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Discussion Starter #1
Hi guys, a few Tuneecu mapping questions regarding my Triumph Daytona 955i from 2000 (sagem ECU WITHOUT Lambda-sensor)

At the Tuneecu-forum and facebook no-one replied, it appears on this forum has a bit more knowledge and enthousiast available :)


1) I understand the F-map, but can someone tell me how the AF1 and AF2 map work? do they apply a correction to the F-map?

Or is this NOT applicable to my bike since it does not have an O2-sensor or MAF-sensor (mass-air-flow)?
I mean how does it know when I run an AFR of 12 for example? I would assume a calculation with only air temp/pressure adjustments to the theoretical air "usage" of the engine would not be precise enough?


2) How is the "injector flow rate" (285.8 in my case) determined? is this a standard amount for a model?

3) How do the "long term correction injection" and "CO" value apply to the F-map?

4) Is it correct that on the android version you dont see the life indication of where you are in the F-map vs TPS while you do on the laptop?

5) Does anyone have a tune map other than map 10073 that would apply well for me? or suggestions on how to improve the 10073 map?

6) I believe adaptation is not in place for my bike? only a simple TPS reset applies?






Many thanks for the help,

Nick
 

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Hi mate, I don't have all the answers but here's some:

1) I don't understand how the F table and AF tables interact tbh, but they are applicable to your bike. Instead of the ECU using a lambda sensor to read the air/fuel ratio, it calculates the amount of air going into a cylinder using pressure, temperature and probably some stored values. It then injects the amount of fuel required to provide the A/F ratio in the given cell based on what it thinks the amount of air is.

2) This is just the manufacturing spec flow rate for the injectors, it allows the ECU to work out how long it needs to hold an injector open to deliver a given amount of fuel. Don't change it unless you change the injectors to another type.

6) Adaptations don't apply to your bike, it doesn't have a lambda sensor to be able to measure the exhaust and make adaptations. "Reset TPS" is pretty much the only "adaptation" you can do on this gen of bike.

Hopefully that's right, and hopefully someone can help on the rest of the questions :)
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Many thanks for the clear reply Rampant!

I've also just found this topic which confirms what you are saying:
https://www.triumphrat.net/ecm-and-fi-tuning-help-tips-and-tricks/167015-tune-ecu-for-beginner-2.html

Without a wide band O2 sensor and logging ability, you will have a very difficult time getting everything right.

Any throttle openings under load or fast changes in throttle will be in open loop mode, meaning the af/ratio isn't necessarilly what your real AF ratio actually is. What the engine is doing is taking the value in the fuel map table for that RPM and throttle opening and applying the amount of fuel to equal the ratio in the AF/table. Its all math at this point, it isnt actually sampling any air in the engine to adjust the ratio.

The numbers in the fuel table refer to the amount of air in the cylinder at that point in the map under those conditions per second, the ECU then adds fuel to get the ratio in the other table from the number 12.8 - 15.0 or whatever.

The short answer is, you can adjust either of these tables, the fuel table or the AF table to make your bike run richer or leaner at different rpm's and throttle openings, its all just math, unless youa re in closed loop mode, which is only at idle and at points in nyour graph where the af value is 14.5-14.7
In this topic they also refer to a Tuneboy manual which apparently explains how to play around with the tuning and how the F map and AF map work together.
The link for the manual doesnt work anymore and I can't find it online, does anyone still have this?
So still also looking for help with the other questions :)

Also I played around with the Tuneboy software for a bit because it has a nicer 3D graphic map viewer;
I as very surprised by the big difference between the maps 10072 (High Triumph Racing exhaust) and 10073 (Low Triumph racing exhaust).
Take a look at the attachments ;)

So I'm not sure now how I would improve the F map just on logic without doing any O2 measurements... any suggestions?
 

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Instead of the ECU using a lambda sensor to read the air/fuel ratio, it calculates the amount of air going into a cylinder using pressure, temperature and probably some stored values. It then injects the amount of fuel required to provide the A/F ratio in the given cell based on what it thinks the amount of air is.
Ok so I've been doing some of my own research and I think I was slightly wrong here. This is my understanding of Triumph Sagem ECUs to date:

The F table is a measure of how much air (mass in mg) is going into 1 cylinder on 1 intake stroke.

The AF tables tell the ECU the desired/target air/fuel ratio for a given operation condition (RPM and Throttle Position). I believe that the AF1 table is for most operating conditions and AF2 is for wide open throttle.

The ECU refers to the F table for how much air is going into a cylinder for the measured throttle position and RPM, then trims the air mass value to take into account things like ambient air pressure and temperature. It then refers to the appropriate cell on one of the AF tables to work out how much fuel is required, and thus the injector opening time.

If you want to change your fuelling you can change either the F or AF tables, but they can cancel each other out if you do both. In an ideal world the F tables accurately match the intake mass for all the operating conditions, then all you need to do is adjust the desired air/fuel ratios in the AF tables, and potentially adjust the ignition timing to suit.

I haven’t used the TuneBoy software so can’t speak for that or the manual :(

You should not adjust your fuelling without a wideband lambda sensor in the exhaust to give you feedback. If you are not careful when adjusting the fuelling blind you could run too lean and burn a hole in one of your pistons. You can go too rich as well, but you'd have to run it stupidly rich to damage the engine and it will run really poorly before that point. Either invest in a wideband lambda sensor setup so you can record your lambda against throttle position and RPM and make your own adjustments, or take it to a dyno.

I think I can answer more of your original questions now:
3) I believe “long term correction” is the Sagem ECU term for “adaptations” for later 955i bikes fitted with Lambda sensors, if this is correct then it shouldn’t apply to your bike. The CO value adjusts your idle fuelling to get the air/fuel ratio right at idle. It purports to be the amount of Carbon Monoxide (CO) in the exhaust but as there is no Lambda sensor it’s just an arbitrary value. You need an exhaust gas analyser to set this correctly, the desired figure I’ve seen quoted is normally 3% CO in the exhaust.

4) I don’t have a laptop to test the Windows version of TuneECU but I’m pretty sure it shows you live which cell the engine is operating in. I hooked up my phone to my bike and I can confirm the Android version of TuneECU doesn’t show which cell the engine is operating in.

5) I can’t recommend you a tune but have a look on the TuneECU website, there are all the manufacturer maps and some customs ones as well, read the notes and see which ones seem to fit how your bike is set up (air filter, exhaust etc) and give them a go. Make sure you save a copy of the current map somewhere before you start loading new maps, and reset your throttle position sensor after loading a new map.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Many thanks again for the thorough reply Rampant :)

One more question regarding the Tuneecu software, for me maximum TPS value is 78% also under load.
I saw something written about this in a manual but don't know if it's also normal under load, can you please confirm?

I've also done some more research and found the old Tuneboy manual which explains the tuning very well and confirms what you are saying, I've uploaded it with this message.

I've bought a Zeitronix ZT-2 AFR wideband logger to get some indications if the F-table is correct about the amount of theoretical air in the cylinders;)
Will report back.

To make this happen I'm gonna need the following input signals for the datalogger:
1) TPS 0 - 5 Volt input
2) Tachometer 0-5V, 0-12V, square wave, 0 -18000 RPM
Hoping someone can advice me where to easily tap into these signals.
I've attached the wiring diagram and key.

1) The TPS potentiometer (41) on the right of the diagram has the Green/Yellow signalwire going to the ECU, is this already a 0 - 5 Volt signal or is there an output from the ECU somewhere where I can pick it up with a lustre terminal connection?
For example near the ODB connector?
Because the TPS also shows in the TuneEcu app.

2) The Tachometer (8) on the left of the diagram has the Red signalwire.
What kind of signal is this and can I use it? Does it need a resistor added? (I believe I needed a 20K Ohm potentiometer with my Honda CBR900 1995 in past)
Does a potentiometer work the same as a resistor with the same value?

Suggestions about connectors or locations to pickup these signals are very welcome so I don't unnecessarily butcher my wire loom :)
 

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The TPS reading not going to 100% is normal, mine tops out at 73% for wide open throttle. It's because the TPS still has more travel available even though the throttles are fully open.

Can't help on the other questions, sorry
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
The TPS reading not going to 100% is normal, mine tops out at 73% for wide open throttle. It's because the TPS still has more travel available even though the throttles are fully open.

Can't help on the other questions, sorry
Jep, I figured.
I wonder how they take this into account with the factory fuel/ignition mapping (10071/72/73) since this means your whole mapping is basically shifted... :confused:
Would kinda mean you would have to adjust everything accordingly?!? anyone?
Curious if everyone is around 70-80% TPS max.

I promised an update, so:
I've done some datalogging with TuneEcu to get a view of engine load and therefore what to do with the AF2 map.
https://cdn3.imggmi.com/uploads/2019/8/22/6e541b4a83302b3900d12ba2f7395b3e-full.jpg


Using this info and some logic thinkin (and comparing some data of other available fuel/ignition maps) I made a map which is allready a big improvement (see attachment)
It's still work in progress though.


Also welded a bung in my exhaust (comment on welding not allowed since it was done lefthanded while, without space while blinded by a ****ty cheap helmet hahaha)
Will make a map with AF1 & AF2 allways on 13 AFR and do some datalogging on the road with different trottlepositions with my Lamda datalogger to see how correct the F-map actually is.



For that though I am gonna need help with the following question still though, because I'm really not gonna take of the tank of again...:nah

Many thanks again for the thorough reply Rampant :)
To make this happen I'm gonna need the following input signals for the datalogger:
1) TPS 0 - 5 Volt input
2) Tachometer 0-5V, 0-12V, square wave, 0 -18000 RPM
Hoping someone can advice me where to easily tap into these signals.
I've attached the wiring diagram and key.

1) The TPS potentiometer (41) on the right of the diagram has the Green/Yellow signalwire going to the ECU, is this already a 0 - 5 Volt signal or is there an output from the ECU somewhere where I can pick it up with a lustre terminal connection?

2) The Tachometer (8) on the left of the diagram has the Red signalwire.
What kind of signal is this and can I use it? Does it need a resistor added? (I believe I needed a 20K Ohm potentiometer with my Honda CBR900 1995 in past)
Does a potentiometer work the same as a resistor with the same value?

Suggestions about connectors or locations to pickup these signals are very welcome so I don't unnecessarily butcher my wire loom :)
 

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Your welding looks ok to me.


The TPS max. @ 78% is a measurement of the % of available voltage to the TPS to open the throttle butterflies fully.
Hope that makes sense.
 

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This is a guess but I imagine that the ECU knows how much movement a change in output from the TPS equates to, and it knows how much movement the throttle butterflies have from closed to open. Once you set the zero point (TPS reset) it can count off from there so it knows that the TPS reading ~73% equates to a fully open throttle.
 
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