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Discussion Starter #1
Hey Folks,

I rode my usual Sunday ride the other day and the guy following me said that he could see red then, blue flames inside my tail pipe on my (more aggressive) downshifts. :wideeyed:

He said it was "cool" but I said that I really wasn't planning on giving a "light show" so I started to think if this is really a "normal condition" with my set-up.

Equipment Set-up:

For some time, I've have had the Triumph Off-Road pipe with a K&N air filter installed with the dealer uploaded TOR map. Anyone know if the dealer loaded TOR map has been updated over the last couple years or is this just the ECU not shutting down the fuel delivery fast enough on heavy downshifting?

Now I realize that it's not a Yamaha R6 race engine and I don't ride it like that all the time (because it's my commuter bike), but I do now and again, so, anyhow is the mixture too rich on TOR maps? Is the K&N filter affecting it somehow?

Anybody with TuneBoys doing custom mapping that have a similar set-up care to chime in here with their TOR mapping experience?

Thanks,

David
 

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Hi David I have 2008 Sprint, which has TOR exhaust, stock air filter, it does exactly the
same thing mainly on overrun. I also a friend following me telling about fames coming
out the exhaust.


Do a search and you find my post (TOR running Rich)

Cheers Barry
 

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Why are you worried?

With a TOR you need to richen the mixture as the free flow can makes it run too lean.

My '04 with K & N and Triumph race can does that I rather like it when my mates tell me I have flames coming out the exhaust!:)

SprintST_Yes your engine is more robust than you give it credit for, my 2004 955 has 60,000kms and all of them have been very sporty riding except for about 4 3-6 day trips, it does not burn oil, starts first time and goes like stink.

DaveM:cool:
 

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Flames? I fail to see the negative in this situation.

:Devil3:
 

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Not hijacking the thread...just to inform my experience with the Triumph Off Road exhaust.

Had it put on my ST08...runs like Crappola, bike hesitates and just feels that it has reduced power....just weird. Talked to the dealer about it and they tried the map download again...no good.

Just pulled it off and put the stock back on...much better. So have not enjoyed the Triumph offering at all....hopefully the mechanics can work out the problems...but ???? who knows.

Funny thing was the part number should be A9608028 for the TOR, when I pulled it out of the bike it has part # A9600145 stamped on it...so I have no idea what the heck is going on...!

Seems the Triumph mapping are F'd and so I've spent $800 (plus installation) on something that makes my bike run worse....a product from Triumph and fitted by Triumph dealers......

Basically...I wish I had ya problem and had flames coming out :)
 

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my ST08... part number should be A9608028 for the TOR, when I pulled it out of the bike it has part # A9600145 stamped on it..
Just to clarify... the -028 for the Speed Triple? the -145 part should be for the Sprint.
 

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David,
The flames are a result of unburned fuel and acts as a coolant for the cylinders and this is a good thing. The TOR can has quite a bit of back pressure which enhances the flame effect even more with the TOR tune. I will guess that your running in the upper 6000-8500 RPM range and with heavy down shifting/engine braking you will get flames. The ST1050 torque peak is at 5000, with power in the mids you can still be fast and not work the engine as hard.

The TOR tune is very conservative with timing and A/F ratios. The performance differences between the ST, Tiger and Speed Triple are all in the maps except for the different cylinder liner the Triple has. You can easily get the ST to perform like a Triple, you just can't run it as hard. You can't just load a Triple map into the ST, there are hidden codes and the tables are different. A full conversion must be made. That was my starting point for the custom maps.

If you have a Tuneboy and are looking for more performance, T595.net has several custom maps that are free to download. If you still need a little more I have a few track day maps.

I have a 05 with a TwoBros.

Jeff
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks Jeff, Great info!

...& Yes, I hit the 6000-8500 RPM range on some of the more aggressive downshifts mostly reving up there when entering the tight hairpin turns in first gear as I'm powering out of the corners at 5k-ish. (My race bikes are usually the tool for this ride tho).

Generally speaking, this abuse is not necessarily going to be often on this bike (even though I realize it can take a fair beating), I simply don't trust running it too hard after my first top-end rebuild at just 21K miles. I did it all myself.

But with your input, it's just good to know I'm not necessarily doing damage at this point by just cruising around "running too rich" and possibly washing cylinder walls with gas effectively starving it for oil in the cylinder walls.

Lastly, searching threads also noticed that there is an non-SAI w/TOR map. On my re-build, I disabled the SAI and put the block-off plates on, but I haven't taken it to the dealer yet to have the ECU reset. When I do shortly....

Do you think I should leave the SAI map in there since it seems like people say the non-SAI w/TOR map is generally too lean? ...or should I get the dealer to load that non-SAI w/TOR map?

Thank in advance.

//D
 

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The TOR tune is very conservative with timing and A/F ratios. The performance differences between the ST, Tiger and Speed Triple are all in the maps except for the different cylinder liner the Triple has. You can easily get the ST to perform like a Triple, you just can't run it as hard. You can't just load a Triple map into the ST, there are hidden codes and the tables are different. A full conversion must be made. That was my starting point for the custom maps.

????? What year Speed Triple has different liners?
 

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Not hijacking the thread...just to inform my experience with the Triumph Off Road exhaust.

Had it put on my ST08...runs like Crappola, bike hesitates and just feels that it has reduced power....just weird. Talked to the dealer about it and they tried the map download again...no good.

Just pulled it off and put the stock back on...much better. So have not enjoyed the Triumph offering at all....hopefully the mechanics can work out the problems...but ???? who knows.:)
Interesting that you are having this problem. We dyno'd 4 Sprint 1050s before Christmas at City Triumph in Melbourne. The worst performer was an 07 with the TOR muffler and TOR tune with a max of 111hp, an 06 with stock pipe and tune out performed it across the whole range with a max of 112hp. The best performer was an 05 with single straight through perforated pipe in the muffler and TOR tune, it produced a beautiful flat torque curve with more torque across the whole rev range and a max of 119hp running ordinary unleaded and the original air filter that was due for replacement. The other bike was an 05 with IXILs and BMC filter which produced 116hp but lost a little in the bottom end compared to stock.

I suspect the TOR tune for the 07s onwards is not some of Triumphs best work. The ECM was changed in 07 and a different map was created for the TOR muffler. The guy with the IXILs previously had the TOR on his 05 and it ran well and felt stronger than stock.

Given you are in SA, you may want to discuss your issues with Wayne at Tuneboy. He should be able to sort the tune out for you.
 

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Was just thinking, the TOR, does it have a cat? If so how does that work out with flames in the exhaust?
As far as I know the cat will burn up if you get fuel to ignite in the exhaust. Anyone that can shine a light on this?
 

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Lazarus,

The TOR pipe eliminates the cat. But depending on your country of origin you may still have the pre-cat in your up pipe.

gary
 

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Ralphus,
Dyno top end readings are meaningless unless you are drag racing. Midrange torque is what its all about in the twisties. When Rossi went to the Yamaha M1, they detuned the motor 5 times to get more control coming off of the apex of a corner. Too much wheel spin. He lost some top end in the straights but won in the corners. The rest is MotoGP history. The Triple has it all over the ST in the midrange and you don't need a dyno to tell you that. The Fuel, Timing and A/F's in the maps tell the story.

The 20213 and 20214 are the triple maps to use for the S3 and ST conversions. My guess is they are NOT Triumph maps but were developed by Arrow. More robust and aggressive, unlike anything else offered by Triumph.

David,
A top end rebuild at 21K !!!!. You have got to change your riding habits. 5K at the apex only leaves you 4K left to work with. Upshift 2 gears and try 2 to 2.5K at the apex. This will also allow you to exit the corner without upshifting during the last 1/3 like you have been doing and upsetting the suspension. Shifting while in a lean will change your line and you risk a highside when reapplying throttle.
Think smooth and grace.

The tune with SAI will work fine if you don't have SAI but not the other way around. There are hidden codes that control the SAI.
Congrats on doing the rebuild yourself. I suggest investing in a Tuneboy. Mine paid for itself the first time I used it.

I hope this helps
Jeff
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Thanks Jeff, I'll try the SAI tune for sure. Certainly a TuneBoy is in the works too. Can't wait.

Yes, I have changed my riding habbits, I bought an R6 for street racing after beating on this Sprint with an 18T front sprocket for about 10K miles (after which, I then turned this into my "Tourer" ...then, later it started to blow smoke at 21k). Many of the guys on this particular ride have had similar "early wear" signs on their bikes too, so it's quite common (Except the Yamaha guys):D.

No matter how "durable" the guys on this forum think the Sprint is, it's NOT durable as a race bike, so don't "punish it" all the time IMO (like you can an R6). I only took the Sprint out on this ride last couple weeks to break-in the new rings, so in a way, it was a once in a while deal anyhow.

And as for this ride, I do mean race because as for the riding style, it not as much as changing "my riding style" as it's would be trying to change the riding style of the riders around me (and fat chance on that one) :D One of the riders I ride with races IOM and wheelies out of hairpin corners at will on his R1 as he pulls away with "Smooth and grace" too.:cool:

And while I'll agree that "Smooth and grace" is a key to going fast, I wouldn't call this particular ride "graceful"...I reserve that style for when I have a passenger on board or I'm swishing thru the twisties on my own etc.

BTW, my bike makes nothing at 2.5K. It doesn't even want to be below 3K at all. It only lugs down there. Not until after 3.5K can I really begin to open the throttle with any gusto. I've actually geared it up a tooth in the front to a 20T for my 40 mile commute everyday, and it's awesome, 4.3k at like 75 with 50 Mpg. Yes, a 20T front. So with that set-up, 4.5k to 9K with a 20T front is waaaay longer than you think so there's less shifting than you think. But again, not the right tool for racing but she still hauls some major a$$. :D

Cheers!

//D
 
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