[Trumpkin]

Have we mentioned this before?

https://ridelikeachampion.com/nick-ienatschs-braking-top-5/

Although no doubt many old riders of old Trumpy's go way too slow to consider this stuff I know for sure that there are those out there who ride those old bikes like they was modern bikes.
For those among you who enjoy the finer skills of faster styles of riding I would value your opinions on this concept of Trail Braking as proposed by Nick Ienatsch.

 

[pmorritt]

Yes, mentioned, discussed several times be for. Take a minute and use the search function
And , who the hell are you calling an Older Rider bro!

 

[speedrattle]

i'm trying to master this.

i would be delighted to listen to people on this subject.

 

[Trumpkin]

Yes, mentioned, discussed several times be for. Take a minute and use the search function
And , who the hell are you calling an Older Rider bro!

Well I never have much luck with those search functions pm, so sorry to be a bore. Regarding my description of old I'm thinking of myself bro, particularly relating to slow riding.
I can't even keep up with a good rider on a TR6 when I'm riding my Ducati mate, cause I just don't have that confidence I may once have had in the corners. Getting older has had experiences along the way, like hitting a Roo and breaking my arm, and many years on a Moto Guzzi that in my opinion didn't handle well, all of which lessened my confidence , but of late my Duke has been teaching me how to ride a bit better and I have applied this to my TR7 which seems to handle pretty darn well.
Thus the instructions to slightly load the front and the resulting increase of contact on the spread tyre seems to give more stability as long as you don't hit a patch of gravel. From what I gather even then you have an advantage from taking that corner in a more controlled way and I believe that if there were a sudden unexpected reason to stop you'd have a better chance. I take on board the criticism that there are many reasons where it can't help as for example when a Roo or a Deer decides to jump in your way and there is simply no way to avoid it.
I lived on a dirt road for a decade and talking with many riders about the wildlife . I discovered that the ones who had the most confidence didn't worry at all. They simply accelerated and rode over anything that presented itself. One morning I spoke with a guy who said he'd already hit 4 roos that morning and hadn't fallen once.
It's obviously not the same on a heavier road bike where hitting one of those animals will bend your forks and send you down the road sideways. In my case I bounced on the Walleroo[A heavy set animal like a stocky Roo on steroids] the bike hit the road, I hit the road and the Walleroo kept going on his merry way.
But anyway this has nothing to do with Trail Braking apart from the confidence aspect.
I'd love to hear from anyone who practises this on their old Trumpy and daily riding, their observations and thoughts on methods and so on. I believe smoothness in all functions is the key to good safer riding.

 

[duc96cr]

Did you bring this up because of the thread on the Ducati forum ? I think if you ever rode motocross on tight tracks you would acquire the riding habits that , when used on the street, are called trail braking. I really only use this method when riding by myself, because riding curvy roads with friends of various skill levels throws my timing off unless I’m the one in front. If I’m in the middle or back of the group i end up having people slowing down far earlier going into a corner. By myself, I’m on the brakes until I reach the Apex, at which time dropping over and targeting my exit point on the other side. I’m back on the throttle as I drop over, but still fingers on the brake lever until past the Apex before rolling on throttle. So , depending on whether I’m going slow enough or not, and holding the line I chose or not, I may be simultaneously applying throttle to hold my line and braking to scrub speed and transfer weight. Is that trail braking ? There seems to be a difference of opinion . I do this on a Ducati or a T140, though the Triumph is easier to ride up to that point where a wiggle sets in when you hit a bump.

 

[Trumpkin]

Did you bring this up because of the thread on the Ducati forum ?

Yeah I started that thread but was interested in the attitude of Triumph riders as opposed to Duke riders.
I think you are Trail Braking , that's as good a description as I've read.
It's strange to come to this at my stage of riding, like when I'm maybe nearly done, or at least in my last quarter. I was always under the impression that one shouldn't use the front brake in a corner under any circumstances, so basically if anything got in the way you either had to dodge it or throw the bike down the road. I am happy to learn and I fully expect a lot of riders to think as I used to, which is why I wanted to have this discussion as well.

 

[GavinE]

I am on the same page as duc96cr . its a lot easier with touchy feely modern discs, the self servo effect of a front TLS makes it different.
It goes without saying that road surface condition also has a lot to do with it, not something I do in wet or loose conditions. Losing the front end on a bend is never good. There are a lot of corners in scotland , plenty of practice opportunities.

 

[Rancidpegwoman]

Hi Trumpkin
‘Not for us’ is the phrase that comes to mind, it’s a modern technique for modern bikes:

Tyres:
You will be braking/steering and leaning at the same time, you need the tyres to be sticky and preferably getting progressively stickier towards the outer edge, you also need pliable sidewalls to ‘increase the contact patch under load’. Unless you have upgraded to radial tyres then you are at much greater risk of the front tyre sliding away. The thin Cross ply tyres fitted to Classics just don’t cut it for trail braking.

Brakes:
You need good feedback to the lever and fingertip control, the standard wooden paddle ‘on or off’ disk brake fitted to T140’s does not give you enough control, it it will be so easy to approach the wheel locking point without noticing. Self servo drum brakes-no chance far too aggressive .
Unless you have made some serious upgrades to the front brakes, standard Classic Triumph brakes they just don’t cut it for trail braking.

Rake:
One of the fundamental principles of trail braking is to use the downforce created by braking to increase the grip of the front tyre. The long rake of these old frames will tend to push the brake forces more froward, rather than downward like steep head angled modern bike will do. So instead of pushing the tyre into the ground, the tendency is to push the tyre forwards, making it skid. Classic bike frames just don’t cut it for trail braking.

Trail braking is for R6’s, etc. Modern sports bikes-even then many sports bike riders have been down the road on their arses trying it. You also need practice; perhaps if you can do 10 stoppies in a row, with the rear wheel at least 3 feet in the air, then you are ready to try trail braking to increase your corner speed. It can be done, but you might find ‘slow in fast out’ might be a safer and quicker riding technique for classics.

Good luck
let me know where you want the flowers sent>

Regards
Peg.

 

[Redmoggy]

I disagree, I was taught to use the brake in a corner to tighten the turning radius. With the exception of a year long stint on a Sprint all my riding in the last 12 years has been on my 66 TR6. I routinely Trail brake with the back brake (I like the person behind me to see the brake lamp) and occasionally the front though I find this a little more difficult due to the long reach to the lever.

Rod

 

[Truckedup]

I have a 96 900 Monster and the 79 Triumph.Both have suspenisons sorted out for my liking.The Ducati does have higher limits but both bikes respond to the same type inputs.. For street riding I try not to use the front brake when setting up for a corner.But it's not an absolute and varies with the situation..One time several years ago on a Moto guzzi, several of us were hustling along when I went into a corner too fast as I was starting to lean over..I hit the front brake and the bike tried to stand up causing me to run wide and cross the center line... Bad bad...And of course using the front brake hard generally reduces cornering clearance.

 

[BonnieBlack]

There's a good thread here: https://www.triumphrat.net/riding-and-survival-skills/950294-trail-braking.html

Watching those videos and experimenting has really transformed how I enter corners on my modern Bonnie. Some of them, not most of them. There is no need to come completely off the front brake before you start the lean-in is all there is too it. Applies to my bike as well as an R6, I would image yours as well. It's not just about high speed performance, just healthy speed control.

 

[duc96cr]

Different attitude on different bikes. Ducati riders usually give a lot of thought and energy (and money) to make a good handling bike into a great handling bike. My T140 is never going to handle as well as my SS, but the techniques I’ve used to make my Ducati handle better can be used with my T140, or any motorcycle. I have modern tires ( nobody notices) my sag has been adjusted front and rear ( for my weight) replacement front springs, updated internals in the forks, aftermarket shocks with remote reservoirs, exhaust smaller ( more ground clearance) upgraded brake pads (EBC Kevlar GG) , my triples have been modified to allow sliding the fork tubes up ( bar clamp change required. No center stand ( ground clearance) . Probably more things I forgot. My bike looks like yours , but as I have no hang up about “proper “ tires, etc, my bike handles better.

 

[Trumpkin]

What tyres are you running Duc96cr ?

 

[Barnstormer]

Trail braking

This is quite informative, the jury's still out on this for me, time & place for it maybe? I fully understand all the science of it, but was never taught it, not even in many of the Police training courses I've taken.

 

[Truckedup]

Different attitude on different bikes. Ducati riders usually give a lot of thought and energy (and money) to make a good handling bike into a great handling bike. My T140 is never going to handle as well as my SS, but the techniques I’ve used to make my Ducati handle better can be used with my T140, or any motorcycle. I have modern tires ( nobody notices) my sag has been adjusted front and rear ( for my weight) replacement front springs, updated internals in the forks, aftermarket shocks with remote reservoirs, exhaust smaller ( more ground clearance) upgraded brake pads (EBC Kevlar GG) , my triples have been modified to allow sliding the fork tubes up ( bar clamp change required. No center stand ( ground clearance) . Probably more things I forgot. My bike looks like yours , but as I have no hang up about “proper “ tires, etc, my bike handles better.

Absolutely.....Tires and suspension if you like to ride fast...

 

[Trumpkin]

This is quite informative, the jury's still out on this for me, time & place for it maybe? I fully understand all the science of it, but was never taught it, not even in many of the Police training courses I've taken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RA3NSoOfto

Yeah thanks for that video. I thought he has a few pretty interesting points particularly with his practise regimes. But where can I find a wide open space to do that learning?

By the way I am in agreement with Rancidpegwoman too, in relation to the TR7 because I don't really think it's set up well enough for any of that kind of stuff. The front brake simply doesn't pull you up enough to even barely consider pulling up in a corner so you have to ride with that handicap if you want to chance it. As we all know, riding these old beaters, we basically ride by the seat of our pants and many have enough Rat in us to avoid catastrophe for many a decade.
It's enough to go for a blatt down the road and if the brakes stop me at the intersection then that's a blessing. Otherwise we have to take evasive action.
I remember when carbies had a habit of unscrewing on top which shot you straight onto FULL THROTTLE after the slide popped out.
In those days we had to have a weather eye on the clutch and woe betide the boy who didn't wire up a kill switch, for he would see the pistons emerging out through the head or the con rod throwing the leg out of bed.
Some ended up going through walls because they were too stupid to pull in the clutch.
I guess it was a selection process.
These days things have got safer in some ways and much more dangerous in others.
There's so much more traffic these days which makes everything perilous.
But modern bikes, specially nice ones, have very good brakes and suspension but correspondingly they go a lot harder.
But you all know this well, stating the bleeding obvious is one of my foibles, so sorry for bringing modern riding into sharp focus over here where we mostly struggle to even get the old beast running sweet.
However I do think it's worth going to all that trouble to get the forks and shocks right and then to strive for a well functioning braking setup and probably modern tyres. Once that's achieved it's probably time to check some of these modern ideas out because they have been thinking and learning a lot since our old bikes were made.

 

[chuckwalksdogs]

Have we mentioned this before?

https://ridelikeachampion.com/nick-ienatschs-braking-top-5/

Although no doubt many old riders of old Trumpy's go way too slow to consider this stuff I know for sure that there are those out there who ride those old bikes like they was modern bikes.
For those among you who enjoy the finer skills of faster styles of riding I would value your opinions on this concept of Trail Braking as proposed by Nick Ienatsch.

Wow this is great content. Thanks for sharing!

I'm in my 3rd season of riding and just upgraded from 350lb Honda to a 600lb Triumph. I'm already a slow rider but the bigger bike definitely requires different use of throttle and braking inputs. I'm always interested in minor technical changes I can make while riding to increase safety (and make riding even more fun).
Cheers,
-Chuck

 

[rbe]

i think some may have misunderstood nick ienatsch's main point - trail braking is an important skill for anyone, on any bike, to learn and use
its not just for racing, or new bikes - and he's talking about the front brake - not the rear
i consider nick's tuesday missives some of the best content on the web and his riding hints are invaluable - you're never too old to learn, and i'm pretty old
he is the first to recognise (and takes may column inches to acknowledge this) that many of his suggestions fly in the face of accepted wisdom
although i was never taught it, it is something i practice on my 100kg dirt bike, my 1090 mv brutale, my supermono race bike , my 350kg harley and my T140
its funny, but after reading his recent article this week, i was riding my T140 and wondered if i was trail braking it - its become so ingrained i never even think about it
sure enough i was trail braking even riding around the city - and not going fast, and with dunlop's faux flat track tyres fitted
if you can trail brake on the dirt, there's no reason why you cant do it on an old bike with crap tyres and brakes - you just need to accept that there may be a better way to ride
i suggest people reread his articles - theres gold in them if you want to improve your riding and are prepared to put your current practices and prejudices aside
offered in the same way that almost everything else on this forum is - not saying i'm right, just to help people enjoy their bikes and riding
rory

 

[Truckedup]

I suppose I do trail braking without knowing I'm doing it, but not always..

 

[duc96cr]

I didn’t realize I was trail braking until I started reading threads on it, then I had to actually think about what my technique really ,because I don’t think about it. I’m not dragging my elbows either, I don’t ride fast. I think the slower you’re going entering a corner, the less you would trail brake because it isn’t necessary to scrub speed mid corner.