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Discussion Starter #1
Well, if it's got genitals or handlebars... you probably get what I'm driving at... I got sick of the diabolical clutch action on my 1980 T140E, so put a 7 plate clutch kit in it. Took lots of care, scrupulously clean workshop practice etc etc, and it feels great now, and seems to work without grinding and horrible action. Only thing is - she will no longer start reliably. Sooo...the old story: "I fixed my Triumph (and now it doesn't go anymore)" Anyone been there...?
Well, did all the usual (as well as searching this forum and noting lots of good stuff by such as Stuart Mac, Rancid Peg, Tiger TR7RV and Kadutz), and finally thought I'd try new coils, leads and plugs. How hard can it be, there's only so much can go wrong (and I've owned a few T140s before)? Still no go yesterday despite a faint chuff initially, plenty of spark, fuel, no kill switch or obvious nastiness in wiring, and I didn't even bother kicking it 73 times 'just in case', cos when it won't go it just won't.

Well, today tried it and thought I'd just try a different routine - taps and ignition on, free clutch, and NO CHOKE. She fired right up and burbled away quite happily at about 900RPM.
So my question/observation: why would a bit just change its starting routine preference after a clutch rebuild? Before it was always the usual free clutch, ign and petrol on, choke lever depressed and bang! Now it seems to hate the choke... Weird bike...nearly ended up being chucked off the wharf at the bottom of the street into the harbour... cheers (I think) - Pat
 

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The joys of owning and riding vintage motorcycles, especially British motorcycles. I don't know why it did that to you, but I can tell you, I never use the choke on any of my british bikes and they always start on the 1st or 2nd kick.

Rob
 

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You live on different continents.
Weather/temp/humidity/fuel has a lot to do with easy or hard starting
 

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Every now and then my T140 doesn’t want to start when warm. It has no choke mechanism, no slides, no cables. Cold it’s a 1-3 kick starter. Warm sometimes it wants a tickle, other times starts first kick doing nothing. There doesn’t seem to be a reliable repeatable hot start procedure. I kick it key off, then key on. If it doesn’t start I tickle.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Haha, yeah, thanks for the thoughts...! My wife suggests there is a slight element of magic to them, especially the old ones, and not everything is quite completely logical about how they habitually behave or run. I'll see if she starts this morning (the bike, that is) , and adjust my expectations. At least the clutch is good now. I imagine a new wiring loom would be a good thing, but that's a bit of a drastic job for me. Best thing you can do with old bike I reckon is run 'em every day!
Anyway, she's not gonna end up in the drink for now... cheers Pat
 

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Every now and then my T140 doesn’t want to start when warm. It has no choke mechanism, no slides, no cables. Cold it’s a 1-3 kick starter. Warm sometimes it wants a tickle, other times starts first kick doing nothing. There doesn’t seem to be a reliable repeatable hot start procedure. I kick it key off, then key on. If it doesn’t start I tickle.
Yeh, I find there are too opposite situations when starting the bike hot. Either the fuel has evaporated from the carb bowls, in which case it will only start with a bit of a tickle to refill the float bowls, OR its flooded and will only start with half to three quarter throttle (released the moment she fires of course). Never any choke with a warm engine.
 

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Hi DrPat,, If... all you did was clutch & starting changed you may be experiencing minor clutch slip during kicking. I've had experience with this. Clutch may not slip on road, but kicking puts a lot of force on clutch.

You don't say what brand 7 plate kit you used. I have lots of experience with Hyde, only a little with Aerco. Hyde's I've been involved with had same stack height of all plates as stock Triumph. However my new Aerco is thinner. So to compensate I've found I have to go deeper with spring nuts. Especially with 650 springs in T140 motor. Nominal of all 14 plates stacked is 1.400". If yours is thinner, go deeper with nuts by that amount.

Id double check rod adjustment also as new plates bed quickly using up rod play, which will lead to slip. After about 3 adjustments over a few hundred miles I find it settles down & holds adjustment well.

Not saying this is cause, but keep it in mind. If nothing else changed, it very well could be cause.
Don
 

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Hi Dr Pat,
The Mk2 Amal in standard jetting likes a bit of enrichment to start cold or warm. It is not clear if this ‘no choke’ start was a one off, or you continue to start the bike every time without choke.

If it was a one off event, I suggest that you might have accidentally pooled extra fuel in the inlet manifold during the clutch change, each subsequent attempt to start with the enrichers depressed flooded the cylinders further, until your no choke start managed to clear the engine of excess fuel.

If the bike continues to start without enrichment every time, then would have thought you cannot have it both ways: If it is rich enough to start without choke, then it should be too rich to idle when hot.
I would suggest that continued no choke starting with a Mk2 carb is a sign of something wrong. I would look for leaking enrichment devices, leaking float valve, main jet unscrewed in float bowl.

Regards
Peg.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks everyone for a good number of insights! The logical idea that something connected the clutch repair with the sudden abnormal (non) starting is brilliant TR7RVman - it was the exact link I couldn't see - and now I'll remember to keep on top of the pushrod adjustment as the clutch (an Aerco) beds in.
Thanks Peg for the carbs thoughts also - something amiss would also change the starting routine, good point, I might drop the bowls off and have a look. She fired up today with a brief dose of choke, and settled into a nice idle; also pulling very well, better than before (I am still thinking new coils and leads have benefitted the motor too), and didn't strand me anywhere.
And thanks also Paul (hope you're not burnt out..!), yeah the warmed engine seems to start easy with a touch of throttle.
Anyway, hopefully the bloody thing will settle down now - all the discussion and help much appreciated!! cheers, Pat
 

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I have found with mine that no matter where I buy fuel (ethanol) I need to drain water from my float bowls periodically. Just a bit, I’m assuming condensation. i bought a new cap because there is always water in the bowls if parked in rain. Maybe it dribbles into the bowls through the ticklers .
 

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My 79 T140D is modified, Mikuni flatslide carbs and some internal changes...It starts on one kick cold or hot ...But on rare occasions it requires more kicking for no particular reason..It was this way when it was stock with the Amal Mk2's.
I am so glad that non ethanol fuel is readily availble here...
 

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I have found with mine that no matter where I buy fuel (ethanol) I need to drain water from my float bowls periodically. Just a bit, I’m assuming condensation. i bought a new cap because there is always water in the bowls if parked in rain. Maybe it dribbles into the bowls through the ticklers .
Water can enter thru the tickler and can be minimized by installing the extended ticklers.

I suspect the other bit of water you are draining is due to the ethanol fuel separating. I am making two assumptions from reading your other posts. One is that you are using a Premium grade of fuel with the higher octane rating. The second is the bike is not ridden much and the fuel may be in the tank for more than 6 to 8 weeks. Over simplified Ethanol gasoline is a mix of gasoline ethanol and water. It is my understanding after above four weeks the water CAN start separating and fall to the bottom of the tank. On a vehicle that is not used on a very regular basis ( including boats, lawn equipment, gas stored in gas cans, etc.) a fuel stabilizer should be added. My personal choice is a product call Star Tron enzyme fuel stabilizer been using it for about 10 years. Some people may like Stabil but it is something that needs to be used.

K
 

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If I am reading this correctly the old start procedure consisted of kicking through a couple of times to free the clutch plates. Until the clutch was free you were turning over the engine and sucking air fuel mix through the carburetor.

It would appear that you don't know have to free the clutch so in effect you are using a different start procedure and getting different results. This sounds logical to me.

If you were keen you could replicate the old starting procedure by simulating the clutch freeing routine and see how the choke effects that.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
hey Reidy, yes good point! With the old sticky crap clutch it was getting 2 or 3 spins to free it, and THEN a kick with the choke. Now it frees up easier, and so logically the starting procedure changes. That's the connection - you're a bloody genius! I probably just needed to think it through, but that is logical and explains the seemingly unrelated developments. Anyway, she seems to behave now, that's the main thing, and evidently there's nothing worse wrong
thanks - cheers Pat
 

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Well, today tried it and thought I'd just try a different routine - taps and ignition on, free clutch, and NO CHOKE. She fired right up and burbled away quite happily at about 900RPM.
So my question/observation: why would a bit just change its starting routine preference after a clutch rebuild? Before it was always the usual free clutch, ign and petrol on, choke lever depressed and bang! Now it seems to hate the choke... Weird bike...nearly ended up being chucked off the wharf at the bottom of the street into the harbour... cheers (I think) - Pat
Bro these old turds are just rough old motor mowers that owners believe are complex bits of engineering. No so. Can’t say how many times I’ve seen owners rush out and change every bit of Iggy equipment known, to find nothing changed on the poor starting behaviour. Your clutch work had bugger all to do with the change you’ve related.
For an easy start you need decent compression (100 lbs/sq ft easy checked) a nice fat spark at the plug (easy check), arriving at the right time (checked last as not so easy), fuel delivered via the idle jet and air screw (can be time consuming depending on the carburettor) for a rich mixture (chokes and/or fuel enriches help here). Get these right or nearly right and these old turds will start every time, on time. Mine gets lots of use, little maintenance and it’s a one kick starter 95 out of 100.
Yours is now staring for you, so thank God and make good use of it. Don’t over think these things too much. Generally this broken down brigade here can be very helpful PROVIDED you give good details about the symptoms being experienced. Best of luck with this. RR. 😁😁
BTW. 900rpm is too low for idle. You’re better served at 1000-1100rpm
 

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I would suggest that continued no choke starting with a Mk2 carb is a sign of something wrong. I would look for leaking enrichment devices, leaking float valve, main jet unscrewed in float bowl.

Regards
Peg.
Yep, I agree. RR.
 

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If I am reading this correctly the old start procedure consisted of kicking through a couple of times to free the clutch plates. Until the clutch was free you were turning over the engine and sucking air fuel mix through the carburetor.

It would appear that you don't know have to free the clutch so in effect you are using a different start procedure and getting different results. This sounds logical to me.

If you were keen you could replicate the old starting procedure by simulating the clutch freeing routine and see how the choke effects that.
I guess if “diabolical clutch action” translates to sticking clutch plates (usually an American phenomenon unheard of in Oz) then this is a thoughtful reply and quite possibly the correct answer! Personally I never prime kick my old turd. It’s Iggy on, flood both carbys, and get right into it with very little throttle on. In winter, some choke from a single carby. Works for me and Old ‘72. 😁😁
 
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