - for example, 2BA (a little smaller than both 3/16-inch and 5 mm.) is a very common small screw size on your bike. The largest BA is zero; after that, the larger the number, the smaller the diameter.

The side casings are missing (bathtub)

When you look at photos. and pictures of 1965 3TA, particularly originals, you should see they were fitted originally with what is known as the smaller "bikini" fairing below the seat on each side, the bikini does not cover the rear wheel, as the "bathtub" did. Your photos. show your bike has the rear parts of the bikini under the rear of the seat.

Nevertheless, you might not wish to fit the bikini either; if you post a photo. of the frame under the seat, I can tell whether it has the brackets to mount the sidepanel on the left that matches the oil tank on the right; Triumph fitted the sidepanel to contemporary T100 versions.

Btw, if you did not know already, your photo. View attachment 803114 shows your bike has a QD (Quickly Detachable) rear wheel - the wheel can be removed without disturbing either chain or brake on the other side. If the splines (that join the wheel hub to the brake/sprocket) are not worn, the wheel is very useful and desirable.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

 

[xav3ta]

Thank you for your welcome and for this very useful information. It is true that the keys are marked with a w and that commercially the sellers call it withworth. I understand that it is an error or a "shortcut"!

Here are the keys I use, and the 2 special extractors I bought.
I also note the keys really used each time I unscrew a bolt!

I have the workshop book and parts list that you indicate, it's a shame for me that nothing exists in French, but it will improve my English!

The left side of the frame is like that,

 

[xav3ta]

Engine disassembly begins with the clutch side. As the pistons are seized in the cylinders, this facilitates the unlocking of the various nuts!

The alternator and clutch nuts are really jammed!

Here is the clutch .

The first problem encountered is on a screw in the bottom plate, the head of which is damaged. I don't want to damage everything with a small chisel, so I drill in the center and I tap.
With a small screw and a lock nut I manage to unscrew the screw from the housing.

The second problem is to remove the key from the alternator. Impossible ! I try with a small screwdriver to make it go up a little, then go down by typing with a jet of bronze in front and behind, really impossible. I may be doing something stupid, but at the moment I don't know what else to do, so I cut it with a grinding wheel (Dremel). I slip a little and bite a little on the crankshaft but nothing too serious. Anyway it's done. you will have to redo the keyway...

The clutch clutch is easily extracted,

then I discover the pinion whose nut is unscrewed by hand! (so much for me because I didn't have the key!) and the brake washer is missing.

Of course the pinion is dead !

 

[xav3ta]

Let's look on the right side now!

The motor with its pistons locked, allows you to unscrew the various nuts without having to hold the shafts! For the camshafts (left-hand thread) I use the special tool.

Before mounting the extractor, I place the small sleeve that protects the shaft, and for the crankshaft I put a bal

I have a little trouble getting the gearbox out, but with a few blows of the mallet it finally comes out.

I also find the cause of the blocking of the gearbox, one of the forks was seized on its shaft.

 

[StuartMac]

Hi,

It is true that the keys are marked with a w and that commercially the sellers call it withworth. I understand that it is an error or a "shortcut"!

Not really an error, just not very helpful on your bike.

"Whitworth" refers to Joseph Whitworth, who laid out the first threadform standard in 1841. He also standardised a hexagonal Across Flats measurement for each thread major diameter (male thread outside diameter); however, the tools are marked with the thread major diameter, not the hexagonal Across Flats measurement as, say, metric tools.

If Whitworth threads have a problem, it is the coarse threads loosen easily when vibrated. Originally British Standard Fine thread, with a higher tpi (threads per inch/turns per inch), was the response and its hexagons are the same as Whitworth because the tools to fit were in widespread use around the world. However, by the time BSF was introduced, metallurgy had improved and each standard thread major diameter had a hexagon one standard size smaller than the same Whitworth diameter - for example, a 1/4-inch Whitworth thread has the same hexagon as a 5/16-inch BSF thread, a 5/16-inch Whitworth thread has the same hexagon as a 3/8-inch BSF thread, etc. Then, when CEI thread was adopted as another British Standard, the hexagon AF were the same as BSF ... There is also a subsequent adapted Whitworth British Standard that uses the smaller hexagon AF and, as old vehicle restorers are now the largest group in the world of buyers of any new Whitworth-thread fasteners, any new are made with the smaller British Standard hexagon AF for each thread major diameter.

So specifically Whitworth inch markings on tools do not relate to any dimension on any fastener on your bike.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

 

[xav3ta]

Ok so it's because the withwoth hexagons are the same as the BSFs that I can use the keys marked w!
but I mustn't confuse, I don't have screws withworth but BSF that's it.
In any case I confirm that the keys marked w are fine, I also note all those that I use (sorry in French!)

Exemple 5/16 w => boulons cache culbuteurs = cylinder head bolt


I really need help when I have to buy the thread inserts to repair the 2 or 3 damaged threads. I'll ask the question when I get there!

 

[StuartMac]

Hi,

Unfortunately, I could not read most of your photos. as they open quite small and I could not enlarge them.

However, I noticed "philps" (Phillips?) on the left-hand page of your top photo. - if you mean for the cross-head screws on, say, the engine primary cover, timing cover, gearbox cover, no, they are Pozidrive, Phillips drivers do not fit properly, regrettably you will damage the screw heads with Phillips drivers.

Exemple 5/16 w => boulons cache culbuteurs = cylinder head bolt

The cylinder bolts threads are 3/8-inch diameter Cycle thread, 5/16-inch Whitworth hexagon is the same as 3/8-inch British Standard hexagon.

need help when I have to buy the thread inserts to repair the 2 or 3 damaged threads. I'll ask the question when I get there

Hope this helps.

Regards,

 

[xav3ta]

Hello, thank's for your comment , it help me to understand , as it is my firts old Triumph !

Here are the larger images, when I'm done I'll do a summary.

[A] PetrolTap : 7/16w

For the cruciforms I confirm that I used a philips n° 3 (as I found in the docs) and really it does not seem to me that it is Posidriv, on the imprint there are not the four large like the Phillips plus four small offset by 45°.
In any case I was able to disassemble with the philips 3 without damaging anything.



in Haynes workshop manual :

in part list n° 6 :

 

[StuartMac]

Hi,

the larger images

Thank you.

the cruciforms

I am surprised if they are Phillips - past Forum posts identified that Triumph changed from slotted screw heads to cruciform during 1957, these were Phillips originally. Pozidriv was patented in 1962 as an improvement to Phillips (allowing greater torque before "cam out", or less likelihood of "cam out" for the same torque); as far as I knew, Triumph changed to Pozidriv shortly afterwards. In my experience, regrettably neither all details in the Triumph parts books nor Haynes manuals are always correct (I found so many things wrong in Haynes manuals I have not used them for many, many years); if you have some Pozidriv drivers of different sizes, it might be wise to confirm by checking them in some of the screw heads?

Hth.

Regards,

 

[xav3ta]

I would put a photo of the Phillips screws on occasion;

Oil pump is easy to extrac,

Top of engine...

ANd valves ( i think it will be necessary to change them)...

After more than 4 weeks with penetrating oil and regular heating, it's time to take out the pistons.

I'm going to try gently, with 2 round aluminum (a little too small but I'm not going to force...) and a plate at the level of the cylinder head gasket.

With two 12 mm bolts I tighten gently trying to be very rough and identical on the right and on the left. proof that I do not force, I manage to turn a key in each hand!

Little by little the pistons come out, I did well to wait and let the penetrating oil act for several weeks.

Then i extract pistons gudgeons

The cylinders are rusty

And i think i have to rebore...

Without too much calculation, the maximum play indicated in the Triumph docs is 0.13 mm ... there taking the middle of the piston (side h2 according to axis A and mid cylinder (h2) I have rather 0.42 and .19 and anyway it seems to me that the condition of the shirts alone is worth a rebore...

I also quickly looked at the clearance with the cut with the 1st segment... it is almost 2 mm... (given Triumph maxi 0.2 on the compression segment...!)


My pistons are marked 0.01, so according to what I have read they would already be in the first ratings?

there are still possible reborings 0.020 in and 0.040 in and 0.060 in

it therefore seems to me that it is necessary to go to 0.020 in, i.e. a rebore to 58.758 if I am not mistaken...

But if cylinder are too much used , i need to rebore to +0.040 . Did i need to buy piston before and then give them to
give them to the mechanic so that they can check the "play" (sorry not the good word I.., i meen distance between piston and cylinder..) when reaming it.

 

[xav3ta]

Hello, new episode!

All the parts have been cleaned and stripped, we will have to wait for the temperature to rise a little to paint. In the meantime I pass the phosphating primer to avoid rust.


Before...

During...

After !

I then blew the pieces, then went through the dishwasher (Only do that when you are alone at home !!!) and finally reblown.

Of course I had left the old bearings in place and put caps to protect the sensitive areas.

After cleaning a small crack appears on the housing on the clutch side, for more security I will have a spot welded on the back of the housing.

 

[xav3ta]

Extracting the swingarm axle is quite an adventure!

At first it seemed easy, a threaded rod, a tube and... nothing!

Standing on the key, nothing moves, I heat, I sprinkle with penetrating oil every day, I heat up, nothing nada! The axle is completely seized.

I gave up for a while, and then when I got back from airbrushing, I tried something else.

For two days, I poured vinegar into the axle (closing one end) telling myself that it should dissolve the rust in the central part (because the swingarm is not blocked it oscillates normally except that he has a lot of play laterally.

Then I heated again and tried again with my threaded rod of 14 in the center,... failure!

The night brings advice, I'll try something else!

I'm going to get a press!

Two 80 wide U profiles, two 14 threaded rods, a 5T hydraulic jack, and a tip to push, which enters the tube on 10 mm to have a guide and prevent it from slipping.

I heat up, and I pump! I need a one meter lever on the crick, I'm really afraid that everything will burst! so I put on my full-face helmet to continue!

Couldn't press harder on the crick. I heat it up and let it press for an hour or two...

On my return I give a few hammer blows to the top of my press (action - reaction!) then I release everything, and I put some penetrating oil back on.

The next day I start again, I put the crick back on and forward and .... crack! damn it came!

Then I just have to do 3 axes of thrusts of different lengths until the total exit! Damn not easy this one!

From bottom to top, the successive axes of thrust

The U of 80 folded, testifies to the effort...

And here is the axis, well puffed up with rust

New parts are here i think

https://draganfly.co.uk/shop/98414/swin ... 7/#82-4195

https://draganfly.co.uk/shop/78341/swin ... h/#82-4076
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