Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I am cleaning up the rear end of the bike I bought this spring, and on disassembly the placement of washers and spacers made me doubt whether the rear wheel was properly installed.

I have not been able to find a workshop manual covering the 1979 T140D Bonneville Special, so I am not sure how to install the rear wheel properly.
None of the drawings I have found on the internet offers any help either. This bike has the rear caliper mounted above the brake disk.

I have included three photos. The pic of the sprocket side of the wheel shows the spacer that goes into the speedo drive. The pic of the brake side has the spacer next to the bearing removed (it is found on the rear axle, see the third pic).

Please see the pic showing the rear axle. Item 1 is the speedo gearbox, 2 is the spacer that goes next to the right side bearing, 3 is the caliper mount, 4 is a spacer I am not sure of. The size of it doesn't seem to fit anywhere I can figure out.

Could someone please explain how this goes together?

Thanks, Helge.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for the reply. I take it then, that the washer (4) goes between the caliper mount and the adjuster.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
6,299 Posts
Hi Helge,

I have not been able to find a workshop manual covering the 1979 T140D Bonneville Special,
You won't. The T140D was produced in small numbers for only two years ('79 and '80) and does not differ much from the other versions produced in those years, certainly not enough to justify its own workshop manual.

The D's different parts are listed in appendices to the '79 and '80 parts books. The main thing to remember is, if a part is not listed in a special appendix, check the corresponding (in this case rear wheel) illustration and listing in the main part of the book.

washer (4) goes between the caliper mount and the adjuster.
No "Washer" is listed between caliper mount and adjuster in T140D appendices, nor is one illustrated or listed in '79 or '80 rear wheel pages applying to other versions in the same years.

A washer between caliper mount and adjuster would not serve any useful purpose - a washer is usually fitted between two parts that would otherwise rotate against one another; the caliper mount and the adjuster do not. And, as the caliper mount casting is wider specifically around its axle fitting, in my humble opinion rules out the "washer" is a spacer, unless it has been added by a previous owner because other parts - caliper and disc? - did not align?

Washer (4) looks like 83-2266 that should fit between chain adjuster and "Spindle nut".

Hope this helps.

Regards,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
I think I get the logic now.

The size of the washer (believed by me to be a spacer) didn't seem right to sit between the caliper mount and adjuster, which is where I found it.

The illustration linked to in post #4 shows a washer placed under the spindle nut, and that's where I believe this item should go.

Thank you all for the help.

Helge.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
948 Posts
Hi Heige,

https://partsbooks.britishonly.com/partsbooks/20-10114C.pdf

https://partsbooks.britishonly.com/partsbooks/20-70105C.pdf


I think I might be inclined to Do some trial installations the wheel and see;

First; I would assemble the left side, chain adjuster/speedo drive and spacer (if it is not already in the wheel) Push the spindle through and press thewheel hard to the left by hand. I would then check carefully for chain alignment.
Second; I would assemble the right spacer (if it is not already in the wheel), Fit the Brake caliper to it’s mounting bracket without pads, fit the bracket on the spindle and check carefully that the caliper is running central to the disc. If the calliper is closer to the outside of the disc than the inside, perhaps the spare spacer/washer was fitted behind the caliper bracket.
If it is OK then I would fit the right chain adjuster, and check if there is a spacer width gap between the right chain adjuster and the caliper bracket, the chances are that it will go in there.
I think I would prefer to have a spacer in there, even if it is not listed in the spares catalogue rather than bending the swing arms together under load from the spindle nut.

The Three critical measurements are spaced out from the left side, sprocket alignment (critical), wheel alignment (desirable) and caliper/brake disc alignment (critical) any distance to the right of the caliper bracket is not so important, any gap just needs to be filled up.

The spacer might have been fitted at the factory to save wasting a swingarm that was built slightly too wide, we just don’t know.

Good luck, it would be good to see some photos of it fully assembled.

Regards
Peg.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,330 Posts
Peg, good point.. I have had my 79 T140D disassembled...The washer there as mentioned and it's not a Triumph washer...Put the rear wheel in the swing arm and with the speedo drive the wheel sprocket lines up with the gear box sprocket..With the caliper bracket in the proper place there was about an 1/8 inch space on right between it and the swingarm adjuster with all the correct parts in place...I believe it never is proper just to "jack" parts to fit , I shim them so it all goes together with a slight push fit...The OP's D may be the same situation...
I can not remember if I checked to see if the rear wheel is slightly offset to clear the master cylinder as some here have said. My bike no longer has the stock rear master so it's on my shop stand... I'll check out the rear wheel fit and alignment tomorrow
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Thanks peg,

The photos show the wheel placed and pushed to the left; with, and without the washer. The left side is well aligned with respect to the sprockets.

Another photo shows the disk inside the caliper. There seems to be acceptable clearance in the narrow slot.

It seems obvious why the whasher was place against the caliper mount, to take up the slack and avoid squeezing the swingarm too much. However, I still have a feeling that the washer belongs to the spindle nut (due to its size and the parts figure in post #4).

Maybe I should just find, or make, another proper washer to fit on the right side of the caliper mount. It is just to much to squeeze, I think, without it (?).

Regards,
Helge.
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
46 Posts
This is exactly why i believe there appears to be handling issues on 79 Models. Mis matched distance and spacers. There doesnt seem to be any Rhyme or reason on what was used on the day.

Looking at the Pictures above and original Pictures posted, Item 2 and 4 ( first pictures), it appears it has been packed out with washer 4. looking at it , If everything else is aligned ( As Peg said) from left to right then it will either need more washers or wider Spacer part 37-7091. I would check to see if years before were wider or not and compatable.

Interesting to see what Trucked up comes up with.

Dealing with same issue when I get of ship. Have ordered the parts as per 80's and not 79 as suggested to see if this will sort out same issues.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,330 Posts
Well this is what Truckedup came up today....1979 T140D that appears to never have been crashed....I adjust the rear axle off the swing arm pivot as I always do because I see no other way to do it accurately...A length of straight electrical conduit set up as seen. I went from side to side several times to get the front wheel straight ahead.Measurements done with a caliper off the wheel rim. I swapped a 95 Honda 750 VFR onto theis bike, the stock Triumph wheel was retained and is directly centered on the steering stem.. A replica Veglia speedo drive, all stock spacers and adjusters in place...
My final answer on this is seen in the photos...The caliper backet is spaced as it should with the disc running in the middle off the caliper slot..You can see the washer added to give a nice fit...The rear wheel is offset to the left about 1/16 inch....Doesn't matter what Triumph says, we got two bikes here the same....
EDIT...I misprinted...the wheel is offset to the left 3/8 inch...I think that too much and some complain of a slight wandering at higher speeds on smooth pavement with T140D's...Might be the offset...





 

·
Registered
Joined
·
948 Posts
Hi Helge,
That is a lot of space to squeeze together, even with the washer in. The trouble is that you don’t know if you are pulling in the left or right side arm of the fork or even both sides. If you pull in the left side at all, then the chain alignment goes out. I think I would make a spacer that is an exact fit for the gap.
If I was feeling extravagant I might buy a pair of stainless steel chain adjusters, make a stainless steel spacer and then weld it to one of the chain adjusters, therefore avoiding the heartache caused by trying to squeeze a separate spacer into the gap while fitting the spindle; If you have tried it, you will know what I mean.
———————————————————————————————————————————
I think that a wider 37-7091 spacer might disrupt the caliper/disc (rotor) relationship.

I believe the 1980 T140 Swingarm was different to the 79 swingarm.

Regards
Peg.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Thanks Peg,

I think I'll go with making a new spacer that fits the gap. Then I can put the washer where I believe it belongs, under the spindle nut.

Regards,
Helge.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
6,299 Posts
Hi Heige,

trial installations the wheel and see;
While I do not disagree with the principle in Peg's advice, it assumes that the ends of the swinging arm do not move apart when the spindle nut is unscrewed so, when you measure the three alignments (sprockets, wheels and disc/caliper), if you believe your bike has a 'gap' that requires an unlisted spacer, in fact the 'gap' is simply as a result of the ends of the two individual 'arms' of the swinging arm moving apart when the spindle nut is unscrewed. :(

I suspect it will be difficult to be sure the ends of the swinging arm are not moving apart when the spindle nut is unscrewed :( - the distance between the ends might be the same as a standard T140/TR7 swinging arm but the '79 T140D swinging arm is unique - not the same (part number) as either the arm on other '79 twins or the '80 arm (which appears to the be the same part on all '80 twins).

When I was fitting alloy wheels from a twin into one of my T160's, I knew the rear would require a spacer as the twins' swinging arm is narrower than the triples'. While I had been given a spacer thickness by the wheels' seller, I also double-checked using similar methods to Peg's and a stack of washers. However, I discovered that simply "Fit the Brake caliper to it’s mounting bracket without pads, fit the bracket on the spindle and check carefully that the caliper is running central to the disc" is not enough to be certain "the caliper is running central to the disc" - believing I had "a spacer width gap" in the T160's case between the the caliper bracket and the wheel, I filled it with washers but also checked by tightening the spindle nut on the spindle and then releasing the caliper mounting bracket's pivot bolts on the swinging arm. The caliper mounting bracket is longer horizontally than just the caliper and, while the caliper had appeared to be "running central to the disc", releasing the caliper mounting bracket's pivot bolts on the swinging arm showed the bracket wasn't aligned with the swinging arm. :(

The solution was to remove one or two of the 'spacer washers', this allowed the spindle and nut to squeeze the swinging arm ends slightly closer together (around 1/16-to-3/32 of an inch) and align the caliper and mounting bracket with both the disc and the swinging arm. Subsequently, I was able to obtain the correct dimension between the ends of T160 swinging arms, and the knowledge that the ends are not always the 'correct' distance apart when not tightened by the spindle and nut around wheel, caliper mounting bracket, speedo. drive, chain adjusters, etc.

It seems obvious why the whasher was place against the caliper mount, to take up the slack and avoid squeezing the swingarm too much. Maybe I should just find, or make, another proper washer to fit on the right side of the caliper mount.
Your T140D has a different caliper mounting bracket and method of securing it to the swinging arm from a T160. Absent being sure that the distance between the ends of your bike's swinging arm remains correct even when not tightened by the spindle and nut around wheel, caliper mounting bracket, speedo. drive, chain adjusters, etc., maybe first fill the "gap" with standard washers, tighten spindle and nut then release the "Brake Torque Stay" from the swinging arm and see if the Stay end and arm bracket remain aligned?

I still have a feeling that the washer belongs to the spindle nut (due to its size and the parts figure in post #4).
The standard 83-2266 washer that fits between the spindle nut and the timing-side chain adjuster is only 1 inch OD, smaller than either a standard 5/8" ID washer or the OD of the chain adjuster around the Spindle.

If I was feeling extravagant I might buy a pair of stainless steel chain adjusters, make a stainless steel spacer and then weld it to one of the chain adjusters
Depending on the thickness of any required spacer, T160 drive-side chain adjuster has a spacer attached ...

I believe the 1980 T140 Swingarm was different to the 79 swingarm.
If the parts books are correct, all '80 twins (including the T140D) used the same swinging arm and caliper mounting; otoh, '79 twins except the T140D still used the underslung caliper (unless the change was made on all twins during '79?); however, '80 swinging arm and overslung caliper mounting are not the same parts as '79 T140D swinging arm and overslung caliper mounting ...

Hope this helps.

Regards,
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
6,299 Posts
Hi Tony,

1979 T140D that appears to never have been crashed...
caliper backet is spaced as it should with the disc running in the middle off the caliper slot..You can see the washer added to give a nice fit...
Doesn't matter what Triumph says, we got two bikes here the same...
Mmmm ... having looked harder at the details, caliper mounting brackets in the '79 T140D supplement and '80 parts book are different part numbers, does anyone know why? Or, if it makes a difference, when Meriden actually started using the later bracket?

rear wheel is offset to the left
3/8 inch...I think that too much
:nod Not for master cylinder clearance, given the ally and spoked rim widths are the same?

Regards,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Thanks Stuart,

Just measured the washer in question, it is 1" in diameter, and obviously appears alien when placed between adjuster and caliper mount.

I wish I knew what the correct distance between the left and right arms should be when everything is tightened up... possibly no one knows.

I'll go with filling the free space gently between caliper mount and adjuster, tighten up, and then check all alignments.
Hoping this will guide me to the correct width of a gap filling spacer. At first glance it just doesn't feel right to tighten up without anything in the gap.

Regards,
Helge.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,330 Posts
Hi Tony,


Mmmm ... having looked harder at the details, caliper mounting brackets in the '79 T140D supplement and '80 parts book are different part numbers, does anyone know why? Or, if it makes a difference, when Meriden actually started using the later bracket?


:nod Not for master cylinder clearance, given the ally and spoked rim widths are the same?

Regards,
Actually I made another mistake in printing, damn I'm dumb sometimes... It's3/8 inch off set to the right of center not to the left....The Lestor cast wheels one size larger from and rear than the spoked wheels but this had no effect on the rim centerline offset..
Unless you have measured the bike in question , I am the holder of the facts :wink2:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,330 Posts
Hmmm,something strange is going on with the measurements I found...I will look into more and report back...
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
6,299 Posts
Hi Tony,

The Lestor cast wheels one size larger from and rear than the spoked wheels
2.50 (WM4 equivalent) rear?

this had no effect on the rim centerline offset.
:nod I mentioned it only because there was earlier mention of the wheel possibly being offset deliberately to clear the master cylinder.

Regards,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,330 Posts
Hi Tony,


2.50 (WM4 equivalent) rear?


:nod I mentioned it only because there was earlier mention of the wheel possibly being offset deliberately to clear the master cylinder.

Regards,
Yes and 2.15 front.....I always heard the wheel was offset.....I think what I find on my bike is not typical and may have no relation to the OP's bike...
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top