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Discussion Starter #1
Had a search for the answer, but not immediately obvious.

Just pulled the timing cover on my TR7RV and an egg cup full of oil leaked out. No oil in the points chest.

Presumably there is supposed to be oil in the timing chest, as there are holes through into the flywheel chest. Is the timing area splash-fed from the flywheel rotation, or is there a feed from somewhere that simply overflows back into the flywheel chest?

I think the engine was rebuilt a couple of years ago and has done very little since, until I got it this year. The crank pinion oil seal looks to be in good condition and the retaining circlip looks to be new. The engine oil pressure is good, and the return to the OiF is strong too. Only a small amount in the sump when I took the plug out, so the pump is scavenging OK.

I think the engine is fine, but not sure how the timing gears get their oil.

Could someone enlighten me pls?

Thx.
 

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Hi Andy,
The oil pressure relief valve has two outlets, one directly to the inner crankcase and another in the timing chest, if you look at your first photo you can see the hole just above the pressure relieve valve.
The oil pumped in will drain into the inner crankcase through the main bearing, lubricating that at the same time.
Regards
Peg.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
If everything is fine, why did you pull the cover off?
See my restoration thread? I bought the bike as a non runner imported from Canada in February. The engine has clearly been rebuilt recently - but there are at least 3 stripped threads in the head, and it leaks excessively. It runs, and runs well, but I don't know how it was put together, and I'd rather like to. If the PO could not be bothered to sort the stripped threads when the head was definitely off, how much more could they not be bothered to do?

I've just pulled the barrels and the +20 pistons have scoring from the oil holes - despite me changing the oil at 100 miles and having a good look at it. It looked clean. Clearly, there's muck circulating somewhere so I now need to look at the mains and the big ends. Having said that, the con rods are polished and immaculate, the inside of the crank case looks very clean, and I can detect no wear at all in the big ends. I've probably caught it in time - just.

It's an unknown build, and I want to know what the condition of the engine is, and how it was assembled. Needless to say, it's going back together with a filter kit.

Any suggestions as to which oil filter kit anyone? It's a T120R OiF.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
As an adjunct to my post #7 above, I've since had a look at the Charlies type paper filter kit, but I don't think it'll fit my T120R OiF.

The Charlies kit takes the oil pump feed through a pipe from a new sump plate. My pump feed is from a pipe sticking out of the side of the OiF vertical spine a couple of inches above the rectangular sump plate. The pump is fed (IIRC) from a pipe inside the sump gauze above the sump plate. The G/A is as the attachment from the Workshop Manual.

That means that the Charlies kit won't fit as there must be a pipe sticking down into the gauze from above, inside the spine tube. Can't recall as it's a few months since I looked but that's what the WM drg shows.

But, every ad I look at for the Charlies kit says its for a T120 - which is what the frame is. What am I missing? If the Charlie's kit won't fit, what's the alternative? Cut off the existing feed pipe and blank off, then use the Charlie's kit?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I've ordered the kit, with mounting brackets, from Paul Goff. I can then offer it up before I have the frame blasted and powder coated. His website says that it fits above the gearbox on the nearside - I queried this - he means the offside!

I also ordered one of his BA9 led pilot lights - I have one on the T100R - they are very good IMO.
 

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Hi Andy, There is an early version 1971 frame where the oil feed suction tube is welded to the backbone & this tube goes down inside the strainer screen through a hole in top of screen. If you have an early frame I recommend using a return filter, such as what you purchased.

Later in 1971 production factory simplified production by eliminating the oil feed through backbone & put it at the bottom of the sump plate facing forwards. The strainer screen now has a solid screen top. This bottom plate with separate screen system was used for the remainder of OIF production.

Later in production, the later type screen was modified by putting a band of sheet metal around to lower part of screen. This reduced sludge being sucked through screen to a degree. I've observed this sludge on every motor I serviced & it also collects in bottom of oil tank on earlier models. If you let bike sit before changing oil, or change oil cold, you'll see it. Mostly non magnetic & very fine particulates. So... If you have early screen I recommend replicating the band with some thin sheet metal & I secure it with some wire similar to safety wire. I've found it decent job helping to contain the sludge.

If you ride bike to warm oil & drain it immediately the sludge will almost always be in solution in the oil, so you'll often not see it.

Adding a paper element oil filter traps a great deal of the sludge whether in frame (Charile's, Motao) or spin on. Still the particulates will collect in bottom of frame when motor sits a few hours or overnight. So even when you install filter in return line, the frame screen should be cleaned at each oil change. Of course with in frame filter, you're cleaning sump plate during filter change

I still recommend 1500 mile oil changes, even though visually the oil looks cleaner about twice as long. After working with both in frame & spin on filters, the cleaning of oil is exactly the same with either. I'm using a Motoa filter in my '73 Tiger because I didn't want to add anything else to bike as I used to show it. Since I'd clean the screen anyway, was no advantage to use spin on in my case.

The filter that you purchased from Goff that I see on website is commonly called a "Norton" filter. They work quite well. A few things. If you have later frame, you have the option of mounting to backbone behind transmission using a 3" "muffler" clamp. You'll have to drill clamp for oil filter mounting holes. Use blue 242/243 on mounting bolts. The L bracket shown on web page in my mind is not strong enough unless you use additional lower support as Norton did. Was basically a sheet metal bracket that went alongside of filter & a metal hose clamp, secured filter to bracket. Also kept if from spinning loose, but I've never heard of one unscrewing on a Triumph ever. I have seen too weak of bracket fracture & filter fell back & tangled into rear wheel.

Some sellers suggest the feed pipes on the spin on housing are 5/16". Every one I've ever seen is actually 3/8" as that is what Norton return hose was. However.... 5/16 return hose on your bike will most often be able to stretch over the 3/8" nipples. But... make sure end of nipples are very smooth with no burrs so you don't peel rubber from inside of hose. I like Gates automatic transmission hose. It most closely replicates original Triumph oil hose. But Gates fuel injection hose is very similar. Gates carb/evap hose is a weaker version with less reinforcing thread. Many use the carb/evap successfully for oil lines. I've never seen a failure from any of these. Most auto parts stores sells all these on bulk. You must ask. Gates carb/evap is my go to hose for fuel line. Stays flexible & lasts good.

Most the Norton type filters are an odd thread filter. There are adaptor threads to use more common filters. Our own Codeman. found a Napa Auto parts filter. Often needs special order, but good quality & price for folks in USA. This filter fits the Norton housing threads, so no need to modify housing.

All the spin on filters have an internal bypass valve so clogging or cold thick oil is allowed to pass through. I've done some testing, the filters can pass way more oil than the pump volume, even cold.

So no matter in frame or spin on, using a filter is a good idea in my mind. Still I don't know if it makes motor last longer in real life. I simply don't have the experience to observe that. Every motorcycle made now has a real filter & I think it's good for old ones too.
Don
 

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I can then offer it up before I have the frame blasted and powder coated
Hi Andy,
I did not realise that you intended to have the frame blasted, this poses a dilemma.
Blasting the frame on oif bikes often causes a problem further down the line. The blasting media gets inside the frame and it is very difficult to remove all of it before reassembly, some grains always seem to lodge inside the frame waiting to be flushed out by the oil. These get in the engine and cause havoc. Embedding themselves in the soft metal of the pistons, big end shells, oil pump body, etc., the blasting grit then acts like a grinder wearing away the bores and crank journals.
Unfortunately the return line filter cleans the oil after it has been around the engine, allowing the blasting grit in.
The feed line filters mounted in the bottom of the frame filters the oil before getting to the engine, in the case of frame refurbishment this is preferable.

You need to be very careful if you are thinking of having the frame grit blasted.

Regards
Peg.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Don: Many thx - lots to think about there, and I will. The cartridge is apparently a Citroen 2CV fitting, so should be readily available here in the UK. And yes, it is the earlier frame with the pipe down the centre of the sump gauze from the top. That explains why the Charlie's kits I looked at won't fit.

Peg: I was aware of the blasting issue, and you have very kindly reinforced that. The frame has to be painted - it's badly worn down to the primer and even bare metal in places. The TOMCC registrar tells me that the frame went to the same Canadian dealer that the Tiger bits did, so it's spent all its life in Canada, and clearly had a hard life - it's not rusty but the paint is very badly worn. It has to come off. AFAIAA there are 5 entry points into the frame: the sump, the feed pipe to the pump (and thx to Don above for clarifying that it's an early 71 frame), the filler hole, the return and the vent up by the headstock. With a bit of effort I hope that I can thoroughly bung these to prevent media ingress. I will use wooden bungs on the pipes and a plywood plate on the sump, all of them with mastic to aid sealing. I intend to flood the frame with paraffin beforehand to try to get as much muck out as possible, then pressure wash the inside as far as I can reach. I'd repeat that after powder coating - but clearly that's more difficult as I don't want to chip the coating.

If you've any other suggestions I'd be most grateful to hear them.

If you have a look at my restoration thread you can see I've already got an oil contamination issue (I think) and I can't repeat that. But, problems have solutions - you just have to find them. As Don says, the frame design means that I need the return line filter - not ideal, but better than nothing as I have now.

https://www.triumphrat.net/members-restoration-and-rebuild-projects/962570-73-tr7rv-in-71-t120r-frame-restoration-2.html#post2004018710
 

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Hi
Depending on the paint already on the frame, it might be possible to remove the original paint chemically and then blast with soda, this is less aggressive medium, so would be a more difficult process to remove paint (hence the chemical strip first).

But crucially, the soda is water soluble and does not leave residual grit that can damage your engine.

You would need to speak to a refinishing expert to confirm, i’m not sure if this is a viable option for use on a frame.

One extra problem that often occurs is residual grease in the swing arm and steering head, even the smallest amount remaining within the bushes/bearings area can melt and leech out when the frame is in the oven, ruining your new paint.

Regards
Peg.

I have just seen your pistons in the link to your other post, it looks like there has been a heat seizure at some time.
I think I might be inclined to clean out the sludge trap while the engine is out.
 

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Hi Andy, I have a few thoughts. Since frame will be stripped is this a time to remove oil tube & weld the hole shut? That allows in frame filter to be use. Peg makes some very good points about anything inside frame, including rust bits that form up in top of frame getting into oil. The in frame filter protects from this. A few use both filters.

With a few modifications the Motao makes a good system. I've no personal experience with Charlie's type, but they both take the same filter element which is from a BSA single. In USA the elements sell for $10.00. The Motao brand element is excellent quality. I don't know what is available in UK. I got my kit from Motao direct. Center stand clearance is the main issue. Depending on frame & stand version the cross brace in stand hits filter, or not. Since you are skilled, you'll find a work around for clearance with either.

More importantly the frame has 2 weak spots. The main concern is the backbone cracking where the swing arm tube is welded in. Very much later Triumph welded support tabs from tube to backbone. This is a perfect time to do this. Do web search on cracked OIF. Search this group also & you will see what I mean. Search eBay or the like for frames of very late years & you'll see how factory did it.

Also the early center stand mounts had a tendency to bend/crack. Soon Triumph welded a support tab to these which cured that. Again search for frame photos. If I get a chance next week I'll photo my frame.
Don
 
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