[joe 90]

Hello all
About a year ago I decided to embark on restoring the old triumph T120 Tiger that was bought as a project by my brother back in 1986. Yes that’s right 1986! I was 15 at the time and remember thinking that’s never going to happen…. I was right it didn’t get looked at after it was stuffed in a corner of the shed and there it languished for 25 years.
After my brother agreed to give it to me in payment of some money he borrowed. (£500) I finally removed it from the family home and stored it in a corner of my garage where once again it spent another decade gathering dust in a corner.
Then there was the second Covid lockdown… what can a guy do to retain sanity? first lockdown was all about installing a new kitchen and dining room conversion so it was obvious… lets drag out that sorry pile o shite from the corner of the garage and “av a go”
Having pulled out the frame, front end and various boxes of bits it soon became obvious that this was what can only be described as Frankentiger. To me it looked like someone had a shed load of old Triumph parts from various models from the 50s/60s and threw them at a T120 engine and frame.
Luckily the the frame and engine numbers matched so what what more do you need to make a start?
It turns out what you need is a lot of money, time, patience, tools, room, friends who are willing to help to mention but a few.
Of course the the first thing I did was a total stripdown and had the frame powdercoated and everything bagged and named. A closer inspection of the parts then revealed a oil tank from T6, tail light bracket from what I think was a 50s BSA, rear mudguard from as yet unknown origin, front light brackets from T6… the list goes on!
It gets better, frankentiger has a Thunderbird barrel and head and I can’t help wondering did this bike actually run like this?
So here I am one year on from the start of my project and about £1500 less well off than a year ago. I am about to put the wheels back on what can only be described as New chassis, most of the front end is new repro stuff as with the wiring harness, rear shocks, clocks, lights, seat, nuts, bolts, springs,steering damper, all the bearings everywhere (yes and the swingarm bushes) grub screws, oil tank, hoses, clips, rubber cable ties etc etc etc…

My question to you out there is this :-

Has anybody else found their restoration one of the most relaxing and rewarding experiences that they have ever had?

I will follow up at a later date with some pictures and more details of what I have done to so far.

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Joe,

Firstly, welcome to the Forum.

restoration one of the most relaxing and rewarding experiences

... and frustrating, time-consuming, irritating ... As is all old-vehicle ownership ime ...

bought as a project by my brother back in 1986.
To me it looked like someone had a shed load of old Triumph parts from various models from the 50s/60s and threw them at a T120 engine and frame.

Fwiw, that's what people did certainly in the 1970's. I started with a brand-new Triumph in 1977 and, 'til the early 1980's, absent t'internet, new spares could be difficult to find, these bikes were just cheap transport, that parts fitted (or could be bodged) together was how people who couldn't afford Japanese bikes managed.

frame and engine numbers matched

Have you ascertained the 'model year' and/or would you care to share?

View attachment 791019

You did at least change that lockstop?

one year on from the start of my project

Risking posting information you know already ...

T120 Tiger

Triumph under Edward Turner became very good at creating ranges of 'different' model versions with only a few different parts; the vast majority of parts in a given range were common to all bikes in the range. So the frame and crankcases (note deliberately not "engine" ... ) in your pictures are basically 650 from somewhere between '63 and '70; the only things that differentiated a T120 Bonneville from other 650 versions were a cylinder head with 'splayed' inlet ports (the single-carb. head's two parallel inlet ports were too close together to mount the original two Amal Monobloc or superseding Concentrc carbs.), the model code stamped on the drive-side crankcase and the paint job on petrol tank and mudguards. Otoh, the '63-'66 6T Thunderbird and all TR6 versions (Trophy, Tiger and '67-on police TR6P) all used the same parallel-port head with bolt-on manifold for the single carb.

Thunderbird barrel and head

Uh-uh, afaict just any single-carb. (i.e. not T120) pre-'63 pre-unit.

"Unit" is an engine with crankcase and gearbox only in separate compartments in the same castings; i.e. your bike's crankcase.

Otoh, "pre-unit" is so-called to differentiate an engine made up of crankcase and gearbox in separate castings, linked by more separate primary chaincase castings.

When Triumph changed the 650 range from pre-unit to unit engines for the '63 model year, they also put a ninth bolt between the combustion chambers into the cylinder block and deleted the external rocker-box oil drain pipes, oil only drained down the pushrod tubes back to the crankcase.

The unit engine's crankcase is shorter front-to-back so Meriden also changed the frame, including adding the bolts that secure the swinging arm pivot to the rear engine mounting plates.

Having written the frame is basically from somewhere between '63 and '70, nevertheless Meriden made a number of changes in those years, primarily to isolate components attached to the frame (oil tank, sidepanel, battery carrier, etc.) from the parallel-twin vibration:-

. If all the oil tank brackets fit the frame, the tank's just 'correct' for the frame, not specifically 6T Thunderbird.

. "headlamp brackets" on their own won't be 6T, that had a "nacelle" made of upper and lower steel pressings, fully-enclosing the headlamp at the front, upper also mounting speedo., Ammeter, ignition and lighting switches, lower with steel tubes covering the fork legs down to partially over the seal holders - the rubber gaiters in View attachment 791025 were fitted to other versions.

rear mudguard from as yet unknown origin

Material (ordinary steel, stainless or aluminium)? View attachment 791026 appears to show it bolts both to the bracket over the rear frame loop and the 'bridge' between the shocks.? If so, and the various bolt holes are punched (clean edges, some slotted) rather than hand-drilled, it was likely made originally for a 'unit' 650 or 500; photo. of the holes in the rear of the 'guard?

tail light bracket from what I think was a 50s BSA

Photo.?

will follow up at a later date with some pictures and more details of what I have done to so far.

Hth.

Regards,

 

[joe 90]

Hi Joe,

Firstly, welcome to the Forum.


... and frustrating, time-consuming, irritating ... As is all old-vehicle ownership ime ...


Fwiw, that's what people did certainly in the 1970's. I started with a brand-new Triumph in 1977 and, 'til the early 1980's, absent t'internet, new spares could be difficult to find, these bikes were just cheap transport, that parts fitted (or could be bodged) together was how people who couldn't afford Japanese bikes managed.


Have you ascertained the 'model year' and/or would you care to share?


You did at least change that lockstop?


Risking posting information you know already ...y


Triumph under Edward Turner became very good at creating ranges of 'different' model versions with only a few different parts; the vast majority of parts in a given range were common to all bikes in the range. So the frame and crankcases (note deliberately not "engine" ... ) in your pictures are basically 650 from somewhere between '63 and '70; the only things that differentiated a T120 Bonneville from other 650 versions were a cylinder head with 'splayed' inlet ports (the single-carb. head's two parallel inlet ports were too close together to mount the original two Amal Monobloc or superseding Concentrc carbs.), the model code stamped on the drive-side crankcase and the paint job on petrol tank and mudguards. Otoh, the '63-'66 6T Thunderbird and all TR6 versions (Trophy, Tiger and '67-on police TR6P) all used the same parallel-port head with bolt-on manifold for the single carb.


Uh-uh, afaict just any single-carb. (i.e. not T120) pre-'63 pre-unit.

"Unit" is an engine with crankcase and gearbox only in separate compartments in the same castings; i.e. your bike's crankcase.

Otoh, "pre-unit" is so-called to differentiate an engine made up of crankcase and gearbox in separate castings, linked by more separate primary chaincase castings.

When Triumph changed the 650 range from pre-unit to unit engines for the '63 model year, they also put a ninth bolt between the combustion chambers into the cylinder block and deleted the external rocker-box oil drain pipes, oil only drained down the pushrod tubes back to the crankcase.

The unit engine's crankcase is shorter front-to-back so Meriden also changed the frame, including adding the bolts that secure the swinging arm pivot to the rear engine mounting plates.

Having written the frame is basically from somewhere between '63 and '70, nevertheless Meriden made a number of changes in those years, primarily to isolate components attached to the frame (oil tank, sidepanel, battery carrier, etc.) from the parallel-twin vibration:-

. If all the oil tank brackets fit the frame, the tank's just 'correct' for the frame, not specifically 6T Thunderbird.

. "headlamp brackets" on their own won't be 6T, that had a "nacelle" made of upper and lower steel pressings, fully-enclosing the headlamp at the front, upper also mounting speedo., Ammeter, ignition and lighting switches, lower with steel tubes covering the fork legs down to partially over the seal holders - the rubber gaiters in View attachment 791025 were fitted to other versions.


Material (ordinary steel, stainless or aluminium)? View attachment 791026 appears to show it bolts both to the bracket over the rear frame loop and the 'bridge' between the shocks.? If so, and the various bolt holes are punched (clean edges, some slotted) rather than hand-drilled, it was likely made originally for a 'unit' 650 or 500; photo. of the holes in the rear of the 'guard?


Photo.?




Hth.

Regards,

Thanks for all your comments.
I continue to learn more about triumph bikes, history and just about everything in between.
in answer to your questions the head is what Looks like iron and the rear mudguard is stainless, although it has a nickel look to it… I really am no expert?
I have another question for you learned folk.
As I will not be tuning it back into a saint police bike should it be a Tiger or Trophy?

10 points to who can tell me what the rear light belongs to?

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Joe,

head is what Looks like iron

Then deffo pre-unit, all unit engines had ally heads. Also, depending on its year, you're more-likely right about it being Thunderbird (6T) - through the 1950's, ally heads were fitted to more 'sporty' versions in a range.

rear mudguard is stainless, although it has a nickel look to it…

If stainless, just not highly-polished? Meriden tended to fit stainless 'guards to US off-road versions like the TR6C and T100C - they would've fitted ally 'guards but the vibes split them even faster than steel ones ...

will not be tuning it back into a saint police bike should it be a Tiger or Trophy?

Probably a Trophy but ... are you sitting comfortably ...?

"Tiger" was used originally by Edward Turner from 1936 for 'sporty' road versions ... 'til Johnny Allen broke the 2-wheel world speed record on/in a 650-engined streamliner at Bonneville ... Thereafter, 'til the end of the pre-units in '62, there was still a "Tiger" in the 650 range but single-carb. when the Bonnie had twin carbs.

Otoh, "Trophy" was for 'sporty' off-road versions from 1949, deriving from Triumph winning a team trophy at the 1948 International Six Days Trial.

'63-'68, Tiger was only used on 500 and 350 versions, the single-carb 650 without the nacelle was a Trophy; the US had a road version (TR6(S)R) and an off-road version (TR6(S)C - the S was dropped from November 1965), the rest of the world had just a TR6 (no suffix) road Trophy.

'69/'70, the US-only TR6R was called "Tiger" again, the US-only TR6C and the ROW TR6 remained "Trophy".

'71-on, the previously US-only model codes and names (TR6R Tiger and TR6C Trophy) were used world-wide; however, off-road 4-strokes were becoming increasingly-uncompetitive against 2-strokes, the last TR6C was built in '72. The TR6R, 5-speed TR6RV and later TR7RV Tigers were pretty-much the same as contemporary Bonnevilles bar the single/twin carbs.

rear light belongs to?

Not sure what the mount is from but the lamp itself is a Lucas 564, supplied to all British motorcycle makers, fitted by Triumph to all pre-'66 bikes, '66-'70 to non-US-market bikes.

Hth.

Regards,

 

[joe 90]

…rolling
It’s been a few months since my last post and there has been progress… very slow progress.
After buying a somewhat rusty and dented oil tank and side panel I quickly realised that the rear subframe was incorrect for the year (1968 tr6p).
I am not sure what this is from but it is missing the two lugs and bracket so the side panel can be mounted.
Never the less I decided I needed some encouragement and went ahead with an assembly so I can finally see a rolling chassis.
I can honestly say once done it really made me smile.
Of course this wasn’t just an exercise in encouragement it was a great way to find out if any more parts were alien to the original spec or just missing. I have to say that it paid off as the battery tray, Speedo gear drive, front spindle, rear wheel spacer, rear wheel, and front wheel are not original to the bike.
The wheels are fine and I can live with them as long as they work well enough but a battery tray, Speedo drive and spacer were promptly purchased and fitted.
Hopefully i will soon receive the replacement subframe, have it powder coated and back on the frame ready to tackle the lights and electrical parts.

joe

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Joe,

After buying a somewhat rusty and dented oil tank and side panel I quickly realised that the rear subframe was incorrect for the year (1968 tr6p)
not sure what this is from but it is missing the two lugs and bracket so the side panel can be mounted.

Depends what you mean ...

. If the oil tank is the one in View attachment 791023 , 'fraid it's that that's incorrect, it's for a pre-'63 500 or 350.

. At best, the sidepanel in the same photo. might fit some '63-'65 650 versions; at worst, it's also 500/350 (looks similar, not the same).

. The rear subframe in your photos. appears to be '66 or '67:-

.. The spigots on the left-hand seat tube pointing towards the flat metal oil tank top mounting brackets on the right-hand tube are '66-on - rubbers fit on the spigots then what Triumph termed "Front strap" and "Rear strap" fit over the rubbers and bolt to the corresponding flat metal bracket on the other tube; the sheet-metal battery carrier hangs from the "straps".

.. '68-on rear subframes have:-

... two more spigots for rubber mountings on the tube from the left top shock absorber to the bottom junction with the front frame; these rubber-mount the '68-on sidepanel;

... a small square lug with a hole hanging down from the underside of the left-hand seat tube, close to the tube's top junction with the front frame; this lug both rubber-mounts and secures the '68-on sidepanel.

Illustrations in the parts books show most of the differences; if it's any help, a free-to-read-online parts book library and a free-to-read-online library of workshop manuals and other resources.

the battery tray
not original to the bike

As your post above isn't clear about the oil tank, sidepanel and rear subframe, are you sure about the tray? Photos.?

rear wheel
rear wheel spacer
Speedo gear drive
are not original to the bike

In what way? Photos.?

front wheel
front spindle
are not original to the bike

Front brake plate and front cover plate are not original to Triumph afaik ... Whole wheel is possibly not Triumph - if you enter, say, "1967 triumph 650" ('67 was the last year of SLS (single-leading shoe) front brake on 650's) into your preferred internet search engine and examine the returned images, I couldn't find either a brake plate or a left-hand hub cover that looked like your bike's?

While we're in the area, forks are minefield too:-

. Zener diode heatsink mounted off the lower yoke is '68-on.

. However, '69-on, Triumph spaced the fork leg centres 1/4" further apart - pre-'69 = 6-1/2", '69-on = 6-3/4". Nevertheless, pre-'69 and '69-on bits can apparently bolt together, but give odd problems - e.g.:-

.. if you fit the wrong spindle for the yoke, while the slider bottoms can be pushed together/apart so the spindle clamp bolts will fit past the spindle indents, the sliders then don't slide ...;

.. by definition, the brake anchor on the right-hand slider is 1/8" wider '69-on than pre-'69.

On the front end, one indicator of pre-'69 or '69-on can be threadforms - by-and-large, pre-'69 are British Standard, mostly Cycle; '69-on are Unified, mostly UNF. But that doesn't apply to, say, the rear wheel - they don't have Unified threads 'til '70-on ...

lights and electrical parts.

Do you intend to use an off-the-shelf wiring loom, or DIY from wire and terminals?

. Off-the-shelf loom, you must pick a year and use the cycle parts - sidepanel, headlamp shell, headlamp mounting, etc. - because all off-the-shelf looms are exact copies of what the original Lucas company produced for Triumph, different electrical components were/are mounted in different places in different years. Note:-

.. "the original Lucas company", the current company using the "Lucas" brand - Wassell - never had any connection to the original Lucas company and Wassell have a long-time poor quality rep.

.. The best off-the-shelf looms are made by Autosparks and retailed by TMS. I've also read good reports about looms sold by L.P. Williams but don't know who makes 'em and haven't used 'em.

.. "pick a year and use the cycle parts" - '68 sidepanel has only one hole - for the ignition switch - the rotary lighting switch is mounted in the headlamp shell; '69-on sidepanels will fit a '68 rear subframe but don't have any switch holes because the ignition switch is mounted in the left-hand headlamp mounting, lighting switch is a 3-position (off, pilot, head) lever switch, added an oil pressure warning switch ... '69-on parts are more common because they were also used across the range in '70 and the T100 continued to use 'em 'til '74.

.. "all off-the-shelf looms are exact copies of ..."; i.e. they have connections for separate rectifier, Zener diode, points, condensers ... new rectifier and Zener diode are expensive compared to a modern combined regulator/rectifier, modern (Wassell) Zener diodes are unreliable ...

.. If you want to fit a modern reg./rec. and electronic ignition, an off-the-shelf loom needs modifying. That modifying soon reaches the point where you think you might as well have DIY from wires and terminals ...

. I've been DIY-ing looms from wires and terminals for approaching forty years. It's very easy:-

.. In addition to the aforementioned Autosparks, I also use Vehicle Wiring Products.

.. Btw, I hope you're buying a new alternator? If so, bearing in mind all the '62-on stators use the same rotor, all '62-on stators are the same physical size and pretty-much the same price, the 'most bang for your buck' is the high-output 3-phase the original Lucas company made from mid-'78 and Meriden fitted as standard to electric-start twins. Don't worry about "high-output", the term is only relative to the output of earlier Lucas stators, it really tells you more how feeble earlier ones were and how big a waste of money say a modern equivalent of the original '68 stator would be today. If there's a downside, all new rotors and stators are Wassell ... 😐

If required, happy to expand further on all options.

Hth.

Regards,

 

[joe 90]

Hello

Re pick a year and stick to it is great advice!

Thank you so much for your responses,
You are spot on with the rear subframe so I have purchased another from a 68 t120, had it powder coated and swapped them over. (Will be putting the old one on eBay soon)

In answer to your loom question. I have already purchased a new Lucas loom and single phase regulator rectifier. I will see how the old alternator works once I get to that point although I suspect like everything else on the bike it’s probably useless.

RE front wheel. Looks like you are correct about that too, I initially thought it was off a t100 and will need to be swapped out for a Half decent TLS but sadly they are proving a little hard to find.
The yoke and triple tree are from a 68 model and sporting the 6 3/4in centres and of course the spindle in my mystery wheel looks to be 6 1/4 leaving a 1/4 gap at each end.

Is it normal when you restore these old gals to get totally fed up with them? Every time I look at it it seems that I find something else need replacing/swapping and so far it looks like all I have really got is a box of bits that are from other bikes and half a frame + half an engine.

Some good news is that I have also purchased
a reasonable stainless rear mudguard(D section shape)
A really nice looking cast aluminium rear light complete with Lucas lenses, reflectors and a chrome chain-guard that’s going to need a little fettling.




joe 90

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Joe,

The yoke and triple tree are from a 68 model and sporting the 6 3/4in centres

Wouldn't be original on a '68:-

'69-on, Triumph spaced the fork leg centres 1/4" further apart - pre-'69 = 6-1/2", '69-on = 6-3/4".

front wheel
will need to be swapped out for a Half decent TLS but sadly they are proving a little hard to find.

'68 (8") TLS - cable outer anchor is about the 9 o'clock position on the brake plate, cable inner parallel to the link rod between the two shoe levers - is one year only.

'69-on 8" TLS - cable outer anchor on the brake plate beside the slider, cranked front shoe lever - is 'more' common because it was fitted to the T100R 'til '74; however, TLS are easy to fit to pre-'68 Triumphs and people have been doing it for decades ...

7" TLS from part-way through '69 to end '71 - cable anchor position and front shoe lever same as '69-on 8", fitted to more models (non-Daytona T100's, 250's) but shorter time.

Also be aware:-

. Any Triumph/BSA TLS can be fitted into any Triumph steel-slider forks just using the correct spindle for the 6-1/2" or 6-3/4" legs centres, just be aware the 6-1/2" has a 20 tpi Cycle thread for the brake plate nut, the 6-3/4" has a 20 tpi UNEF (Unified Extra Fine) thread for the brake plate nut ...

. Exactly the same brakes were fitted to contemporary BSA's.

normal when you restore these old gals to get totally fed up with them?

First-time restorer, 'fraid more likely, especially as your current bike dates from about the end of the period when they were just considered 'old bikes', kept going with whatever worked. If you get the bug, subsequent projects, you've learned some of the gotchas, you'll learn more.

Hth.

Regards,

 

[joe 90]

Hi Stuart

That’s very interesting information that could have taken me ages figure out. 👍🏼
So are you saying that I can fit a 8in TLS brake plate into my existing hub (see picture) or I can use a complete wheel and plate from an older model?

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Joe,

very interesting information that could have taken me ages figure out. 👍🏼

"All part of the service."

are you saying that I can fit a 8in TLS brake plate into my existing hub

Theoretically, yes. However, practically, wise to use a hub with a 'shoulder' for the spoke heads around each drum outer edge - earlier drums don't have one or both 'shoulders', the spoke heads are inside the drum. Aiui, the 'shoulders' also strengthen the drum, particularly on the brake plate side.

Photo. of the outside of the drum/hub you have?

or I can use a complete wheel and plate from an older model?

Complete wheel, you'd want one originally from either a '69/'70 triple, '68-70 650, later-'68-to-'74 T100R or T100T.

Hth.

Regards,

 

[joe 90]

Hi Stuart

Thanks for the advice, I have read on this forum that the redesign was due to cracking and extra heat produced… I really don’t want to mess with that!

Guess I better treat myself early Christmas present.

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Joe,

read on this forum that the redesign was due to cracking

Mmmm ... I read that too, although on another forum. All I can say is, involved with Triumphs for 44 years, I've never seen a cracked front brake drum that wasn't accident damage ...

Otoh, the TLS shoes do rub over spoke heads through the edge of the drum, which probably isn't good ...

Hth.

Regards,

 

[joe 90]

Well that’s my mind made up then.
new front wheel + Hub and perhaps a new paint job on the tank for Christmas.
Has anybody got any recommendations for someone who can do an authentic paint job, say something-that resembles a 68 Trophy t120 (red with white stripe)
I hear dream machine are quite good?

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Joe,

recommendations for someone who can do an authentic paint job

I've used Nick @ FD Motorcycles for years. Nearest I lived to FD was a 250-mile round trip (further now).

dream machine

I've had good and bad experiences with Dream Machine, both many years ago. First was a standard Japanese bike paint job (good), second was a custom (simple) T160 tank and sidepanels (bad). Now, I'd never use a company like Dream Machine, simply because I can't speak to the guy actually doing the job (unlike, say, Nick @ FD).

Hth.

Regards,