Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums banner

1 - 12 of 12 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I have a 2002 TT600 with 64000km, here's the problem, then the history. This one's a long one so get a cup of coffee ready...

The bike is hard to start cold. I have to turn the key about three times to prime before I crank it to get the thing going when cold. Hot, no dramas although I think the performance of the bike is not what it has been.

I bought the bike in March this year. The stator had been rewound in October 07. In August this year, I had to get it rewound again after only about 3000km! It looked similar to the one raceyz125 pulled out of his D650 in this thread:
http://www.triumphrat.net/triumph-supersports/90935-d650-stator-bad.html

Grrrrr. I took it out and got it done by a armature specialist recommended to me by an auto-elec mate. Everything has gone fine up untill a couple of weeks ago when the starting problem appeared. I didn't have the time to get it done then so have ridden it like that for 3 weeks.

When I installed the stator in August, I was getting about 21-23VAC at idle and about 70VAC at 5k RPM. These measurements were made on a cheap but reliable multimeter which would be giving a "poor man's" RMS value. At the time I also checked the R/R as recommended by DEcosse and found no shorts etc..

I took the bike into the stealer today thinking it'd need timing or at worst a fuel pump. I hadn't thought to check the charging. They told me that "the stator is going to ground".

They wouldn't elaborate and told me I needed the stator rewouond AGAIN (by their guy of course for big bucks), so I went for another opinion. Went to the bloke who'd rewound it and checked the voltage at the batt. 12.3 idle and 13.7 revving. Sort of ok I guess but not 14ish as I'd expect. He got on the phone and his Triumph bloke told me to go to the other Triumph dealer in town and get the tune checked. "That'll be the problem." He was adament that he'd wound it right and that it should be "going to ground".

So off I went and I got them to check the tune, just in case there was some gremlin there, but it was the right tune. They told me that TT's don't like to start and usually are set rich to do so. I can't remember exactly what he said about my bike's something being set to 14% at idle, but he said that he's seen them all the way up to 30%. I take it that it was idle mixture???

I then went for home to check the readings myself. I'd noted that the wires to the regulator have seen better days (but I've seen worse wires conducting fine) and I would look to replace them tonight. On the way, the bike stalled when the fan came on... Interesting.

Pulled the seat at home and here are my readings over the battery:

Bike off - 12.12VDC
Ignition on - 12.06VDC
Ign on, fuel pump priming -11.96VDC
Ignition on, light on - 11.8VDC
Bike running idle - light off - 12.16VDC
Bike running idle - light on - 11.87VDC
Idle, lights, indicator, brake light, fan on- 11.54VDC
Bike off, back to 12.05VDC and climbing for 12.15VDC

This tells me there's a charging problem and is why the thing is running like sh*t. There's no way its been that low for the last few weeks or I would have had a flat battery somewhere inconvenient...

I pulled out the stator wires and unloaded I am getting the requisite 21VAC at idle and 50VAC at 4k. There is a small resistance between the windings (about 1.6R) but no resistance to ground. When I was talking to the armature bloke, he said that's how they're wound but DEcosse says they're not. They should be open to ground. This makes sense to me 'cause they weren't all open to ground when I pulled the fried one - only the fried winding was.

I've done the same check on the R/R as DEcosse recommended and I've got no shorts, diodes are working fine but something a little different. An open circuit (My multimeter measures up to 2MOhms)between the black and yellow wires and about 1.5MOhms between the red and yellow.

For the record, the wires between the R/R input plug and stator plug only measure 0.01R, so they're fine.

So can anyone enlighten me as to what the heck is going on here? I'm thinking I need to get the stator rewound the right way and slap a new rectifier on to boot. This is going to be an expensive excersise so I'm open to other ideas.

Please help or I'm going to have to get into my car to get around and we all don't want that, right?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
38 Posts
I can sympathise with you.

Here's a pic of my stator I took last night - explains the discharging battery, lumpy running, even crapper-than-usual mpg, flickering headlight and flickering digital dash display.



Hope you get it sorted.

I still need to check the reg/rectifer to see if that's junk. Pattern stator/generators are about £75 and reg/rectifers about £85 in the UK.

Cheers

Andy
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,473 Posts
The R/R is probably the place to start. We seem to be seeing a whole lot of them going bad these days. I wonder if it's some kind of time release gremlin.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Well I think i'm goint to bite the bullet and get nasty with the charging system. I'll get old mate who wound the stator to wind it insulated from ground, replace all the wiring with big fat stuff and get an aftermarket r/r. Any ideas who does the best one? Ricks, electrex world uk, sprint manufacturing, etc???

Any info would be most appreciated as the poor old Aussie dollar doesn't go that far these days...
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
21,183 Posts
....
I took the bike into the stealer ... They told me that "the stator is going to ground".

....his Triumph bloke told me to go to the other Triumph dealer in town and get the tune checked. "That'll be the problem." He was adament that he'd wound it right and that it should be "going to ground".

.... On the way, the bike stalled when the fan came on... Interesting.

Pulled the seat at home and here are my readings over the battery:

Bike off - 12.12VDC
Ignition on - 12.06VDC
Ign on, fuel pump priming -11.96VDC
Ignition on, light on - 11.8VDC
Bike running idle - light off - 12.16VDC
Bike running idle - light on - 11.87VDC
Idle, lights, indicator, brake light, fan on- 11.54VDC
Bike off, back to 12.05VDC and climbing for 12.15VDC

This tells me there's a charging problem and is why the thing is running like sh*t. There's no way its been that low for the last few weeks or I would have had a flat battery somewhere inconvenient...

I pulled out the stator wires and unloaded I am getting the requisite 21VAC at idle and 50VAC at 4k. There is a small resistance between the windings (about 1.6R) but no resistance to ground. When I was talking to the armature bloke, he said that's how they're wound but DEcosse says they're not. They should be open to ground. This makes sense to me 'cause they weren't all open to ground when I pulled the fried one - only the fried winding was.

I've done the same check on the R/R as DEcosse recommended and I've got no shorts, diodes are working fine but something a little different. An open circuit (My multimeter measures up to 2MOhms)between the black and yellow wires and about 1.5MOhms between the red and yellow.

For the record, the wires between the R/R input plug and stator plug only measure 0.01R, so they're fine....?

I'm a little confused here by some of the seemingly contradictory info
Let me see if I have this right:
Dealer says stator is shorted to ground
Armature guy confirms that is how it is SUPPOSED to be (NOT incidentally!!)
But you check and it is open?

Can you clarify for me if you think the stator is shorted to ground (or low resistance) when you check it yourself?

The readings you presented say there is absoutely a serious problem with your charging system

If you do (or even if you don't) find a short to ground from you stator, you need to pull the cover & look at it again. That's worth the 20 min investment in time & the 1/2 cup of oil you'll lose.

It's concerning that after re-winding it, it failed again - can you clarify wether that second failure was a bank of multiple coils, or a single isolated one?
Similarly report what you find when you look at this latest one again.

If an R/R is shorted, it will almost certainly take out the stator with it. It's possible that it's only breaking down under the higher input voltage than your meter is applying for resistance test.

The stator is certainly suspect, your re-wind just doesn't inspire me with confidence.
I would try to find a used R/R on the EBay or salvage market - I'll PM you with some suggestions - does NOT have to be from a TT


Edit - OK sorry - I misunderstood your "no resistance to ground" - I originally interepeted this as you meaning there was no measurable resistance to ground (i.e. open) but now I think your are saying there is zero (no) resitance to ground (i.e. short)!
LOL! Isn't English a great language?
So you are in fact saying that the stator is indeed shorted to ground and conforms with what your armature re-winder told you regarding his deliberate (???) practise and also what the dealer told you.
This is complete nonsense, there should be complete isolation between the windings and ground.

Conclusion: Stator definitely has to go! R/R may or not be suspect, but for peace of mind probably should be replaced for insurance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Thanks DEcosse!

Yeah, I meant that it was short to ground.

Your assertion was the conclusion I had come to over the last few days but I really wanted someone knowledgeable to back me up. I'll take this to the armature bloke and see if he'll rewind it for free.

I'm going to fully gut the charging system and start fresh. Hopefully that will be the end of the matter! I'd be happy enough to pay for a new aftermarket r/r to avoid the possibility of a second hand one that has suffered something from another suspect charging system.

Cheers.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
21,183 Posts
..I'd be happy enough to pay for a new aftermarket r/r to avoid the possibility of a second hand one that has suffered something from another suspect charging system.....
Stay away from Electrosport - they are quite suspect on quality from many reported sources. The one I steered you towards in PM should be good. Or you can buy one brand new if you prefer, similar pricing to an after-market anyway, not like Triumph OEM!
Yamaha Part number 1D7-81960-00-00 - they're $128 new from a discount online parts dealer over here in US. That is the best R/R available today - 50A unit and much more sophisticated MOSFET control than your std offering.

I'd recommend against having your stator rewound again - especially by someone who clearly does not know what the std configuration should be. I think there is significant risk of not getting adequate output. Go ahead & order a replacement one from Ricks - they ship overseas.
You should simply ask for your money back from the armature guy. The service he provided was totally incorrect so you should not be stuck having to have him rework it again as your only recourse.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Thanks DEcosse

Your comments have saved me heaps of time and energy. I will document and photograph the process for the rest of you out there suffering a similar fate, hope that will redistribute the good karma I just got.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
addendum

Success!!

Looking back now I didn't realise just how long this process has taken. I wish I'd just gone the final road I took to begin with, would have saved a lot of time.

I got the bike back on the road about 2 weeks ago and it now runs better than ever. The process has involved 2 poorly rewound stators, a new R/R, new battery and finally a new stator from Rick's. In the process with all the extra time I had off the road, I checked the whole loom for shorts, continuity, bad earth, high resistance, cracks, etc.

After the last post, I took the stator back to the rewinder and he said he'd rewind it again very carefully for nothing, so I waited. Refitted it and it was going to ground before I even got the bike out of the garage. Zero points for him!

So I then put in an order with Rick's and waited. Curse the snowstorm that hit NH on December 12 and then double curse the USPS for losing the first shipment!!! I had to wait 10 days before questioning the shipment then another few days for Rick's to open again to order another one.

But now it's all together. I have replaced all the wiring in the charging circuit with 8mm wires, soldered all connections, installed the new stator and I think the best part of the whole lot is a R/R I got from an '07 R1 as recommended by DEcosse. That is the call of the day!

Results? Without the headlight, its charging at 14.3V at idle and with, it stays regulated at about 14.2V throughout the range.

The bike performs better than it ever has! When I got it, it charged at about 13.7V and never any better. This thing hammers now.

If anyone has a R/R problem, don't replace it with a Triumph unit. Go for the late model R1 unit. The only thing is the different mounting holes. I have tie-wired it on securely at the moment and will be making a bracket to hold it more firmly in due course.

Stators? Don't go for anyone who says they'll have it back to you in a day... I think that's where the problem was...crappy powdercoating.

I can't find the photos I took at the moment but if anyone's looking to do the job, I'll gladly offer any assistance if you PM me.

For the record, the R/R-

1. see if you can get one with the connectors that came with it, Yamaha don't sell them as an aftermarket part and otherwise it's a matter of persuading another wrecker that they aren't that valuable (but you really want them!!) I just did it with spade connectors and a swathe of electrical tape. If you do it this way, put a short piece of dowel between the output wires when you wire it up to get a good tension on the tape without bending the wires too much.

2. The R/R input/output wires are arranged in two connectors as follows: ( I I I ) ( I I )
Y Y Y R B
The three are inputs from stator and two are earth and positive outputs. The positive is the innermost connection on the two wire plug.

I also have a copy of the '07 R1 workshop manual in PDF- it's a gem of a thing, heaps better than the Triumph attempts, with troubleshooting guides and direct page access. I wish Truimph would get with the program a bit there.

Hope that is of some use to those who have the perennial electrical problems of the TT
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
440 Posts
A quick ebay search shows R1s after 2001 having the pin layout you described. I'll keep this in mind because I have to diagnose if I have a charging issue or possibly just a dead battery.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,781 Posts
samurye,

glad to see your bike is all sorted out.

I checked in on your thread cuz I've noticed that the battery tender takes longer to bring the TT's battery up to a full charge than the sprint beside it, and the sprint has the smaaer battery.

The bike does all the same things yours did. The flashing gauges, pulsing headlight and all. So it looks like I'll be looking for some parts and was wondering where you got the r/r and stator from?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Sorry it's taken so long to get back...

Stator came from Ricks in NH and I got the R1 RR from a wrecker in Melbourne Australia.

Really don't have nice things to say about TT600 charging systems though.:Angry:
 
1 - 12 of 12 Posts
Top