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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello all,
I've just bought a braided hose kit for the front of my bike from Norman Hyde. It's a single disc UK barred 1979 T140E.
The standard system is:

Master cylinder - short hose - Pressure switch assembly - down to meet the rigid caliper pipe on the fork leg.

This has the connections and length to go straight from the master cylinder to the rigid pipe fork leg connection. So it bypasses the pressure switch assembly. I'm fine with that as it's 2 less connections to worry about, but it does mean that I need a banjo bolt with a built-in pressure switch.

So the question - What threads are in the Lockheed master cylinder and what size bolt do I need? Or indeed, can anyone point me to the right one?

Thanks,
Dan
 

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Hi Dan,

braided hose kit for the front of my bike from Norman Hyde. It's a single disc UK barred 1979 T140E.
it does mean that I need a banjo bolt with a built-in pressure switch.
Ime, contact Norman first; I think you might have been sent the wrong kit.

Because I can tell you for nothing that you'll struggle to fit a banjo bolt to the master cylinder - never mind one with a pressure switch and its associated wiring. Your bike has the same top yoke as the T160; been there, done that, T-shirt's a duster.

This has the connections and length to go straight from the master cylinder to the rigid pipe fork leg connection. So it bypasses the pressure switch assembly. I'm fine with that as it's 2 less connections to worry about,
With respect, this is silly. It leaks now? No? Why would it be any more likely to leak in the future than a banjo bolt bodged in now? The bike has a working, non-leaking pressure switch now but you want to stop using that and bodge another one in somewhere else? :confused:

Otoh, you're ok with retaining "the rigid pipe fork leg connection" at the caliper, which means an additional connection to "worry about"? :confused: again.

From personal, first-hand experience making and fitting braided hoses, I advise:-

. EITHER one single hose from a banjo connection at the master cylinder all the way to the caliper, and put up with the faffing around at the master cylinder that you'll have to do;

. OR:-

.. one braided hose with a straight fitting into the master cylinder and another longer fitting through the top yoke into the standard steel pipes and pressure switch between the yokes;

.. another braided hose from the lower yoke direct to the caliper, dispensing with the slider connection and bracket;

. hose should be plastic-coated, clear or colour of your choice; uncoated braid touching anything else will scrape its way through that anything else; :eek:

. pay any extra for stainless end fittings; I have Goodridge stainless fittings I fitted over thirty years ago that're indistinguishable from brand-new; ask if you want the Goodridge part numbers;

. all hydraulic brake fittings (master cylinder, caliper, pressure switch, original pipes, etc.) on these old heaps are 3/8"UNF.

Hth.

Regards,
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
From personal, first-hand experience making and fitting braided hoses, I advise:-

. EITHER one single hose from a banjo connection at the master cylinder all the way to the caliper, and put up with the faffing around at the master cylinder that you'll have to do;
Hi, thanks for the advice (both). This is what I'm going to do, the hose looks long enough, and the banjo doesn't seem too much bigger, though t'll be a tight fit up against the clocks.
 

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So are you running a switch or not?

I have stainless to yoke, the original plumbing to bottom yoke , stainless to the short pipe (can't remember it's name) by caliper
If you have a 79 then the brake switch terminals are by the switch near the headstock
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
The plan is: Assuming it fits, run one braided hose from master cylinder to caliper. Take care of brake light with a pressure switch banjo bolt at the master cylinder. Accept that it will be a right bastard to fit up against the side of the clocks.
In addition, rebuild master cylinder and caliper with new seals. Possibly new disc. The pads in it are only 50 miles old.
 

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Hi Dan,

Possibly new disc. The pads in it are only 50 miles old.
Be careful what you wish for ... ;)

Measure the existing disc o.d carefully. If it's 10" (254 mm.) be aware that new discs are 250 mm. o.d. (AP 'went metric' about 1980). So you'd need new pads or you have to keep filing off the 2 mm. ridge at the outer edge of each of the existing pads. :(

Just as a matter of interest, why do you think you need a new disc?

Hth.

Regards,
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks for the info, I'll check :) The bike's fresh in from the USA and I think it's been stood a while, so I'm generally refreshing bits as I go along. In this case, the front brake hose is wrecked and leaking, might as well rebuild the master cylinder while I'm working on that particular system and have it apart.
Trying to get the right balance between being thorough and making sensible upgrades and fixing what ain't broke!
 

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I gave up on my originals and replaced them with stainless a few years ago
But refurb is cheaper and more original.

I refurbed my own callipers with stainless Pistons.
I have run stainless hoses for 30 years.

My rear caliper now has a chrome cover that I modified from standard. I think Stewart later pointed out that a trident one fits w/o mods ?
I removed the S bend pipe when doing this so that the hose connects directly to the rear caliper. (Underslung)

Again, more money, but I did notice that a guy on eBay sells reconditioned callipers now, with stainless Pistons
But cheaper as DIY.
 

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Hi Dan,

The bike's fresh in from the USA
Trying to get the right balance between being thorough and making sensible upgrades and fixing what ain't broke!
the front brake hose is wrecked and leaking, might as well rebuild the master cylinder
AP Racing - who are the bit of AP that has what knowledge there still is within AP about these brakes - advise that the rubber hoses should be renewed at no longer than ten-year intervals, so you need to do the back one too.

Upgrading to braided hose gets rid of that time limitation.

At the rear of my T160's, I got rid of the Heath Robinson mix of steel and rubber pipes for a single piece of braided hose straight from master cylinder to caliper. I also incorporated an hydraulic brake lamp pressure switch so I could dump the Mickey-Mouse standard one.

One T160 has an alloy caliper at the rear to match the front ones but the other one still has the original standard steel caliper and chromed cover. So I could refit the cover, I just used a different fitting on the end of the hose (the obvious banjo and bolt doesn't allow the cover to be refitted without modification).

When you're changing the hoses, as you say, you might as well open up the master cylinder and redo the seals.

You also might as well/need to do the caliper ... When you're in the caliper, you might as well change the pistons for stainless or anodised alloy (saves a bit of unsprung weight ;)) ... Like Dave, when I'm going to use stainless pistons, I have 'em turned from a bit of round bar; as he's posted, cheaper than buying 'em.

Discs - unless the braking surfaces are worn thinner than 3/16" between or are pitted badly enough that water could become trapped in the pits - I just have blasted, spray with matt Hammerite/Smoothrite in colour choice and have the braking surfaces skimmed to remove the paint and any chrome.

Finally, when I've had a complete brake system apart/renewed, I refill with DOT5 fluid. All sorts of dire predictions of plague and pestilence on the www but, in thirty-four years of using it, I've never experienced any of it, nor do I know anyone first-hand who does and has either. Otoh, I have had thirty-four years of not titting about with brakes every year or two (max.) worrying whether I've got every last bit of old fluid and water (that will be mixed in) out. Cue ... nay-sayers. :rolleyes:

Hth.

Regards,
 

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I can tell you for nothing that you'll struggle to fit a banjo bolt to the master cylinder - never mind one with a pressure switch and its associated wiring.
Perhaps I've misunderstood Stuart, but it's perfectly feasible to fit a banjo bolt to the master cylinder:



It's also OK to use the original solid pipe that connects to the calliper:



This was a previous setup that I had, which has now changed to a single line between the master cylinder (from a Street Triple) and calliper:









Note that I had to use two copper washers between the banjo and the calliper, so that the banjo didn't foul on the calliper.
 

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Hi,

Because I can tell you for nothing that you'll struggle to fit a banjo bolt to the master cylinder - never mind one with a pressure switch and its associated wiring.
Perhaps I've misunderstood
Perhaps. Dan posted:-

UK barred
I need a banjo bolt with a built-in pressure switch.
The 'bars in your picture aren't UK 'bars. And the banjo in your picture doesn't have a pressure switch.

It's also OK to use the original solid pipe that connects to the calliper
If you re-read Dan's original post, he was bypassing the original pressure switch to reduce the number of connections he had to "worry about". The point I made is it isn't logical to reduce the number of connections with a long single hose, then make two connections only a few inches apart where only one connection - to the caliper itself - is absolutely necessary.

Hth.

Regards,
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Update: I hate this job!
Anyway - the hose IS long enough to go from the master cylinder to the caller in one go. In fact I'm pretty sure that was the intention of the kit. So I've done that, got my banjo bolt an the bloomin' wire snapped off! Also there is no way on God's earth that master cylinder is coming apart, so that's gone back on as is. I got the wee Allen key thing of, then I just couldn't get the body to unscrew. Though I've had the reservoir off and given it a good clean. I'm hoping I've managed to fix the switch, but I'd say it's a 50/50 chance.
 

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Hi Dan,

there is no way on God's earth that master cylinder is coming apart, so that's gone back on as is.
:hmmmmm Have to say, you have weird priorities ... on one hand, you "worry about" pipe connections that might leak but aren't 'cos you can see 'em not leaking; otoh, you're apparently completely unfazed by a master cylinder that could be leaking from a place you can't see? You can't get it apart and you post you're using it as-is, rather than asking for suggestions how you get it apart?

With respect, here's a reality check:-

. It's a 37-year-old motorcycle that you have no idea when any maintenance was last done on the brakes (you know, the things that stop you crashing into other things on the road). The master cylinder/caliper maker is in this country; ring up AP Racing (despite the name, the repository within the company of information on these brakes) and ask if they'd recommend using brake equipment that hasn't been maintained for thirty-seven years?

. "I've had the reservoir off and given it a good clean". Oh whoop-de-do. If the reservoir needed "a good clean", what on earth suggests to you the master cylinder (you know, the bit that actually works the bit that stops you crashing into other things on the road) isn't in even greater need of an equally-good clean? :Huh

. Ime, one of the reasons "that master cylinder" isn't "coming apart" is brake fluid leaking from the operating end (the bit you can't see) is causing corrosion between the plated steel cylinder and the aluminium alloy mounting casting.

. Even if the corrosion at the front master cylinder isn't caused by leaking brake fluid, if the 37-year-old front master cylinder won't just unscrew, you can cast-iron-guarantee neither will the rear one unless someone was there before you and did things like grease the cylinder threads.

. So, if you find you can't just unscrew both master cylinders, you aren't going to "worry about" it?

For the record, if you well-clamp a master cylinder mounting in a vice with soft jaws, apply penetrating oil to the cylinder/mounting joint and heat to the mounting casting by the joint, attempt to unscrew the cylinder with a good-quality, well-fitting 12"+ adjustable spanner and it still won't undo, find a local engineering company that does "spark erosion" and ask to leave the assembly in their dunk tank overnight. Thus far, I've yet to encounter a reusable Triumph/Lockheed master cylinder assembly that can resist.

Hth.

Regards,
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
or buy a stainless one
Hi Dave, That's the plan. The hose was leaking, so I've replaced that - one stainless hose from master cylinder to caliper. The master cylinder currently works, I just thought while I've got the brakes apart it was worth having a go at a refurb.
Later in the year I'll be doing some more work in that area so I can do it then.

Stuart - I maybe shouldn't have said "worry about" before. I'm not that concerned about number of connections. It was more that the kit I'd been supplied seemed like a different solution to the factory one. Albeit with less joints. My main concern was that the hose was leaking, which is now replaced. Thank you for the advice though, I appreciate it.
 

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i'm a bit late, but i've solved a banjo issue recently.

i wanted a front disc brake on my 65 T120 frame, so i used a trident lower triple clamp and a 1970s TR7 front end, disc, and caliper setup. bought an oriental master cylinder/lever assembly off eBay.



^^^the master cylinder assembly bolted right on. but it was metric-- 10mm banjo bolts. i located 10mm banjos from american hot rod company-- speedway? summit? i can't remember-- that converted the line to an american AN3 hose end.



^^^ the banjos were available in straight, 90, and 45 degrees. i used a 45, and it was a perfect fit. the steel braided line was about ten dollars, US, and came in a 24-inch length with AN3 swivels on both ends.



i bought a simple 3/8-24TPI to AN3 nipple from pegasus for about five bucks. this connected the lockheed caliper to the AN3 steel hose.



you have to use a copper washer in the lockheed connection, easy find.



the end result is a functional disc brake using ordinary lockheed components on the wheel, an AN3 stainless braided hose with no connections except at each end, and the oriental lever/master cylinder setup.

lever assembly was about US$35, hose was about US$9, fittings were about US$10, and the stuff i bought by mistake and didn't need was about US$25.

seems good so far. haven't tested it on the road.

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/advcat.asp?CategoryID=MAIN

http://www.speedwaymotors.com?gclid=CMegpZv4h80CFQkfhgodTFoFkg

http://www.summitracing.com?gclid=CJuzlqz4h80CFQIfhgodCaQN7A
 
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