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Discussion Starter #1
Hi All.

Just working on a shopping list.

Tying down replaceables for the long time coming tear down/rebuild of my 1977 T140 motor.

Unless I can see something obviously worn, I'll be sticking with the original oil pump.

Do you recommend replacing any of the following though?


60-2363 Valve Ball 7/32” diam x 2
70-0403 Valve Spring x 2
71-3910 Joint Washer
60-3355 O Ring release valve to crankshaft
70-8754 Joint Washer Release Valve Cap to Body
70-7591 Release Valve Spring
70-8752 Release Valve Piston


Also the Oil Pump Joint Washer (71-3910) replacement I scored in a T140 Gasket Kit doesn't seem to have the holes in the same place as the one displayed on page 14 of the 1976 - 1977 T140 Parts Book.

Did they supply the correct washer/gasket?

Cheers

R R
 

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Hi Rod Rocket, If the bike still runs, I'd warm it up well & test the oil pressure before tear down to get a base line of where you are at now. Idle, 4000 rpm. Also do same test cold. In any case it's valuable to own oil pressure test kit.

The gasket with the slot works fine with either 2 hole or the slot configuration on the pump. Look at new pump photos on ebay to see what I mean. If I have slot pump, I cut the paper out to form a slot where the 2 holes are, as I'm afraid of the unsupported paper fracturing.

Regarding balls, springs in pump, I would not jump into changing them. Study the manual & test the pump before you take it apart.

If it tests good I would not take it apart. Just pump clean oil through it to flush it out on the bench in a little dish of oil.

If it fails the test, then take it apart. But you should already know what your oil pressure is from the prior testing, if motor can be tested. I've not had any success on fixing bad pump seats, by hitting balls. If it fails test & has no dirt in valve seats I'd replace pump. Sometimes pumps can be really hard to remove the valve caps & the pump can be damaged in the process.

It is imperative the new pump is flushed & tested no matter the brand!! Any drop of oil in port is a fail. Any!!

Test driving block to cross head on plungers. The max spec is too much. Good will be .0015" or so. Look at hole also for wear. Use feeler blades & Vernier calipers to measure clearances. You'll need a 1" micrometer also to measure various parts. The large parts like bores you need larger tools to measure, or have the machine shop measure. The crank journals needs 2" micrometer. Drive blocks are not costly so if it's not near new spec, I'd replace it.

I'd replace both seals on pressure relief valve. A tiny smear of sealant on sealing washers in not a bad idea.

Regarding piston & spring. Very often spring doesn't match spec in manual. Will be shorter, but works perfectly good. I don't why the specs are not matching even new springs. Piston & bore doesn't tend to wear fast, so it may be your old one is better than a new one. Often a slightly worn original works better that a new repro valve. Quality of many (most??) new parts are just awful. Genuine Triumph NOS is best, good used is next best. New repro is last resort. Sadly good used & NOS parts are very hard to come by. In any case do not get a stainless PRV.

Again if possible, your oil pressure tests will give an indication of PRV problems.

What I do is evaluate the motor before tear down best I can & note all know problems or defects. Every oil leak or odd noise also.

Anything I noted, I give extra special attention to on tear down.

As I take motor apart I have a ledger handy & list every last seal & gasket as I remove them. I inspect every part & it's threads as I remove them. Especially rocker box retaining threads. These seem weakest on motor. I add every defective part to list. Of course look at transmission parts as you go as well.

I take lots of photos. 100s

Takes a long time to take motor apart & inspect as you go, but assures you know what condition everything is in & what parts you need. Some parts I'll put a question mark next to. They have more wear than I'd like but really ok. I'll decide if budget allows for some luxury items that are not actually that bad. Then make up my mind.

I generally don't buy any parts until I know what I actually need. This adds a few extra weeks to build time, I get that, but saves money in the long run.

Parts book photos are not to be trusted. Triumph made many changes to parts, yet used the old illustrations in parts book.
Don
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for your detailed response Don.

When bought, my bike was a basket case so I didn't have the luxury of testing the motor.

I'll aim at doing some simple tests on the pump for clearances and pump some fresh oil through.

What specific type of sealants would you smear then sealing washers with?

I'm not sure what you meant by "any drop of oil in port is a fail".
How do I look for this and how do I flush the pump with oil.
Is it when off the motor in a dish or ???

Which part number is/are the driving block when checking gap between it and the cross head on plungers?

Sorry for the dumb questions.

This project is my first foray into mechanical work.

cheers

R R


Hi Rod Rocket, If the bike still runs, I'd warm it up well & test the oil pressure before tear down to get a base line of where you are at now. Idle, 4000 rpm. Also do same test cold. In any case it's valuable to own oil pressure test kit.

The gasket with the slot works fine with either 2 hole or the slot configuration on the pump. Look at new pump photos on ebay to see what I mean. If I have slot pump, I cut the paper out to form a slot where the 2 holes are, as I'm afraid of the unsupported paper fracturing.

Regarding balls, springs in pump, I would not jump into changing them. Study the manual & test the pump before you take it apart.

If it tests good I would not take it apart. Just pump clean oil through it to flush it out on the bench in a little dish of oil.

If it fails the test, then take it apart. But you should already know what your oil pressure is from the prior testing, if motor can be tested. I've not had any success on fixing bad pump seats, by hitting balls. If it fails test & has no dirt in valve seats I'd replace pump. Sometimes pumps can be really hard to remove the valve caps & the pump can be damaged in the process.

It is imperative the new pump is flushed & tested no matter the brand!! Any drop of oil in port is a fail. Any!!

Test driving block to cross head on plungers. The max spec is too much. Good will be .0015" or so. Look at hole also for wear. Use feeler blades & Vernier calipers to measure clearances. You'll need a 1" micrometer also to measure various parts. The large parts like bores you need larger tools to measure, or have the machine shop measure. The crank journals needs 2" micrometer. Drive blocks are not costly so if it's not near new spec, I'd replace it.

I'd replace both seals on pressure relief valve. A tiny smear of sealant on sealing washers in not a bad idea.

Regarding piston & spring. Very often spring doesn't match spec in manual. Will be shorter, but works perfectly good. I don't why the specs are not matching even new springs. Piston & bore doesn't tend to wear fast, so it may be your old one is better than a new one. Often a slightly worn original works better that a new repro valve. Quality of many (most??) new parts are just awful. Genuine Triumph NOS is best, good used is next best. New repro is last resort. Sadly good used & NOS parts are very hard to come by. In any case do not get a stainless PRV.

Again if possible, your oil pressure tests will give an indication of PRV problems.

What I do is evaluate the motor before tear down best I can & note all know problems or defects. Every oil leak or odd noise also.

Anything I noted, I give extra special attention to on tear down.

As I take motor apart I have a ledger handy & list every last seal & gasket as I remove them. I inspect every part & it's threads as I remove them. Especially rocker box retaining threads. These seem weakest on motor. I add every defective part to list. Of course look at transmission parts as you go as well.

I take lots of photos. 100s

Takes a long time to take motor apart & inspect as you go, but assures you know what condition everything is in & what parts you need. Some parts I'll put a question mark next to. They have more wear than I'd like but really ok. I'll decide if budget allows for some luxury items that are not actually that bad. Then make up my mind.

I generally don't buy any parts until I know what I actually need. This adds a few extra weeks to build time, I get that, but saves money in the long run.

Parts book photos are not to be trusted. Triumph made many changes to parts, yet used the old illustrations in parts book.
Don
 

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Hi Rod, The drive block is # 70-0495. The clearance to cross head of piston is .0015" to .0045".

Our own Codeman just gave me his old pump with worn drive block. Has .010" clearance!! Visually just looking, doesn't look like much so you must always actually measure it. We've been out of town for 3 days so I haven't had a chance to examine this pump for other wear. I also have another pump that had bad ball seat. I have a lot going on right now. I'll try to take some photos over the next several days on how to measure & bench test pump.

Regarding flushing & bench testing, get a small pan or margarine tube or the like. Large enough to fit the oil pump in with some wiggle room for your fingers. Fill it with about 1.5" of motor oil. Enough to fully submerge pump & then some.

Wear glasses/goggles so you don't squirt oil into your eye.

With pump submerged, pump the plungers with your fingers. You'll soon see the pump fill with oil & air bleed out. Always make sure pump is fully submerged. Pump plungers several times. This bleeds & flushes. I've not found pumps to be dirty inside unless something like a rubber or gasket chip got sucked into pump. It will fail test if large piece of dirt is in ball seat.

Then lift out pump with holes facing upwards. Wipe excess oil off, just with your fingers. Now test like shop manual says. I want you to experiment with it & figure out what shop manual means. Only then will it make sense. You have to play with pump & soon you'll get the feel of it & manual will make sense. It's the only way.

Measure the plunger (piston) diameter & bore diameter & compare with shop manual. Examine pistons & bores for scratches & grooving. I'll photo that best I can. The bores & pistons can wear oval, keep that in mind. So measure all around piston & bores to check for oval, in case they have worn oval.

I didn't used to respect plunger pumps, but if the oil is clean they work really well & have great suction & can pump air to a large degree when needed, like after an oil change.

For sealant on the 2 seal rings on PRV you can use Loctite 518 (I most strongly recommend this for case half, timing cover, trans cover sealants). However Loctite 510 or 574 is better at sealing ridged parts like copper, aluminum, fiber washers. 510 is a little stronger & more heat resistant than 574. 574 is what Porsche motors & transmissions are assembled with. But!!! If you use it on a timing cover, will be VERY HARD TO SEPERATE LATER!! 510 is even harder to separate. This is not a problem on washers or gaskets though.

518 will not leak, yet allow easy separation later. I would use 510, or 574, 518 on PRV sealing washers in that order. All of these will not leak & allow you to remove & take apart PRV later if needed though. I have personally installed PRV & oil pressure switch with 574 & 518 & none have leaked. Again, 518 is not as good for these sealing washers, but does work.

Depends what you can find in AU. Generally all these must be ordered from an industrial supply store. Mercedes, Porsche dealers can order sealants that are made by Loctite by part Mercedes or Porsche part #. I can get Mercedes part # when you are ready. Many aftermarket sellers have counterfeit products sold as genuine or aged product that won't cure properly. So buy from a real supply store or dealer. None are cheap, but they really insure leak free motor.

Don't use sealant on oil pump gasket. Install it dry. If at all possible, use a torque wrench on oil pump nuts. Loctite 243 is not bad idea on oil pump nuts & connecting rod nuts.
Don
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Hi Rod, The drive block is # 70-0495. The clearance to cross head of piston is .0015" to .0045".

Our own Codeman just gave me his old pump with worn drive block. Has .010" clearance!! Visually just looking, doesn't look like much so you must always actually measure it. We've been out of town for 3 days so I haven't had a chance to examine this pump for other wear. I also have another pump that had bad ball seat. I have a lot going on right now. I'll try to take some photos over the next several days on how to measure & bench test pump.

Regarding flushing & bench testing, get a small pan or margarine tube or the like. Large enough to fit the oil pump in with some wiggle room for your fingers. Fill it with about 1.5" of motor oil. Enough to fully submerge pump & then some.

Wear glasses/goggles so you don't squirt oil into your eye.

With pump submerged, pump the plungers with your fingers. You'll soon see the pump fill with oil & air bleed out. Always make sure pump is fully submerged. Pump plungers several times. This bleeds & flushes. I've not found pumps to be dirty inside unless something like a rubber or gasket chip got sucked into pump. It will fail test if large piece of dirt is in ball seat.

Then lift out pump with holes facing upwards. Wipe excess oil off, just with your fingers. Now test like shop manual says. I want you to experiment with it & figure out what shop manual means. Only then will it make sense. You have to play with pump & soon you'll get the feel of it & manual will make sense. It's the only way.

Measure the plunger (piston) diameter & bore diameter & compare with shop manual. Examine pistons & bores for scratches & grooving. I'll photo that best I can. The bores & pistons can wear oval, keep that in mind. So measure all around piston & bores to check for oval, in case they have worn oval.

I didn't used to respect plunger pumps, but if the oil is clean they work really well & have great suction & can pump air to a large degree when needed, like after an oil change.

For sealant on the 2 seal rings on PRV you can use Loctite 518 (I most strongly recommend this for case half, timing cover, trans cover sealants). However Loctite 510 or 574 is better at sealing ridged parts like copper, aluminum, fiber washers. 510 is a little stronger & more heat resistant than 574. 574 is what Porsche motors & transmissions are assembled with. But!!! If you use it on a timing cover, will be VERY HARD TO SEPERATE LATER!! 510 is even harder to separate. This is not a problem on washers or gaskets though.

518 will not leak, yet allow easy separation later. I would use 510, or 574, 518 on PRV sealing washers in that order. All of these will not leak & allow you to remove & take apart PRV later if needed though. I have personally installed PRV & oil pressure switch with 574 & 518 & none have leaked. Again, 518 is not as good for these sealing washers, but does work.

Depends what you can find in AU. Generally all these must be ordered from an industrial supply store. Mercedes, Porsche dealers can order sealants that are made by Loctite by part Mercedes or Porsche part #. I can get Mercedes part # when you are ready. Many aftermarket sellers have counterfeit products sold as genuine or aged product that won't cure properly. So buy from a real supply store or dealer. None are cheap, but they really insure leak free motor.

Don't use sealant on oil pump gasket. Install it dry. If at all possible, use a torque wrench on oil pump nuts. Loctite 243 is not bad idea on oil pump nuts & connecting rod nuts.
Don
Thanks Don.

I'm keeping a spreadsheet of all these tips so it will all come together when I start splitting the crank and getting on with it.
 

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Hi Rod, This is how I remove sludge trap. Again heat the parts until spit boils. Especially the flywheel bolt. It will always be loctited from factory. The bolt is stepped & it will often break at the threads if Loctite is not heated sufficiently. Takes a long time to get the area hot. I use propane torch with the bottles. I don't use MAP gas just regular propane.

The plug socket is Snap-on A15A 1/2" drive that I use. Snap-on is very strong & I get from Snap-on dealer. Other brands will be fine. Look at the size I got, The blade must be thick enough to grind to slip fit into slot. Not thinner with play. The fit is very important. I have impact gun which makes it easy. Don't need full power, just ease it out. By hand works fine, but use all your weight to hold it into slot so it can't slip.

The threaded rod is 1/2-13 thread. The threaded pin is 1/4-20. You'll figure out your metric size as needed if you don't have easy access to imperial threaded rod.

Once you do it this way, it's so easy, you won't do it any other way & it doesn't damage parts.

You can expand photos to see drilling of punch on plug. I think others should expand also.
Don
 

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Hi Rod, The work shop manual says to drive cams on with a hollow tube. It was said the key & the cam bushing become the stop to keep cam from moving to left. I would agree with that.

I dug out spare cam & gear & my tools. I'll show what I do on the late cam gears. I use the installer stem from early cam gear tools & a hollow tube. I use this same tube to drive on crank pinon also.

The cam gear puller is the one I made. This set up works quite well. Very easy off/on & no damage to any parts. The stems are different for intake & exhaust cams as the thread size is different. In photo you can see "button" with the little stem. That goes inside exhaust cam where taper is, so puller has a flat surface to push against. Is it worth it to buy the early cam tools with a late bike? I think so. Would be nice to just get the installer stems separately, but I don't think they are sold that way. Of course the dealer already has both the early & later tools.

The install stem screws onto cam threads & has a "guide" section machined on end that gear slips over. This allows gear to press onto cam very squarely & makes it easy to align key to slot. There is a square drive on end of threaded stem to counter hold. Lube washers , nut threads well & gear goes on very easily. Presses gear all the way to shoulder on cam. Very easy & slick set up. So I've never driven a gear on like shop manual suggests.

On an aside with early gears, the hub of gear is threaded. The fat tool screws onto the threaded hub. Then pressure screw removes gear, while you counter hold the fat tool. Sometimes the gears can be a hard pull. I ground flats on my tool so I can counter hold with large wrench. To install early gear, you remove the pressure screw from fat tool. Then screw install stem to cam. Slip gear over install stem & align key/slot. Screw fat part onto gear, holding gear steady. Then tighten nut on stem to press against fat part puller & use the puller to push the gear back on. Or, use a tube like on late gears.
Don
 

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