Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums banner

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hello everyone,

after looking pretty much anywhere and even visiting my local dealer I thought I'd try the collective knowledge of this Forum to gather some insight with regards to my weird issue.

Long story short, 2019 Speed Twin, bought it with 997km end of September and now sitting at 3200km. I recently fitted a Tec X-Pipe and since then I have been experiencing temperature issues, as follows:

- bike warms up regularly at idle, fan comes on at 104C and temperature stays relatively stable at those levels at idle.
- while moving, temperature rapidly creeps up to 118/120C in city driving (sub 10C ambient temp), fan ALWAYS on.
- at constant speed and constant throttle, i.e. constant 40km/h in traffic temperature shoots up to 125/127C, temp light comes on
- speeding up or slowing down, even coming to a stop, brings temps down to around 120C
- highway driving, temps sit between 114/119C (sub 10C ambient temp @130km/h)
- highway driving, temp shoot up to 123 at constant throttle at 110km/h or below

I have an obd reader connected at all times, I installed it after experiencing the first Engine Temp Light problems, before hand I had no data about temperatures.

The facts:
- I never had temp light coming on before x-pipe fitting
- I have no idea what temperatures the bike was running at before x-pipe
- fan comes on and off as supposed to
- rad is warm
- overflow tank sits below min at cold, around halfway min to max once warm
- the bike never overheated proper (i.e. steam or blown rad cap or boiling water in overflow tank that I could see)
- dealer told me to refit the cat and try again as maybe it's a fuelling issue (I hardly believe that)
- dealer told me normally the bike should run 104/105C, so a good 15/20C lower than what I am experiencing

EDIT:

- dealer detected O2 Lambda imbalance left to right bank (4%) and suggested this is part of the culprit and related to decat.

What do you guys think? I personally don't believe the x-pipe has anything to do with it but as the dealer is reluctant to pass a warranty service before refitting the cat, unless someone comes up with some other idea I might just have to refit and see if it fixes the bike.

Looking forward for some feedback.

Cheers,

Gabriele.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,041 Posts
I'm shooting in the dark here. Fitting an X-pipe with no other work should have made no difference in engine temp or cooling, as you suspect.

Sounds like a thermostat sticking or stuck very nearly closed. Odd though that it would be fine and then start sticking immediately after the X-pipe was installed, without ever being touched.

The only things even remotely related to engine temperature during X-pipe installation are the lambda (O2) sensors. Any damage to a lambda (O2) sensor or its wiring during reinstallation? I noticed during X-pipe installation that each O2 sensor requires about five turns to reinstall on the header pipe. To prevent kinking or breaking of the wires, I twisted each sensor five full turns in the loose direction before threading on. You can pull the insulation back a little to check condition of the wires.

The only other thing might be a large air bubble in the coolant system, so that coolant isn't circulating properly. Again, if you didn't drain/flush/fill the coolant system and it was fine before, this is really unlikely. I mention this only because it can be a bit difficult to burp the last of the air out of the coolant system at the filler cap, even when rocking the bike from side to side and topping off as you go.

Wish I could be more definitive. Please let us know what you find.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I'm shooting in the dark here. Fitting an X-pipe with no other work should have made no difference in engine temp or cooling, as you suspect.

Sounds like a thermostat sticking or stuck very nearly closed. Odd though that it would be fine and then start sticking immediately after the X-pipe was installed, without ever being touched.

The only things even remotely related to engine temperature during X-pipe installation are the lambda (O2) sensors. Any damage to a lambda (O2) sensor or its wiring during reinstallation? I noticed during X-pipe installation that each O2 sensor requires about five turns to reinstall on the header pipe. To prevent kinking or breaking of the wires, I twisted each sensor five full turns in the loose direction before threading on. You can pull the insulation back a little to check condition of the wires.

The only other thing might be a large air bubble in the coolant system, so that coolant isn't circulating properly. Again, if you didn't drain/flush/fill the coolant system and it was fine before, this is really unlikely. I mention this only because it can be a bit difficult to burp the last of the air out of the coolant system at the filler cap, even when rocking the bike from side to side and topping off as you go.

Wish I could be more definitive. Please let us know what you find.
I just finished a first attempt at burping the system, it is indeed quite tricky. A little bit of air came out, now letting it cool to check levels again and maybe try again.

As for the O2 sensors, I see what you mean, the left hand header I fitted by turning the header around the sensor to twist it the least possible amount, the right hand side was quite tricky but I used the same system as you albeit a bit less scientific (did not count the turns). They might be a bit more twisted than factory, granted, but any damage to the wiring would trigger MIL i'd assume? I don't see how a closed loop lambda would affect water temps so much?

If I have no luck with burping I will undo both lambdas and refit trying to twist them the least possible.

thanks for the feedback, I will try these two things and see how it goes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
494 Posts
It's been said already but just fitting an x-pipe will not cause the engine to overheat, but I don't believe in coincidence so it's more than likely something you've done during the fitting.
I believe you have to remove one of the downpipes to release the cat, did you remove the O2 sensor or leave it in place?

Edit- took me so long to type that I missed your reply above
Have you double checked the the downpipe seal into the cylinder head?
Having said that I don't think either of these things would cause the engine to run 20 degrees too hot constantly.
Is it possible the engine was running hot even before you fitted the X pipe but just below the temperature to show the warning light, and fitting the x pipe has changed the fuelling enough to bump up the temperature by a couple of degrees and trigger a warning, you say you haven't monitored the temperatures before so it's possible.
If there was a issue beforehand and the x-pipe is now highlighted the problem maybe going back and refitting the cat is the answer, if the temperatures are still high then let the dealer sort it out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,041 Posts
When I get the rare anomaly like this I ask myself what changed, and specifically what did I change. Did I omit or mess up some step elsewhere? Example: I removed and replaced the chrome valve cover on my T120. The job involved removing the electronics attached to the bike's upper frame tube to make room to work. When I went for the first ride after putting everything back together, the cooling fan was constantly on, there was an MI light, code, and red high temp light. The code identified the problem as the temp sensor. Turns out I hadn't fully seated the temp sensor wire at its connector. This is the wire that runs up under the tank from the temp sensor located on the cylinder head next to the left header fin assembly. Sure enough, once that connector went click all returned to normal. The MI light went out after a few more rides. The code remains and can be recalled to this day. I'll let my dealer clear it sometime. No hurry.

When I did a drain/flush/fill on the cooling system at the end of three years, all seemed well. After the first ride I let the bike cool and removed the coolant cap to see if the system would take any more coolant. It did. I hadn't quite gotten all of the air out of the system when refilling. This despite being fairly aggressive while rocking the bike back and forth as far as I dared during filling to purge the last of the air.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Burping it seemed to work at the beginning still running warm but lower, but eventually as soon as I hit city traffic the bike is again 125C and beyond. The constant throttle behaviour seems to have disappeared tho, but now it heatsinks when standing still 🤔.

Temps are also moving erratically, sitting at 113 at 140km/h and suddenly climbing to 120 while keeping same speed only to drop again after few minutes.

I also believe its no coincidence that it happened the way it did but there is no logic to it.

Either way, I would not trust driving it much more so I dropped it to a different dealer and they‘ll look into it in the morning when the bike is cold. I guess they‘ll proof the system and if everything works and go from there. Bike is new and under warranty, the cooling system should be able to keep the temps under control with 5C ambient regardless of exhaust config 😄
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
183 Posts
Can use parameters in TuneECU to switch fan on at a lower temp if all else fails

Burping it seemed to work at the beginning still running warm but lower, but eventually as soon as I hit city traffic the bike is again 125C and beyond. The constant throttle behaviour seems to have disappeared tho, but now it heatsinks when standing still 🤔.

Temps are also moving erratically, sitting at 113 at 140km/h and suddenly climbing to 120 while keeping same speed only to drop again after few minutes.

I also believe its no coincidence that it happened the way it did but there is no logic to it.

Either way, I would not trust driving it much more so I dropped it to a different dealer and they‘ll look into it in the morning when the bike is cold. I guess they‘ll proof the system and if everything works and go from there. Bike is new and under warranty, the cooling system should be able to keep the temps under control with 5C ambient regardless of exhaust config 😄
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
It could be something as simple as a defective temperature sensor, or as previously stated the connector in the wiring loom. As it's under warranty, leave it with the dealers. Good luck, hope you manage to sort it. Let us know what the diagnosis was please.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
I can think of two possible issues:
1. Mixture too lean. This could happen if the o2 sensors were damaged or their ambient air ports are clogged. I haven't actually checked the sensors, but usually they require access to outside air as a reference. Many get that through their cables, so check if the cables going to the sensors are twisted or otherwise blocked on the inside.
If this is the case, you should see a significant mixture correction when getting live data from the ECU though. A 4% imbalance (I presume one cylinder has a 4% higher correction tahn the other) would not be sufficient to create such high temperatures.

2. Cooling system issues. Completely independent of the X-Pipe install, there could be something wrong with the system. Did the dealer or you check if the radiator gets hot? If not, the thermostat might be faulty. I would rule out the fan switch since you described the fan as being permanently on. Another possibility would be air in the cooling system which has to be bled off, but I wouldn't know how it got in there if you didn't drain the coolant.

I hope you get it fixed, and I'm curious to know what was the culprit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Quick update:

dealer fit a temperature sensor and a new thermostat but the problem is still there. They are also quite confused now, they are thinking the radiator might be somehow obstructed or blocked and they will swap that out on Monday and see if it helps.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
494 Posts
Quick update:

dealer fit a temperature sensor and a new thermostat but the problem is still there. They are also quite confused now, they are thinking the radiator might be somehow obstructed or blocked and they will swap that out on Monday and see if it helps.
"They are also quite confused now", :laugh2:
Normal for most triumph dealers, throw parts at a problem until it works, which is fine as long as you're not paying:|.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,041 Posts
Agree that they may just be throwing parts at the problem at this point. The suggestion above to check to see that the radiator is actually getting hot is a good one.

Don't know where you are, but do you have lemon laws that are any good? Here, if a dealer can't fix a bike under warranty and 30 days has elapsed (or multiple attempts), the dealer gets the bike back if the customer so desires.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Don't know where you are, but do you have lemon laws that are any good? Here, if a dealer can't fix a bike under warranty and 30 days has elapsed (or multiple attempts), the dealer gets the bike back if the customer so desires.
Well, we will cross that line when and if we get there, I'd much rather believe they'll find the issue. I mean, it's a motorbike, not a spaceship. There is still the radiator or the water pump. If that does not fix it then we'll see.

The radiator always seemed to warm up just fine to me, the only weird thing was that once the fan would come on the radiator would stay basically scorching hot on the top end but quite cold where the fan is and below but they told me that's normal?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,041 Posts
the only weird thing was that once the fan would come on the radiator would stay basically scorching hot on the top end but quite cold where the fan is and below but they told me that's normal?
Not normal at all. The coolant may not be circulating, which would pretty much explain everything. I'm not there of course, and your shop will figure it out, but with cooling problems, it's lack of coolant, no circulation (bad pump), a blockage, or thermostat stuck closed or nearly so. You're right; it ain't rocket science.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Any update ?
Nothing definitive, meaning the bike is still at the dealer.

It's taking longer than expected because after they swapped the radiator to no avail they had to look at the water pump. Apparently a water pump failure is unheard of on the 1200 especially on a basically new bike so they were reluctant to consider it. Furthermore, Triumph needed one of their "main" technicians to clear it under warranty since it's not a component know to cause issues, so they had to wait for a specific person to show up from local HQ before taking the pump out.

Disassembling they noticed it was defective and water circulation was compromised, which would explain everything.

This is the official story from the dealer, they are hoping to hand over the bike in working order today or tomorrow, let's see.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
132 Posts
Nothing definitive, meaning the bike is still at the dealer.

It's taking longer than expected because after they swapped the radiator to no avail they had to look at the water pump. Apparently a water pump failure is unheard of on the 1200 especially on a basically new bike so they were reluctant to consider it. Furthermore, Triumph needed one of their "main" technicians to clear it under warranty since it's not a component know to cause issues, so they had to wait for a specific person to show up from local HQ before taking the pump out.

Disassembling they noticed it was defective and water circulation was compromised, which would explain everything.

This is the official story from the dealer, they are hoping to hand over the bike in working order today or tomorrow, let's see.
good luck
Id ask them to see the water pump and show you what was defective--say hey, Im curious can you show me that old pump and point out what is wrong with it :). I hope they found issue but this is a strange one
let us know -best wishes to a permanent fix.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
692 Posts
Anxiously waiting to here if the as been resolved.
As for the Lemon Law, that would be out of bounds for this issue because you tinkered with the CAT.

Paul
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,041 Posts
Anxiously waiting to here if the as been resolved.
As for the Lemon Law, that would be out of bounds for this issue because you tinkered with the CAT.

Paul
My T120 stopped shifting and was repaired under warranty well after decat. I never brought decat up. The only thing the dealer asked about was whether the bike had been dropped on its left side. (It hadn't.) The tech noticed though, and asked how I liked the decat. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
I can finally report I have my bike back and it runs better than ever.

Had the chance to speak with the mechanic who actually did the work on the bike and he told me the impeller was separated. They have never had this problem before and they had no insight over how it happened beside "faulty part".

Having ridden the bike now another 300kms today, with warmer temps, I can certainly say the bike is running a lot cooler, the fan barely comes on and only in heavy start/stop, beside temps are bang on 100C.

I remember the first day I had the bike I had the feeling the fan was on A LOT, and this was certainly true compared to now, so maybe the pump never really worked properly.

Now the bike has new temp sensor, thermostat, radiator and water pump :p

Good thing it happened in winter and the bike never actually overheated, this failure in the summer heat would have meant a cooked engine.

Anyway, thanks to everyone for the support, glad they fixed it and hoping its a freak issue, the bike is a dream with xpipe and modified IAT, looking forward to many more kilometers!
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top