Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums banner

41 - 60 of 68 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,458 Posts
I've done quite a few sets of TB's already with great results.
My 1050 Sprint got a bit more work than that but gained about 14% from stock. The Daytona is getting the treatment now and looking forward to some imprvements there. I'm also degreeing the cams.
Imagine turboing that!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,458 Posts
Have a look here:


http://www.triumphrat.net/sprint-forum/222729-my-extended-sprint-mod-happy-ending.html


RWHP on dyno was about 125+. Use your own drivetrain loss % but not a bad improvement from 123 crank HP.
I'm hoping for similar improvements on the Daytona but I won't be dynotuning, cost is becoming prohibitive, I'll be tuning with an Innovate LM2 + datalogger.


I have heaps more pics not published if you want.


https://www.triumphtorque.com/messageboard/thread/107648-1050-Throttle-body-work-results.aspx


This is the original thread posted by Power-Tripp (now retired) who blazed the trail for all of us.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
289 Posts
1. Do you think the intercooler is necessary for the small amount of boost that you are running?

2. I'm also a little confused with all the oil lines. Can you go into a bit more detail on how you converted it from water to oil cooled? Are you sending oil from the cold side of the oil cooler through what was the water feed? Then where does it go?

3. How are you getting the wg to open at such low psi? I didn't think you could make it open at less than spring pressure, and I doubt it's a 3psi/0.25 bar spring in there.

4. Lastly, what is this 4 bar pressure regulator that you found?

I'm interested in turbocharging my speed triple if I can get it to work well enough on the stock ecu. I saw someone on youtube was able to use 440lb injectors. I'm not sure whether they fit the stock rail though.

Thanks for any insight
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
75 Posts
Discussion Starter #45 (Edited)
1. I personally like the idea of having the coldest air available. The tuning of the ignition map as function of IAT becomes a lot less critical when you don't have 100dgC inlet temperatures. I don't have the budget to tune for day's at the Dyno so the addition of the IC simply made life easier.

The boost level is now ramped from 0.3bar @ 4500rpm up to 0.7bar @ 8000rpm measured at the plenum. Even with the intercooler an increase from 28-40dgC was present at the dyno with a 6-7s full throttle pull.

The Smart intercooler itself may be a bit restrictive, resulting in higher exhaust backpressure as the compressor needs more power from the turbine to compensate for the pressure drop. I'm planning to measure the pressure drop & exhaust backpressure in the upcomming months.

2. Engine OUT --> Turbo cooling (water cooling part) --> Oil cooler --> T-piece* --> Engine IN.

*T-piece --> restrictor --> Turbo lubrication --> Engine sump (big hose)

3. According to Mitsubishi it's a 0.35bar WG. I reduced the preload a bit with the adjustment threaded rod. The 0.2bar @ redline is measured @ plenum so if the IC has a 0.1bar pressure drop the turbo still makes 0.3bar.

4. Aliexpress: 4bar fuel pressure regulator Audi

I think you mean 44lb/hr, thats aprox 480cc/min. In my opinion a bit small. My Bosch EV14 0280158117 550cc/min injectors are at 75% duty cycle with AFR11.8 @ peak power (140rwhp). They can be sourced new & original with adapters for approx 140e inc shipping
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
289 Posts
Wow, thanks for the reply!

yes I meant 44lb :) 440 lb would be a fire house.

1. What adapters are needed for the 550cc? Those would be plenty for me. I am new to port injection fueling. My experience has been on a direct injected car utilizing a stock fuel system.

2. That fuel pressure regulator is a direct plug and play from the original?

Do you think one could get around 120-130 whp working with just the stock ecu? Or you think a standalone is required to get spool up fueling correct?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
75 Posts
Discussion Starter #47 (Edited)
1. For the EV14 injectors in a 955i engine I needed:
- EV6 to EV1 adapters (connector)
- Top hats 14.5mm O-ring (increasing length injector to 60mm o-ring to o-ring)

I bought mine at seller below. But not the 60lb/hr but the 52lb/hr (pn: 0280158117).

https://www.ebay.nl/itm/311709286954?ul_noapp=true

Please check for your own 1050 engine, they have different injectors than the 955i!


2. For the 955i it is plug and play. Just remove the circlip and pull with a pair of pliers (drain tank ofcourse)

3. Yes, should be possible. Spooling will be a bit rich if there is no boost measurement but your engine will survive. You temporary will have a bit less NA power due to the incorrect AFR but that's only 0.4-1.0seconds (depending on RPM). It will save you 300+euro on a cheap ECU, or a 1000+ on a main brand ECU.

120-130whp is no problem as the 1050 engine already makes >[email protected] more than my 1st gen 955i. Some people already make 120whp NA with 1050 and some porting (see couple post above), but they don't reach the [email protected]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
289 Posts
I have a '99 955, so no worries there. Same as your sprint :)

I'm dumbfounded how clean your build came out, awesome awesome job.

I'm not concerned with going a bit rich for a second as long as it doesn't fall on it's face and never recover.

Do you remember how long the top hat extender was? I'd be inclined to use the exact injectors and top hats you did since you proved they will work. Did you just make a bung on the airbox for the fuel pressure regulator hose to connect to?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
75 Posts
Discussion Starter #49
Most EV14's are 48mm o-ring distance, you need approx 60-63mm for the 955i engine.

If you try to run AFR12 with 0.4bar boost, you will run theoretically AFR8 for a brief second before boost comes in. In reality this is less as the 955i ECU barely has any acceleration enrichment(not tun-able with TuneECU) and tends to go a bit lean momentarily when you suddenly open the throttle. Response felt acceptable to me when I was running the stock ECU.

In the end I chose the standalone route because I wanted safety: Closeloop wideband lambda control, Knock sensing, IAT ignition retard, Boost control & WOT time limits, data logging...


The FPR is connected to my throttle bodies via a small vacuum reservoir. You want to keep the pressure difference over the injector constant so theoretically you are best of taking the pressure after the throttles.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
75 Posts
Discussion Starter #50
Recently I spend some time tuning my bike at the PSTuning dyno. I first tuned it with the wastegate completely open (0.05bar boost @ redline) and it made 76Nm & 86whp. Quite low compared to the "Turbo Connection" measurement (88Nm & 98bhp). I tried adding 1, 2, 4, and 6dg of ignition advance without any real effect.

At 0.3bar of boost the bike made 109Nm & 113whp without much effort. Torque fell off quickly after 5500rpm.

At 0.55bar the torque was much improved, but still dropped off too quickly after 7500rpm to make a nice HP number, so the boost was increased to 0.7bar from 8000rpm up. I ended up with 125Nm & 140whp, still 15Nm & 15whp shy of the "Turbo Connection" results. I'm not completely sure why the numbers are lower than expected, but on the road it doesn't matter that much.

I gained 40+Nm & 40+whp compared to my stock bike, so it feels seriously quick :) The 1050 10 plate clutch with stiffer springs can just about handle the torque and the bike wheelies in 2nd without any effort. Reliability has been great the past 3000km (1100 in Germany in one weekend).

I'm planning to investigate the exhaust backpressure (is muffler restrictive?) the IC pressure drop (it's a unit designed for a 800cc Smart Diesel engine) and the boost ignition retard table. If any problems can be fixed I'll visit the dyno shop again for better forum bragging rights ;)





green: no boost, red: 0.3bar boost, purple: 0.3-0.7bar boost (ramped)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,458 Posts
This is awesome!
I finally finished the Daytona and have been riding it a bit. I'm very pleased with the results. It still needs to be tuned but so far it seems to make more power everywhere.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Really good post, well done with the commitment and updates. You're an inspiration.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
75 Posts
Discussion Starter #53
@sussurf, i'm really interested to see the dyno figures for your bike! I wouldn't be surprised if yours now makes similar whp figures as mine simply because the ported head and intake flow so much better than the GEN1 955i engines. The additional 95cc will help a bit as well I suppose (probably mainly for the torque figure @ midrange)

@kraM, thank you :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
75 Posts
Discussion Starter #54
The exhaust backpressure sensor has been added today. It's welded to the #3 cylinder header pipe as that one was the most accessible without taking the bike apart.

It's connected to a freescale MPX4250 pressure sensor which can measure between 20 and 250kPa absolute pressure (1.5bar above ambient pressure)





Unfortunately the range of the sensor is insufficient. At 8500rpm & 0.6bar boost the sensor get maxed out at 1.44bar. At this point the turbo is running a boost-to-backpressure ratio of 2.33 which isn't great. Boost is measured in the plenum so the results are affected by IC & filter pressure drop as well.

I'll have to do some more measurements to determine why the exhaust backpressure is a bit on the high side.

2nd gear pull, exhaust pressure sensor could use a bit of filtering (hardware):
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,458 Posts
@sussurf, i'm really interested to see the dyno figures for your bike! I wouldn't be surprised if yours now makes similar whp figures as mine simply because the ported head and intake flow so much better than the GEN1 955i engines. The additional 95cc will help a bit as well I suppose (probably mainly for the torque figure @ midrange)

@kraM, thank you :)
Just to clear things up, my Daytona is a 955 and hasn't been dyno tuned yet.
The Sprint is a 1050 and that bike was finished back in 2012. It makes just under 126RWHP with a~80ft.lbs of torque.
I'm pretty sure the Daytona will make more power, but not torque.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
75 Posts
Discussion Starter #56 (Edited)
Ok, now I understand. It's very interesting that you have both bikes, similar engine design but differences in cam, stroke, displacement and redline.

It reminds me a bit of an episode of the youtube/motortrend show "Engine Masters". There is an episode where they run a 350ci and the 383ci (stroker, same bore size) with the exact same camshaft, head, intake and header. Both engines make similar power figures, but at a different rpm indicating that the airflow of intake/head/cam/header combination is determining the max power. Torque is really different of course for both engines.

The main difference between the Daytona and the Sprint955/1050 is the cam right? (and the rods/pistons capable of running the increased engine RPM)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
75 Posts
Discussion Starter #57 (Edited)
I added a blow off valve to the bike. Unfortunately it doesn't work properly as the spring is too stiff for the bike (IBT's generally have poor vacuum performance). The spring has already been shortened to work under light vacuum as well.

At this moment the vacuum from 3 cilinders are merged in 1 small container via 0.4mm orifices. I installed these orifices to create a smooth vacuum signal for the fuel pressure regulator, and prevent cross talk between the throttle bodies. Unfortunately these 0.4mm orifices can't sustain sufficient flow to open the BOV in time. I'll change them in the upcoming day's so the BOV can be functional.








*Transparent hoses have been replaced and connected to vacuum resevoir
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
75 Posts
Discussion Starter #58 (Edited)
The blowoff valve works OK now. Bigger hoses, restrictions, couplers and a reduction in spring preload in the BOV was the trick :)

I also added another pressure sensor to investigate the high eMAP/MAP ratio (exhaust backpressure / boost). Previously I've measured 1.44bar eMAP and 0.6bar MAP @ 8400rpm, with the new sensor I was able to measure it for the full rev range:

@9400rpm:
- 0.68bar boost @ Manifold
- 1.05bar boost @ turbo
- 1.59bar backpressure @ turbo

So the turbo is working fine, a ratio of 1.5 between eMAP and boost is OK for a 1990's turbo. The true "problem" is the pressure drop over the intercooler & pipes. 0.37bar (5psi!) pressure drop @ redline is a lot..

Apparently an Intercooler designed for a 600cc 61hp smart 3cilinder engine is not the most optimal choise for a 140+whp turbo bike :grin2:. It cools very good though. Maybe a nice project for the winter: build a new, single pass IC from scratch.

"AC Pressure" = pressure @ turbo, boost is a bit erratic during this run as the TPS sensor jumped between 99 and 100% resulting in changing boost targets. This has been fixed already
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,183 Posts
Do you think your pressure drop bbn is just heat? I wonder if a trick I use to deploy on my high boost Volvo would lend itself here. I couldn't fit an efficient enough IC, so I went with a methanol injection system which would in effect cool the charged air by about 30C. It reduced my pressure drop by almost 80%.

Of course, where to fit a fluid bottle could prove an issue but it wouldn't need to be very big if you set it to inject only over 1bar
 
41 - 60 of 68 Posts
Top