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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
This forum keeps spirits up, Peter. Been reading it for months. By the time/if this project is finished I'll perhaps be able to chip in with advice. Or I'll be a broken person.
Anyway, taking DMadigan's advice. Will put cylinder block on timbers on crankcase and leave strapped to frame and carry on jiggling.
Need to buy socket to fit alternator nut, so it'll be a few days before any more progess
 

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Hi Alex, More good news! The rods don't look corroded. Wrap & protect them carefully from any dents or dings. The rods don't have bushings at top, but last well. We don't know how they will be until removed, but they are costly. Hopefully wrist pins will come out once pistons are removed. Can you take a wire brush or the like & clean piston bottom so chips don't ball up & add to the binding?

The dowel bushings around the left studs are slip fit into case. Usually gently grabbing with pliers, slip right out. Even finger pulling will remove many.

I'd mark & remove tappets now if you have room. Looks like you do?

Did you find info on specific penetrants or chemicals that might release head studs on web search?

Getting head off first, would be an advantage I'd agree with that 100%
Don
 

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Good progress, well done.
I once disassembled an early Audi quattro engine that had had a fire under the bonnet then been left for a couple of years. All sorts of melted stuff and coolant got sucked into the engine when it caught fire. I had to use a sledgehammer and an old table leg to get the pistons out after soaking for days with plus gas, thinners and coca cola, they gave in eventually. I was able to re-use the pistons after picking the rings out bit by bit and cleaning the grooves. The rust marks in the bores were removed with a flap wheel on a hand drill. Crank was perfect so we just fitted new rings and shells. That engine ran like a watch for 100,000 miles till I gave it a bit to much boost and holed a piston.

Is there room to screw an ordinary nut onto those two middle studs? If there is you could drill vertically down the thread, half in the nut, half in the stud, with a small drill then tap in a spring pin or something similar to lock the nut to the stud. Much stronger than double-nut or locktite. Then softly, softly try to turn it back and forth. You need to be getting the penetrating fluid down the hole in the head that the stud goes through, just keep dribbling it on that area and it should eventually wick in.
ATF and thinners or petrol mixed 50/50 is supposed to be very good and much better than most stuff in a can like WD40.
I’ve found Worth Rostoff to be excellent, it penetrates well and has a freezer in it too, not cheap mind..
 

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Hi Alex,
It’s good you are getting results. I would have a mind to get those pistons out first, once they are out of the way you then open up new options to deal with the head stud problem.

One thing that Don touched on was the cam followers, in most cases they would have fallen out by now, and you would have been in trouble, but luckily they are stuck in the barrel tappet blocks. The inlet and exhaust are different so must not be mixed up and importantly they need to go back into the same hole the same way round. Either hold them in the tappet block somehow so they don’t fall out, or mark them carefully as to position and direction.
Hopefully you already have the pushrods marked for position and way up.

Now you can see the bottom of the pistons, it should be possible to squirt release fluid up from underneath.
I expect you should be able to get rid of quite a lot of that debris from the piston skirt. There should be at least a 4 thou gap between the piston and skirt.

Previously you measured 13 cm down the plug hole to the piston, it might be nice to know if that distance has increased-have the pistons moved?

I can see a 3/4" to 1" gap between the cylinder and frame, can you tighten those ratchet straps any more to take that up, the crank is not quite at tdc.
now you know where the pistons are and have access, it is possible to carefully heat the bottom of the barrel to assist removal.

I would try first pulling the ratchet straps tight, then backing off the tension. If you then straddle the frame, you can grab the cylinder head on each side and try rocking the barrel on the pistons up and down alternating left and right.
If you get movement then you could try to pull the crankshaft down and ratchet the barrel up, hopefully the pistons will pop out.

The pistons can then be removed from the connecting rods, once the circlips are out, you will need to heat the pistons to 100deg C to pust the gudgeon (wrist) pin out.

With the pistons out of the way you can then tackle the head.
The head will be seized on the stud, so you could put the nuts half on, turn the barrel upside down with the nuts on a block, then with hammer on a length of wood inside the cylinder bore and resting on the head (2 man job). Better if you can use a hydraulic press.

Or you could bolt the barrels on to the crankases, grab the head and twist sideways back and forth, trying to free the studs.

Or you could place the barrel on a mill and bore down the middle of the studs, so they are a hollow tube. They should collapse down when you pull the head, leave enough stud so you can get an extractor on the stud once the head is removed. If you don’t have a mill a local engineering shop should be able to help. Do not be tempted to drill by hand, the drill will wander off of the hard stud into the soft head, ruining it.

You are getting there, it will soon be apart.
You are right about the forum, someone in the future will have the same problem and you will have a ‘this is what I did’ post for him.

Regards
Peg.
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
Tappets out, some very light corrosion an bottoms. Bottom of pistons cleaned with squirts of WD40, squirted upwards too, to try and clean to underside of rings.
Taken ATF out, replaced with 25%arf/75%petrol as might better penetrate

Sorry, now got a basic question.
The sprocket nut is shallow--is there a risk of rounding this using a breaker bar? If if leave the bent up tab, it's got even less surface for socket. If I bend back tab, might not nut either undo or become over-tightened?
Clutch nut is deeper, but similarly, could undo or be too tightened. And using this nut, is it risking damaging primary chain or gears?
Would carrying on rocking with back wheel be best?
 

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Hi Alex
You will just have to go by feel on the crank , it is very unlikely that you will damage anything in the primary drive. You could pre load with a socket on the crankshaft and rock the back wheel as well.
If you have been making good preparation, you will have already grown an extra arm to make this easier; some people cheat by getting a friend to help😊
You cannot use the nut on the clutch as you need the pressure plate out to access the nut, then the clutch slips rather than applying the load to the primary chain.
The petrol atf mix sounds like a good idea, be careful if you apply any heat.
Regards
Peg.
 
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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
Thanks Peg. Oh, yes, I'm thick--obviously can't use clutch nut as would have pressure plate off!!!
Didn't think about clutch plates now having seperated.
Will order a socket today and a long breaker bar for crank drive.
 

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Just as an aside , the clutch hub is on a taper , so don't over-tighten it in any future endeavours ! Peter
 

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And if you buy a clutch extractor, be aware it's not a puller.
You hand tighten it, then wind up a bit of tension using a spanner, but don't try to use the bolt to pull/push it off.
Whack the bolt with a hammer and the assembly theoretically falls off.....
Theoretically.
 

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Thanks for replies. Can't use grease gun, one valve snapped due to build up of the white corrosion-tapped it try and break some of it away.

I've accepted cylinder barrel needs replacing. The exhaust headers rusted through and debris is in the bores, feel rusted running screw driver down them.

Although badly rusted, there's a few surprises. Although little paint and chrome left, inside of tank is as new. The cylinder bolts I have taken out were not too difficult and without corrosion.

TRV7RVman-the hex bolt extractor sounds hopeful. Do you have a link to one? View attachment 756060
That bike is cool! It would be a shame to repaint it!
 

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Thanks in advance for replies. I'm bringing back a T140 from the grave. It is seriously rusted. Inlet ports blocked from carbs blocked with white substance, aluminium corrosion I think.

Good news is, with heat and penetrating oil so far removed any nuts needed. Have partially stripped spark plug threads, but lucky to get them out.
However, now stuck. The pistons are seized, and cylinder head won't come off. Have raised cylinder block slightly, so crank isn't seized
I've removed all bolts and nuts on cylinder head except two central bolts that had extended hex nuts. Have banged head with mallet, heated with blow torch
Cylinder barrel filled with ATF and acetone, although didn't mix well. Heated barrels until atf is boiling. Wacker with mallet. Put in gear and ticked to and fro
Can't hit pistons directly because head on. Can't raise head using pistons because they are seized. What to do? ATF been in about two weeks
Hi Alex
A very interesting thread this with all manner of lateral thinking and some very good suggestions. After 54 yrs and still going as a m/cycle mech a lot of it working on Triumphs I have several times come across a similar issue with the head resisting all normal practices to break free. However, I have never had one that required my removing the center studs even tho they do appear to be the area causing the problem. We found ways of applying leverage between head and cyl that with the correct width packers between fins to prevent the obvious danger of breaking fins (very easy to do) However I must stress the packers must be a perfect fit with virtually no clearance. The fins will tolerate a small amount of flex without breaking but emphasis on the SMALL AMOUNT. Unless you have access to someone that can machine the surfaces of packers as not all be identical width you will be there a long time with a file. So tho I never had to pull those studs the only thought I can add to the many ideas put forward is maybe scribing a centerline down the outside of the Allen head center bolts to allow a decent center punch mark. Then screw back onto stud all the way down. Next, you need a decent drill and preferably an assistant with a good eye to keep you square as it were in the plane you can't see. The plan is to drill; say a 1/8" or 3.2mm hole about 1/2" up from the base of the nut thru the stud and continue thru other side. As the fins are going to prevent the hole from being level it will be on a slight angle but not a problem. With the line scribed down both sides at 180 deg obviously you want the drill to exit as near as possible to line which will put the hole dead thru the middle of stud. Punch a good quality roll pin right thru. Then with a 1/2" drive well-fitting Allen head socket and a normal length power bar, you should be able to crack it. If it feels really tight try short hard bumps on the bar rather than one continuous pull, more like if u had an impact gun as it were. Anyway not saying I have done it that way but just another possibility. I like Peg's tip with the broom handles in ports. I wondered if you could maybe link the 2 together front and rear and then get a pair of small bottle jacks under them as hydraulics always the best way to get pressure evenly and progressively to force it up. Last thing I noticed you said you hitting studs with a mallet and assume you mean some sort of soft face like a rawhide one or similar. That not what you need to belt them with buddy good solid steel on steel so all the shock goes into it and not mostly absorbed. Best of luck sure you will get there and you learn a heap in the process. Cheers Mick
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
Hi Alex
A very interesting thread this with all manner of lateral thinking and some very good suggestions. After 54 yrs and still going as a m/cycle mech a lot of it working on Triumphs I have several times come across a similar issue with the head resisting all normal practices to break free. However, I have never had one that required my removing the center studs even tho they do appear to be the area causing the problem. We found ways of applying leverage between head and cyl that with the correct width packers between fins to prevent the obvious danger of breaking fins (very easy to do) However I must stress the packers must be a perfect fit with virtually no clearance. The fins will tolerate a small amount of flex without breaking but emphasis on the SMALL AMOUNT. Unless you have access to someone that can machine the surfaces of packers as not all be identical width you will be there a long time with a file. So tho I never had to pull those studs the only thought I can add to the many ideas put forward is maybe scribing a centerline down the outside of the Allen head center bolts to allow a decent center punch mark. Then screw back onto stud all the way down. Next, you need a decent drill and preferably an assistant with a good eye to keep you square as it were in the plane you can't see. The plan is to drill; say a 1/8" or 3.2mm hole about 1/2" up from the base of the nut thru the stud and continue thru other side. As the fins are going to prevent the hole from being level it will be on a slight angle but not a problem. With the line scribed down both sides at 180 deg obviously you want the drill to exit as near as possible to line which will put the hole dead thru the middle of stud. Punch a good quality roll pin right thru. Then with a 1/2" drive well-fitting Allen head socket and a normal length power bar, you should be able to crack it. If it feels really tight try short hard bumps on the bar rather than one continuous pull, more like if u had an impact gun as it were. Anyway not saying I have done it that way but just another possibility. I like Peg's tip with the broom handles in ports. I wondered if you could maybe link the 2 together front and rear and then get a pair of small bottle jacks under them as hydraulics always the best way to get pressure evenly and progressively to force it up. Last thing I noticed you said you hitting studs with a mallet and assume you mean some sort of soft face like a rawhide one or similar. That not what you need to belt them with buddy good solid steel on steel so all the shock goes into it and not mostly absorbed. Best of luck sure you will get there and you learn a heap in the process. Cheers Mick
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
Not yet Hooli...

And thanks for advice Mick. Putting spacers between fins with my inexperience sounds risky. I did drill through a hex nut and pinned--it snapped clean in half when I tried to undo. Waiting for the JB Weld to arrive, I'll try 'welding' a nut on.
Have now remove ATF and petrol from cylinders. Pressure washers with degreaser through plug holes--a lot of debris came out. One cylinder has always slowly dripped through crankcase (gasket rotted away, so I know). Other cylinder I filled with vinegar for two days. Both then had some acf-50 for couple of days, now some Plus Gas. Used lots of heat. Still stuck, will be using crankshaft nut and back wheel together next, as Peg suggested.
Some good news--took timing side covers off, excellent condition. Might be time to confess--I've nver seen inside an engine before...
Bike although badly rusted has only 11,000 miles. Just below timing pinion, you can see an indentation--this is where an aluminum strap caused severe rusting.
zz.jpg
 

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Just another thought - if you have a piece of metal that will wedge between the top of the base studs and the bottom of the cylinder base flange, you will be able to jack the barrel off the piston using the base nuts, doing it a bit at a time on each side. I'm lucky, I've got lots of scrap metal around to use as stock.
 

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Discussion Starter · #57 ·
I'm using Mick's suggestion of a jack, in front. Afraid of breaking crankcase, so no jack on back. Under a lot of pressure now, afraid to go further in case fracture head at ports
Heated cylinder to high temperature...
IMG_20210608_122811762_HDR.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter · #58 ·
Bought a snake camera for mobile phone. Shot of piston head. Poor quality image...
That silver disk is a snapped off valve.
2021-06-08-12-43-01.png
2021-06-08-12-45-16.png
 

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To continue along the path you're on , do you have some good ratchet straps ? A couple of wooden plugs in the intakes and the straps attached to the top frame rail
may increase your chance of getting it more apart . This is fun to watch :) . Peter
 

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Discussion Starter · #60 ·
Ok, done that, Peter. Can further tighten ratchet straps by tightening base nuts. I'll leave this a couple of days, tighten as and when.
I can see it's a copper head gasket, no silicon squeezed out
IMG_20210608_183507432~2.jpg
.
 
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