[dhowlan]

Hello,

I posted most of this in the new member section yesterday, but I'm guessing it will get more views in this section.

I have just been given (yes, given, but there's more to it than that) a 1969 T100R. It's been sitting for over 20 years. You know that saying, "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth."? Yeah, it's like that. The more I look at it the more i wonder if it was really a good idea to say, "If you are just going to give it away, I'd be happy to have it."

It was parked because the kickstarter does nothing. Whether that was due to the engine seizing up or who knows what else, I have no idea. It's still sitting in the guys garage and I'm walking it over to my garage later today, so I'll have more info on that later.

The big question is how much should i plan on r&r ing? The tires are shot. The battery is of course toast. The carbs I think were put away wet. Well everything was put away wet afaik. The gators on the front suspension have had it. It's leaking something under the engine which may be fuel or oil or both. Again, I'll know more later. If this was your bike, would you do the minimum to get it running or would you dismantle most of it and make it like newish? I'm usually a fix it not show it person, but the perishables worry me and i'm not sure which perishable should be the most worrying as I've never dealt with a triumph engine.

New stuff: Since posting that, I've got the bike home. I should point out that we live in a particularly corrosive area. All the chrome is pitted. All of it. The bike has less than 1200 miles. The odometer is quite the contrast to the general state of things. The face of the gauges look brand new, the bezel looks 50 years old.

I've pretty much decided to "just" fix things. It will never be perfect. Besides the corrosion, the tank has a small dent. The battery is not there and the strap fell to bits when i picked it up. The rear tail light plastic has a hole in it. The throttle cables don't move. The fork seals are definitely leaking. The front fender is gone. For some reason, a previous purging of the previous owners garage resulted in the fender being discarded. What the hell? Front brake works and I confirmed it shifts through all gears on the stand. Also on the plus side, the seat is perfect.

I'm going to start this adventure by addressing the cause of all this neglect, the disconnect between the start lever and the engine. I have both the online service manual and a pristine Haynes manual. After reading through both, I believe i need to remove the outer cover and the inner cover on the right side and then remove the clutch on the left side to get to the start lever problem. Correct? Any suggestions from experienced folk would be much appreciated here.

Hopefully that all doesn't sound too negative. I'm excited as hell to get it going.

Thanks for any input,
Daryl

 

[wol]

Hi - Welcome to the forum -- free bike - you are very lucky
When you say the kick start does nothing - is it seized as so does not move at all - or does it move but does not appear to engage anything in the engine ? -- let us know ,then this forum can start to advise on the best initial steps to take
before you start dismantling take pics of everything - it will be easier to replace things later when you have forgotten how it was
and dont throw anything away -- spray all fixing with penetration oil or WD40 or similar
some pics of the bike as it is would be good

 

[dhowlan]

The kick start just rotates with no resistance, like it's not engaging anything. I was surprised by how free moving it is.

And yes, took some pics more. I have a mind like a sieve, so i always try to have a way to see where things went.

Thanks.

 

[wol]

like you said - start by removing the right side outer cover - this will get you to the kick start mechanism and is a good place to start to find the problem - at this stage i would not remove the inner gearbox cover - taking the primary /left side cover off could be more informative
as a matter of interest -does the engine turn over ? -- remove the spark plugs engage a gear and wheel the bike forward if the engine is free and the clutch assy is OK it should turn the engine (squirt some oil into the bores first)
from the pics its looks to me that a lot of the chrome could be polished up to a reasonable condition

 

[Andytheflyer]

Welcome to the forum - there is a vast supply of experience and expertise available here.

I've just restored a 72 T100R from a fully-dismantled basket case. In 68 (IIRC) they improved the crank bearings and you have the last version of the 500 engine, AIUI. These are good bikes, and if that 1200 miles is genuine, it's done nothing. Look at that footpeg rubber - there's no wear on it at all. From the photo it looks like it can easily be made to look good again. The chrome looks like it will polish - but not sure that muffler is original.

The k/s pawl may simply be gummed up with thick oil - it rotates on a shaft and may be stuck in the disengaged position. That outer cover comes off easily - just make sure you have the right sized screwdriver - they are Pozidriv I think - not Philips. Mine are all Allen head now.

Think positive here - you could have a real gem on your hands.

I'd have that outer gearbox cover off and find out what's wrong with the k/s first. Sort that so it will kick over. Then change the engine and gearbox oil, and drain the primary. Carbs off and a thorough clean, particularly the pilot jet passageways as these are very prone to blockage. Cables off and soak in paraffin (kerosene) to see if you can get them to move first - but you'll need to replace them eventually. For now, the objective is just to see if it will run. Fresh battery and see if you can get a spark - is it still on points or now electronic ignition?

Once you've got a spark, rig up a temporary fuel bottle and get some fresh gas in it. Kick it over and see if you can get it to run. If it will run, make sure oil is circulating - check the return to the tank. If you can get to that stage, then it's time to get it ready to ride - maybe tyres and tubes, lube the chain, get the brakes to work. Then gently try it out and see how it rides. Once it runs reliably, put some miles on it before you think about what to do next.

All of the above sounds simple - but there are a good few hours of fettling and lots of careful checking before you can think about starting it. Loads of advice on here about how to achieve that. Don't rush it or you could do a lot of damage to an engine standing that long.

This is what can be done - I started with several boxes of rusty or corroded metal, and I'm no expert:

 

[dhowlan]

The k/s pawl may simply be gummed up with thick oil - it rotates on a shaft and may be stuck in the disengaged position. That outer cover comes off easily - just make sure you have the right sized screwdriver - they are Pozidriv I think - not Philips. Mine are all Allen head now.

That is a lovely possibility. Everything else is gummed up. Actually, the whole post is inspirational. One step at a time.

And thanks for the Pozidriv info. I'll double check. Those screws do worry me a little. I'm not removing everything until i have a clear plan (and the right screwdriver-I had one that i swear was the right size, but my sister "borrowed" it about 20 years ago). I might have to buy a new tool.

 

[Andytheflyer]

Get the correct screwdriver. Then, when you try to remove a screw, locate the screwdriver in the head, then give the end of the screwdriver a few sharp hits with a hammer. That helps to break the thread bond in the cases. Then try to undo the screw.

Pozidriv screw heads are marked with a little line in between each of the 4 slots in the head. Philips heads don't have those little lines between the slots. Can't go and look because I've changed all of mine!

Failing that, get an impact screwdriver - they are not expensive, and are made for just this job. They normally come with a selection of bits so you can choose the correct one.

Keep us posted - keen to hear how you get on with this one.

 

[DAVE M]

Have you had a British bike before?
You're not pulling in the clutch when kickstarting?

 

[dhowlan]

I found a bit that's correct and broke free the top two screws with that and a ratchet so should be ok. I will drain the oil and remove that cover when i have more time than i do today.

As to the other questions, no, I haven't had a British bike before. Also no, not pulling in the clutch when depressing the start lever.

 

[Rancidpegwoman]

Hi Dhowlan,
What a wonderful find and at just the right price. From your photo, 1200miles might just be True, the frame paint looks good and the engine cases look unmolested, the screws and nuts look like they have never seen a mechanics screwdriver or spanner, the footrests look unworn.

I suggest before you start you make the decision of what you want to be the final outcome. Do you want to bring the bike back to original showroom condition, or do you want to clean her up, replace the parts that impair function and have a bike showing some of the age patina of a 69 Triumph.
Neither is the wrong decision, final value will be surprisingly similar, but the amount of work and costs will be substantially different.

Firstly on your kickstarter problem, there are two options:
a) The kickstarter is not engaging.
b) The kicstarter is engaging but the force is not being transmitted to the engine.

As you have already indicated you can engage the gears, so it is then easy to determine if you have scenario a) or scenario b)

First place the bike on the centre stand, then engage any gear. apply a small amount of rear brake or get someone to hold the rear wheel, this will overcome any friction that might give you a false reading.
Operate the kickstarter.
If the rear wheel turns then you have scenario b)
if the wheel does not turn you have scenario a)

In the case of a) remove the gearbox outer cover on the right side of the bike, the kickstarter engagement mechanism is inside.
In the case of b) the problem lies within the primary cover on the left of the bike, the most likely cause being the woodruff key that locks the clutch on the gearbox shaft being broken.
In either case, it is not likely to be difficult or expensive to fix.

good luck
Regards
Peg.

 

[dhowlan]

Thanks for your suggestion. The wheel does not turn in this test and so it seems to be scenario a).

Also, not really related, but made me feel good, in 4th gear I am able to get the engine to turn (didn't have to pull the plugs) so it's not seized. I connected my spare battery and the headlight is dodgy on the low beam and off on the high beam. Gauge lights work and the back light works for running and brakes both front and rear. Also, the horn works. I used to work at a dealership and had to do those verification forms the dmv makes you fill out so I know the horn is very important.

I took as many pictures of it dirty as I could think to take and then i washed it off. That was kind of cathartic. More pictures later.

Question, I believe i need to drain the oil before I take off the outside cover, but I'm not positive. True? Eventually it's coming out of course, but if i can skip that for the moment it would be nice. I realized today that this is my first dry sump motor. Lots to learn.

Thanks for the assistance.

 

[Rusty1]

Hi Dhowlan,

If you have the online workshop manual then section D1 deals with removing the outer gearbox cover and it recommends the oil is drained first. The gearbox oil and engine oil are separate so you can leave the engine oil for the moment. The drain plug location is shown in the manual and the gearbox capacity is about 300cc so not a huge amount. As with the rest of the fasteners I’d give the drain plug a good soaking with penetrating oil before undoing it.

http://www.classicbike.biz/Triumph/Repair/350-500/63-74-350-500cc-Repair.pdf

I agree with Peg, you may have an absolute gem there, nothing looks butchered. I believe it has K70 tyres fitted which were the OEM fitment, they’re perished but unworn. I’d love to see some more pics.

 

[Andytheflyer]

I agree with Peg, you may have an absolute gem there, nothing looks butchered. I believe it has K70 tyres fitted which were the OEM fitment, they’re perished but unworn. I’d love to see some more pics.

+1 for that. A very good find. Very few left like that now.

The T100R was the ultimate derivative of the Speed Twin, launched in 1938, closely followed by the T100 derivative in 1939. The T100s finally ceased in 1974, and the very last bikes had a front disc brake, but there were only a handful made but never went into production. You should have a twin leading shoe front brake, introduced in 1969 - when set up properly, probably the best drum brake Triumph ever made, it's very good indeed.

They are a very different ride to the bigger 750 Bonneville - the Daytona was known as the 'Baby Bonneville' - whilst the 750 can be a relaxed, torquey ride, the Daytona needs revs and you have to work the gearbox to get it to go - but they really do go over about 4500 rpm. For an unsophisticated engine designed before WW2, that's good going, IMO.

See if you can find a copy of JR Nelson's 1988 book "Tiger 100/Daytona - The Development History of the Pre-unit & Unit Construction 500cc Twins". That gives you a lot of the background to the development of your Daytona. It's long out of print but can be found secondhand.

If you contact the Triumph Motorcycle Owners Club you can ask Richard Wheadon, the Registrar, for a dating certificate if you give him the engine and frame numbers, for a small fee. He will tell you the date of manufacture and where and when it was exported to in the US. He's been very busy recently as a lot of people have been imprisoned in their workshops and wanting dating information, so you might have to wait a bit, but that certificate is worth having.

 

[GrandPaulZ]

The big question is how much should I plan on r&r ing? ...I've pretty much decided to "just" fix things.

Welcome. You've got some good starting info, and you already mentally made the right choice in your above-quoted comments. You'll basically be doing a mechanical refurbishing which will be the least you can spend (more or less) to make a presentable, mechanically sound, regular rider.

(I've started with A LOT WORSE!)

 

[dhowlan]

Again, thank you for all the good vibes. I'm going to drain the gearbox oil and remove the outer cover. At least that's the plan for today. I tried something else earlier in an effort to decipher things. I thought if I could get just the gears moving it might change something in the kickstarter. So i put it in gear and then pulled the clutch and then rotated the wheel. No surprise in retrospect that the clutch seems to be stuck together so made no difference whether the clutch was pulled or not. I'm committed to opening it up so just another data point.

To randomly answer some things. Yes, K70 tires. I kind of like the way they look. Bummer that I won't be able to keep them AND ride the bike.

The person i got it from is the original owner. I have the original receipt. I have zero doubt it's really <1200 miles. After cleaning, it's all shiny and rust. Kinda like diamonds and dust, I guess. The back wheel in particular is craptastic. I will get more pictures posted at some point. Oh wait, i think i have one in here of the tires.

I am using the online manual. It's confusing me slightly as it says supplement to include the 1969, but I'm not sure where the supplement part is or if it's the whole thing. Is the online version adequate or is there a better way to go?

Oh, one question that's floating around in my head. Which oil for the engine, which for the gearbox, and which for the primary. I know what the book says, but what's the modern equivalent? I've always been a fan of Castrol. I need to start a shopping list. Which also reminds me. Who's a good source for Triumph parts? I was looking at ClassicBritishSpares and it seemed fairly comprehensive but that was just what popped up first.

 

[Andytheflyer]

Hi Daryl,

Looking good! You might try some of the paint on-wash off rust eaters that you can get your side of the pond to see what effect it has on the spoke nipples - but try one or 2 first to see if the end result is OK.

Oils: depends on what you have over there, but I put Castrol EP 90 in my gearbox, and an old-spec 20/50 in the engine. The primary is fed from the engine but needs priming with maybe 150ml of engine oil (check the manual for the volume) - but I'd hold off until you've sorted that clutch. The engine oil choice is important, modern oils are no good in this bike. I buy 20/50 formulated for a classic bike engine They don't have the friction improvers or detergents that modern oils have. The clutch runs in engine oil, so the last thing you need is a modern oil with its friction reducer. Similarly, modern oils with detergents would stir up and release old sludges that are hanging around in the engine. That might sound good, but there's no oil filter on this bike so those sludges will circulate and do you no good - so you need to find a 20/50 formulated for use in classic bike engines. Others on here will know what's available in the US. Fitting a filter in due course is something you can do and should consider, there are a couple of options.

You'll need to take the primary cover off to take the clutch plates out and clean them. Getting that cover off means you need to take out the primary chain tensioner, which is tricky as access is poor - there's a cheap tool that goes up in the tensioner hole to unwind the tensioner nut. You can do it with a screwdriver, but it's tricky. There's also a simple tool available for adjusting the nuts that compress the clutch springs - you can do it with a screwdriver, but the tool is only a few $ and makes the job easier - you will need it.

There's a tube set in the crank called a sludge trap. It uses centrifugal force to throw sludges to the side of the tube and it's held there, and accumulates. In an engine that's only done 1200 miles this is probably not relevant and there won't be much sludge trapped in there - you may only need to have that trap cleaned after maybe 30,000 miles. The recommendation not to use a detergent oil really applies to engines with much higher mileages as you don't want to free up that sludge in the trap.

The manual supplement is usually a few pages at the back of the manual. The online manual is what you need, plus a parts book as that gives you exploded diagrams of the parts and helps explain what you are looking at.

There are good parts suppliers in the US, others will advise in due course once they find your thread. Parts are available but the quality is variable - some eBay parts are total rubbish. GrandPaulZ (above) is an authority on parts and oils your side of the pond. He'll advise, I'm sure.

 

[dhowlan]

Thank you.

Update for today. I didn't think getting the headpipe loose would be the hardest part of that. I'm not sure it was necessary, but now i have both muffler thingys off and they are really badly pitted. Good for experimenting with chemicals i think as can't be much worse. And as someone suggested, I don't think they are original. The PO said something like I'm not sure if those are legal. I thought he meant he removed the innards, but looking at the pictures online, I think the thing is aftermarket. Plus, the chrome on that part is way worse than the head part.

Anyway, outer cover is off. Oil that was in there is pristine. Like it isn't black. Minor sludgy at the bottom, but wow, looks new.
<<<<I was going to post a picture but it told me there is an upload limit. Is there a limit?>>>

Anyhow, that's kind of made it harder to illustrate the kickstarter situation.

Made the picture smaller and it was accepted. Glad i don't have to find the words. The only thing that looks weird to me is the last coil of the spring seems to be out of place. Not sure if you can see that on the small pic. It may just be that it's pushed out because the cover is off.

 

[Rusty1]

Everything looks really good in there but as you indicated in your first post the manual states that to access the kickstart operating mechanism the inner gearbox cover has to come off which means the primary drive has to come apart. I’ve not delved into my T100R that far yet, it seems like a lot of dismantling to get to where you want to be but if you have to dismantle the clutch anyway........

If the bike was laid up because of a sudden kickstart failure I suspect that the pawl spring has broken, fig D8 in section D5.

 

[tridentt150v]

The pawl spring wont stop the kickstarter working, you just need an occy strap to tie up one kicked. Ben there, done that.
I think you will find the issue is in the primary side, and probably the woodruff key like RPW said. BTW I'd add a little squirt of oil down each cylinder, as you play with the bike and turn it over this oil will coat the bore as well as free up any rings 'frozen in time'.

 

[Andytheflyer]

Everything looks really good in there but as you indicated in your first post the manual states that to access the kickstart operating mechanism the inner gearbox cover has to come off which means the primary drive has to come apart. I’ve not delved into my T100R that far yet, it seems like a lot of dismantling to get to where you want to be but if you have to dismantle the clutch anyway........

If the bike was laid up because of a sudden kickstart failure I suspect that the pawl spring has broken, fig D8 in section D5.

Hi Chris,

That's an immaculate gearbox - this bike is almost new. Lucky, lucky find.

I'm not sure that he has to take the clutch off just yet - although he'll need to have the primary cover off to get the clutch plates out for clean.

I'm not sure he has to take the primary off to get at the kickstart pawl - I had my gearbox to bits only last summer and my memory is fading already. Frightening, and I'm only 65! If he undoes the mainshaft nut (that in itself can be a challenge!) and the two retaining screws I think the inner cover comes off leaving the main shaft and layshaft in situ. That'll let him get at the ks pawl to see if that's the problem.

However, first, if he follows Peg's test he can see if the pawl is engaging now that the outer cover is off. If he puts it in gear and turns the ks shaft, with it in gear it should turn the mainshaft if the pawl is engaged and the pawl plunger spring is OK. That would also turn the back wheel as the main shaft high gear (with the gearbox sprocket) will be engaged. If the pawl is not engaged, the layshaft low gear will not be turning, and hence neither will the mainshaft.

Upthread, Daryl says that if he rotates the back wheel with the gearbox in 4th, the engine rotates, and as Peg says, in that case the Woodruff key must be OK because the mainshaft is turning the primary drive.

With the gearbox outer cover now off, he should be able to see the gearbox turning over through the camplate aperture and the mainshaft nut rotating as he rotates the ks shaft if the pawl is engaged. Agreed?

It has to be the pawl plunger spring, or maybe the pawl itself, unless something more major has broken, like a gear so that the layshaft and mainshaft are not engaging.