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Discussion Starter #1
Hello All.

Recently my Tiger 955i (2005) developed an ignition coil fault and I received good advice from Tiger-G in diagnosing that fault. The ignition coil was replaced, error codes deleted via TuneECU and off I rode. Straight away I noticed the bike was surging during acceleration and a few miles down the road the surging got worse and the engine management light came on. I plugged in Tune ECU. The only indicated error was - fault code P0123 - Throttle position sensor high voltage or short circuit to battery.

I am very careful when doing any work. I rechecked all the wiring etc and all was fine.

How is it possible to suddenly develop a TPS fault after replacing one ignition coil ??????

Thanks.

(My understanding is that you cannot perform a 12 minute reset on the Tiger 955i with a Sagem ECU and it's £150 for a new TPS !!!!!)
 

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Hello All.



Recently my Tiger 955i (2005) developed an ignition coil fault and I received good advice from Tiger-G in diagnosing that fault. The ignition coil was replaced, error codes deleted via TuneECU and off I rode. Straight away I noticed the bike was surging during acceleration and a few miles down the road the surging got worse and the engine management light came on. I plugged in Tune ECU. The only indicated error was - fault code P0123 - Throttle position sensor high voltage or short circuit to battery.



I am very careful when doing any work. I rechecked all the wiring etc and all was fine.



How is it possible to suddenly develop a TPS fault after replacing one ignition coil ??????



Thanks.



(My understanding is that you cannot perform a 12 minute reset on the Tiger 955i with a Sagem ECU and it's £150 for a new TPS !!!!!)


Is it a misfire or a surge?

Unfortunately this kind of problem is all too familiar to mechanics. It could be anything from an induced voltage to a bad connection that’s just decided to play up. My job is selling diagnostic tools to mechanics. For every mechanic out there, there is a hundred of these weird stories. Sorry for being so ambiguous but it is kind of a “how long is a piece of string” question. A good coil will draw more amperage so can stress other parts of the system. Just because the ECU thinks it’s TPS doesn’t automatically make it so.

Recently I have found bad connections in the multi pin plugs behind the headlight throwing heaps of random codes. My bike had grease packed into the connectors to stop corrosion but had hardened and created a bad connection. I cleaned it out with a can of electrical cleaner and compressed air. That would be a good place to start.



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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for the reply Dmacoz.

The fault is enough to make the bike unrideable. As you accelerate the engine feels like the fuel supply has been cut off and the bike slows and you have to rev and slip the clutch to keep it going (although it does tick over OK).

The bike is all original and there are no nasty DIY taped up electrical connections anywhere but I will check all the other connections unrelated to the fuel system that you suggest, such as the connections behind the headlights.

I haven't had time recently to check the TPS but suspect it will give good readings ?

The ignition coil replaced was a second hand one from a bike with a similar mileage. TuneECU did not show an ignition coil fault after it was replaced.

The point you made about the ECU thinking there's a fault when there's not one, does this mean the bike will behave like there's a TPS fault even if there's not one ?????

Thanks.
 

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Hey dogday,

Yes it’s not uncommon for random fault codes to be triggered by unusual events.

I had a no start situation four weeks ago. Nothing from the starter button and it threw a heap of codes (can’t remember sorry). The dash lights didn’t dim when I hit the starter so I knew it was on the switching side. Clutch switch worked well, so I followed the wiring back to a multi pin. Cleaning the pins fixed it. Shortly after that I had a stalling issue. I thought I had cleaned all connectors but found another. Cleaning that fixed the stalling.

If it’s second hand chances are it’s the coil pack. I would run an ohm meter over the primary windings to see if the other two are similar values. You may find the correct resistance values somewhere online.

Seeing as copper work hardens the older it gets the more likely it is to have a bad connection somewhere. Start with the basics before assuming it’s a sensor or an adjustment. Check battery connections and follow the leads down to the earth on the bike. Clean them up and refit.

If you believe it’s fuel related maybe just has a look at the fuel pump feed wires for connection and see if the fuel hose is kinked. I guess it’s also possible that taking the tank off stirred up a heap of crud and it’s now stuck in the Pre filter on the pump inlet? Doubtful it’s a pretty long and corse filter. As soon as I got mine I replaced the pump and cleaned the tank out as I didn’t like the thought of a critical part of the bike failing at a random time.

Does it happen straight after start or develop slowly?

I would be pretty sure in guessing it’s an induced problem created by performing the work rather than the work if that makes sense. That is of course if it’s not a faulty coil pack.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Hi Dmacoz,

Thanks for all the ideas of what the problem could be. I'm going to print it off your reply and work my way through it.

I had a starting problem a few weeks back, charged the battery, checked the side stand switch and worked my way through the ignition and starter wiring. Next day of working out the problem I remembered to pull in the clutch first !!:embarrassed.

Good point about the coil. It's often wrong to assume that a replacement part has eliminated that potential fault. The problem with the way the bike rides is also the same as when the problem first happened before the coil was replaced. This could mean that removing the fuel tank has not caused the problem ? It could also mean that another coil is at fault as replacing coil no.2 made no difference (except for the fault code reading)? Coil no.2 is the middle one if I'm correct?

Seeing as TPS's aren't commonly available on Ebay it doesn't look like a part that is prone to breakage ?

When you ride off the surging is there, but fairly minimal, and then after 3 or 4 miles gets worse and the engine management light comes on. This could be a coil breaking down as it heats up ???

Loads of assumptions. I'll follow your advice and won't assume anything but work through it. I'll let you know how it goes.

Cheers mate.:smile2:
 

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Yes. If it changes as it gets hotter it could definitely be a coil. The resistance value of the primary and secondary windings will increase as it heats up. The symptoms fit. However there is a million other things.

It does sound like you’re onto it though.

The most conclusive way of testing is with an ohm meter or a multi meter. They’re insanely cheap now days. It would be a good idea to get one. A quick google will show you how to use it if it’s new to you.

Flick it over to the “omega” symbol connect it to the coil terminals, record the readings on each terminal and then keep testing the other two coils. It will be pretty obvious if you have a coil breaking down that badly. You will be looking for a much higher value on the faulty coil.

Yes two is the middle one and also the hottest.

Edit: you cannot destroy a coil by connecting a multi meter up. It doesn’t matter what setting or what you connect it to. Always make sure that the component you are testing is disconnected if you are measuring resistance (omega) symbol.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
The most conclusive way of testing is with an ohm meter or a multi meter. They’re insanely cheap now days. It would be a good idea to get one. A quick google will show you how to use it if it’s new to you.

Flick it over to the “omega” symbol connect it to the coil terminals, record the readings on each terminal and then keep testing the other two coils. It will be pretty obvious if you have a coil breaking down that badly. You will be looking for a much higher value on the faulty coil.
.
I was an electronics research technician for 4 years but that was 30 years ago so I'm pretty rusty :smile2: The removed coil gives a resistance of 1.1 ohms between the +ve and -ve connector pins and shows open circuit if connect from either connector pins and the HT plug. It is also shows open circuit if connect from the metal body of the coil to either pin or HT plug. Do these readings look about right ?? Of course, these readings could change as the engine heats up !!

If it stops raining here in the next few months I'll get on and check the other stuff you mentioned :frown2:

Cheers.
 

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It sounds a bit low. Are they all reading the same? Sorry mate, didn’t realise you were techy kind of guy. I don’t assume anything online anymore.


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Discussion Starter #9
No worries mate. I appreciate your help. I suspect the readings could be inaccurate due to my cheap multimeter (£10 of Ebay). As you'll know in your line of business cheap equipment becomes inaccurate at the high and low ends of the range so it could be that ? When I get chance I'll check the other coils and see if they give the same readings.

Cheers.
 

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Seeing as copper work hardens the older it gets the more likely it is to have a bad connection somewhere.
Sorry to nit pick but copper does not work harden just because it gets older. The copper used for electric wire is something like 99.999% pure copper. There is not any chance of a secondary phase forming that would cause the copper to harden over time like aluminum alloys in 2xxx, 6xxx, 7xxx, or 8xxx series. Work hardening happens as a result of plastic deformation at a temperature below the copper recrystalization temperature. In other words, working the material by bending, stretching, or compressing such that the metal does not return to its original shape after physical loading is removed.

Most likely the change in conductivity is due to oxidation in the electrical joints. So, the advice you gave the clean the contacts was spot on.
 

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Sorry mate but that is nit picking it’s not contributing to the topic at all.

Copper does get harder if it’s continually manipulated. It gets manipulated by vibrations in a bike so it gets harder. Try pulling an old bike apart and move the wires. The only way to soften copper up again is to anneal it by heating it up and slowly cooling it down. Can’t do that with plastic coated wires. Hard wires transfer vibration through and creates bad connections. It’s not just contacts that are accumulations for bad connections it’s anywhere along the wire.

What do you think his problem may be?


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Discussion Starter #12
Sorry to nit pick but copper does not work harden just because it gets older. The copper used for electric wire is something like 99.999% pure copper. There is not any chance of a secondary phase forming that would cause the copper to harden over time like aluminum alloys in 2xxx, 6xxx, 7xxx, or 8xxx series. Work hardening happens as a result of plastic deformation at a temperature below the copper recrystalization temperature. In other words, working the material by bending, stretching, or compressing such that the metal does not return to its original shape after physical loading is removed.

Most likely the change in conductivity is due to oxidation in the electrical joints. So, the advice you gave the clean the contacts was spot on.
Many materials, except for brittle materials, will have an 'elastic range' where if they are put under any kind of strain (through bending for example) will return to their original shape. If the copper wire is put under excessive strain then over time, or I suppose you could say with age, then the copper can go beyond it's elastic range and into the 'plastic' range where the copper will stretch and harden.

The wiring in the headlight area is a prime candidate as all the suspension and steering movement could put certain wires under excessive strain, especially if they have been badly rerouted from previous DIY work. So as Dmacoz says, a random wiring fault could cause erratic readings on TuneECU.

I've checked all 4 coils (3 and spare) and all read 1.2 ohms (so if these readings aren't quite right it does point to the accuracy of the multimeter) and the TPS has a nice linear resistance range when the throttle is operated (haven't checked it 'live' but this should suffice). The bike's running fine, at the moment, so it looks like a dreaded intermittent wiring/connector problem or one of the coils breaking down when it warms up?
 

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Discussion Starter #13
PROBLEM SOLVED - OLD FUEL :D

Just in case somebody is reading this in future the bike is now running perfectly. So, although the OBD reader first showed a no.2 coil fault (this was replaced and the fault persisted) and then the reader showed a TPS fault (checked this and it appeared to be OK from the meter readings).

So, during the covid lockdown the following work was done;

1. Spark plugs replaced (old ones looked OK but you can't always go on appearances)
2. Wiring and relays behind the headlight fairing unplugged and reconnected (although there were no obvious bad connections or wiring here).
3. Replaced the battery (the old battery was very old >4yrs and had been charged from flat a number of times).
4. Drained the tank and filled with fresh fuel.

Unfortunately I cannot tell which one fixed the problem but I feel 90% sure it was an old fuel problem. The bike had hardly been used for a year so was running on year old fuel. If you read about this, petrol is only good for 6 months before it starts to lose its volatile components so makes it harder to combust. During this time moisture can enter the fuel which could give the surging issues.

Changing the fuel did seem to really improve the running (just parked up) and then a ride up Snake pass a mile from my home proved the problem was fixed. It could be the way your bike seems to run better when its has a good clean but think not? If it wasn't the fuel the next possible culprit would be the old battery?

Take care.

One happy biker :D
 
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