[Dr. Zo]

I recently acquired a Rickman Metisse, MK 3 frame and some other of the parts, bodywork from Rickman. This frame has a 2009 date, and along with the frame I've got a 1967 T120R engine that was recently rebuilt, and a TR6 single carb head that is newly refurbished. I'll soon be getting around to putting this together and appreciate any inmates with experience with this sort of thing to chime in. Thanks!

 

[Missouri Bob]

The current issue of Motorcycle Classics has an article with photos of a ex-police Metisse that has been converted to a proper cafe bike.

 

[Dr. Zo]

The current issue of Motorcycle Classics has an article with photos of a ex-police Metisse that has been converted to a proper cafe bike.

OK, thanks for the tip!

 

[Steve Highfield]

Very Nice!!

 

[ncthruxton900]

Great machine, wish I had one!!

 

[Dr. Zo]

In case any of you have experience with BSA Quick Detach rear hubs, the rear wheel for this bike has that as its hub. Unfortunately the axle that comes with the hub, has a stepped shoulder close to the end of the axle, and the axle will therefore not fully fit into the Rickman swing arm. I've gotten the advice that I'll likely need to have it turned down on a lathe as well as it may need to be shortened a bit. In case any of you inmates has experience with this specific issue I'd appreciate hearing. I also wonder if there is some off the shelf fix for this that someone might know about? Thanks for any comments!

Great machine, wish I had one!!

Yes, very cool, never thought I'd have one, now to make it right.

 

[Dr. Zo]

Photos of the above:

 

[Dr. Zo]

So it has become apparent on my rear axle that it is not long enough. I assume it is a stock BSA 2 piece, QD hub. So the rear wheel dropouts on a BSA are narrow blades and the Rickman swingarm axle through holes are wider and tubular. That means there is somewhere, hopefully, a 2 piece axle that will fit this swingarm. I suppose getting in touch with Rickman or Wasp is the way to go. However if there is some other option that someone here knows about I surely be interested. The previous owner, when explaining the parts, assumed the old axle would work with a bit of machining. Thanks for any advice.

 

[Dr. Zo]

The engine I have for my Rickman build was recently rebuilt, well a few years ago - then run briefly - then taken out of a Triumph “Chopper” and sold to the PO from whom I purchased it. It is a 1967 T120R motor. May last build was a 1967 motor but had a few differences I hope some inmates can help me sort before I go too far. I have a single carb head for this, newly refurbished.

So, first thing is the stator wire comes out of the primary case differently than my other build. Rather than coming out of the top of the case, it comes out centrally and drops down through the area where the drive sprocket is housed. So, I am wondering the best way to route this back up to the top, where I’ll have an electronic ignition.

Secondly, in the primary inspection hole/oil fill hole, the PO has this interesting device assembled, that is a valve of sorts. I’m wondering the purpose/utility of this device.

Thank you for your advice and comments.

 

[StuartMac]

Hi,

1967 T120R motor
stator wire comes out of the primary case differently than my other build. Rather than coming out of the top of the case, it comes out centrally and drops down through the area where the drive sprocket is housed. So, I am wondering the best way to route this back up to the top

Triumph 350/500 workshop manual, .pdf page 51 shows the wires passing through a clip bolted to the underside of the engine; however, I cannot find the clip shown or listed in parts books :-

. If your Rickman's engine has a threaded (1/4"BSF?) hole in the correct position, try the 70-1509 "Clip" normally used on the stator cable inside the primary?

. If your engine doesn't have a usable threaded hole in about the correct position, I'd pull the alternator cable relatively tight and zip-tie it to the timing-side frame tube under the engine, so the cable is pulled as far away as possible from the chain and sprocket.

However you are able to secure the alternator cable, the bullet terminals are likely to be under the engine ... I'd cut 'em off and replace with (a) modern waterproof connector(s) (say from jetski electrics?); however, select a connector type from which the thin individual terminals can be removed ... so, if you ever need to remove the stator from the primary, you can unclip the actual terminals on the ends of the wires so they can be pulled through the crankcase holes, you don't have to cut off the terminals, shorten the wires.

primary inspection hole/oil fill hole, the PO has this interesting device assembled, that is a valve of sorts. I’m wondering the purpose/utility of this device.
View attachment 800001

Educated guess says it's a one-way valve:-

. Engine builder has converted to '70-on-style vent-the-crankcase-through-the-primary - you should find the standard pre-'70 drive-side main bearing seal is missing and there are three(?) small holes hidden behind the primary chain lower run near the stator in View attachment 800013

. One-way valve'd prevent the crankcase sucking back through the primary when the pistons are ascending; however, not sure I see the point - hose from the valve spigot to the rear of the bike (similar to standard '70-on), the crankcase would actually suck the air-'n'-oil-vapour that'd just been vented, the hose end to atmosphere just allows the pressure pulses to be equalised?

. '70-on standard (no valve):-

.. allows any vented oil vapour that condenses in the hose to drain back into the primary;

.. frame oil tank vent hose is tee-d into the crankcase/primary vent hose, allows oil or condensed vapour to drain into the primary.

Hth.

Regards,

 

[Jim Gregory]

So, first thing is the stator wire comes out of the primary case differently than my other build. Rather than coming out of the top of the case, it comes out centrally and drops down through the area where the drive sprocket is housed. So, I am wondering the best way to route this back up to the top, where I’ll have an electronic ignition.

Secondly, in the primary inspection hole/oil fill hole, the PO has this interesting device assembled, that is a valve of sorts. I’m wondering the purpose/utility of this device.
View attachment 800000
Thank you for your advice and comments.

My 68 stator wire comes out there as well. It's covered with a split tube wire loom and is connected with I THINK bullet connectors staggered to fit through the exit in the primary case. On my bike it is a fat spot in the split tubing like a snake swallowing a rabbit.
The tube gets incredibly shitted up from the chain lube spitting all over. Mine is zip tied to frame members as Stuart explains. I wonder if you can mod that exit to mimic the post 1968 (or so) bikes. Having those connections and wires under there in no mans land basically sucks. Love your project!
EDIT: I have no idea what that steampunk valve is about. I would remove it and make sure you have the original timed breather system intact. It works well and there is no compelling reason to alter it unless you just want to. I would look that engine over for other "great ideas" the PO had.

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[Dr. Zo]

StuartMac and Jim Gregory,

Thank you for these great explanations. Amazing how these engines can be different, both from original and as altered by PO's.

Regarding an underside clip or appropriate threaded hole to affix one beneath the engine - this does not exist on my cases. So the routing suggestions are appreciated and I'll have to see how this can be done with this Rickman frame.

Yes on finding some narrow and watertight connectors for the stator wires - seems crazy to have this routed under the engine in the first place.

On crankcase venting, thanks to your advice I found the 3 small holes that a PO must have drilled to vent the crankcase through the primary (see photo). So I am assuming there is no main bearing seal as well since I can't see it with it assembled as such. I suppose with the 3 holes it would not really matter if there were a seal, but if there was it would be unnecessary.

I have also noticed that the vent tube from the primary, that also exits through the bottom of the engine, is blocked off. Could that possibly be a reason for the "steampunk" valve at the top of the primary?

So this engine is going into an oil in frame Rickman, so I'm trying to figure out how to attach the oil lines properly as well as how it is to be vented. As you can see in the photo, there is the "oil out" fitting to the OIF at the bottom of the engine. Then there are what seem to be 2 "oil in" fittings at the top of the frame. (photos).

Thanks again for any comments/advice!

 

[Slippery Sam]

StuartMac and Jim Gregory,

On crankcase venting, thanks to your advice I found the 3 small holes that a PO must have drilled to vent the crankcase through the primary

Those 3 small holes are too low to use with a chain. They are below the bottom chain run and so the chain won't receive any lubrication. I've attached your picture (rotated) and also a picture showing where they should be. They need filling with JB Weld or similar and re-drilling higher up.

 

[Dr. Zo]

Those 3 small holes are too low to use with a chain. They are below the bottom chain run and so the chain won't receive any lubrication. I've attached your picture (rotated) and also a picture showing where they should be. They need filling with JB Weld or similar and re-drilling higher up.

View attachment 800035

View attachment 800036

Sam, thanks for the info. I think the 3 holes are not to provide lubrication to the chain, but to vent the crankcase pressure into the primary case. I always thought the level of the oil in the primary was what mainly lubricated the primary chain. Also, (see new photo) there is an oil line that is directed at the chain, located near where the stator wires exit the case. I'm pretty new to this, having only rebuilt one engine, so may be off on my understanding. In the case of this engine, that was not built by me, it looks like the PO wanted to convert it to a 70's and later motor where the crankcase vents into the primary. I didn't think the 3 holes had anything to do with lubing the chain, except maybe to keep the primary oil level at the right level. Open for thoughts on this!

 

[StuartMac]

Hi,

off on my understanding

crankcase venting
found the 3 small holes that a PO must have drilled to vent the crankcase through the primary

Uh-uh, the crankcase vents into the primary through the drive-side main bearing. All triples and '70-on twins, then the primary case works as a plenum chamber, the air flow slows, oil droplets vented from the crankcase should condense and fall to the bottom of the primary. Plus, as I say, the oil tank vents into the primary and, certainly on the OIF, under braking, oil could run from the frame down the vent hose into the chaincase.

Chain primary, the bottom run must be through some oil, to lubricate the chain and it splashes the oil around to lube the clutch rollers. However, you don't want so much oil in the primary it reaches the spinning alternator rotor causing power-sapping drag. The three holes are to allow excess primary oil to drain into the crankcase before the level reaches the rotor, not to vent the crankcase into the primary.

3 small holes are too low to use with a chain. They are below the bottom chain run and so the chain won't receive any lubrication. I've attached your picture (rotated) and also a picture showing where they should be. They need filling with JB Weld or similar and re-drilling higher up.

Ime (small), the three small holes are in position for a belt primary? Then you don't want its bottom run through any oil, holes that low allow any oil that enters the primary to drain straight out again into the crankcase.

vent tube from the primary, that also exits through the bottom of the engine, is blocked off.

That would've been the original timed crankcase vent (as on your other engine?); the crankcase vented through the hollow inlet cam, which drove a vent that was open when the pistons were descending and shut when they were ascending.

possibly be a reason for the "steampunk" valve at the top of the primary?

Proverbial 'solution in search of a problem'? As I posted earlier, primary simply venting into a hose connected to the filler hole, hose routed to the back of the bike, the crankcase will simply blow and suck mostly the same air (in the primary and the hose), just the pressure pulses will go to atmosphere.

In the 1960's, before Meriden changed the twins' crankcase venting, leaving out the drive-side main-bearing seal and drilling the holes between crankcase and primary was such a popular 'tuning' mod. in the US, at least one of importers marketed an accessory screw-in filter to replace the standard primary filler plug.

engine is going into an oil in frame Rickman, so I'm trying to figure out how to attach the oil lines properly as well as how it is to be vented
"oil out" fitting to the OIF at the bottom of the engine
2 "oil in" fittings at the top of the frame.

Educated guess says:-

. View attachment 800029 feeds the engine from the frame;

. View attachment 800030 , one is the return from the engine to the frame, the other is the frame vent?

In the case of this engine, that was not built by me, it looks like the PO wanted to convert it to a 70's and later motor where the crankcase vents into the primary.

Mmmm ... as above, long before Meriden did it officially from late '69, crankcase venting into primary rather than through the timed breather was a mod. by racers, that spread to wannabes; GB had similar, with (before Easy Rider) owners aping road racers, bolting 'clip-on' handlebars half-way down the fork legs, gearshift and rear brake levers by the pillion footrests ...

Hth.

Regards,

 

[Slippery Sam]

Sam, thanks for the info. I think the 3 holes are not to provide lubrication to the chain, but to vent the crankcase pressure into the primary case. I always thought the level of the oil in the primary was what mainly lubricated the primary chain. Also, (see new photo) there is an oil line that is directed at the chain, located near where the stator wires exit the case.

Re the highlighted text above - No. The 3 holes are oil drain holes and they are too low.

Your engine case have been modified from the earlier, timed breather system to the later open breather system.

Originally your engine would have had an oil seal adjacent to the drive side main bearing to prevent oil from the crankcase migrating into the primary chaincase which would have had it's own oil supply entirely separate from the engine oil system.

From 1970 onwards the timed breather was discontinued. The oil seal adjacent to the drive side main bearing was deleted and the engine breathed through the main bearing, into the primary chaincase and then out through a pipe which runs to the rear mudguard. This means that the crankcase and primary case are connected and so any oil blowing through the main bearing would eventually overfill the primary case. To compensate for this the 3 small holes were drilled to let any excess oil in the primary case drain back into the crankcase. The oil line which is directed at the chain merely collects oil that is flung off the clutch assembly and drips it onto the chain.

Because your 3 holes are too low, the chain will run dry as the oil level will below the lower chain run.

As Stuart has mentioned, your cases have been modified to run a dry, belt primary drive. DO NOT use a chain unless you plug those 3 holes and drill them higher up as per the picture I posted above.

 

[Slippery Sam]

I didn't think the 3 holes had anything to do with lubing the chain, except maybe to keep the primary oil level at the right level. Open for thoughts on this!

Correct! But they too low, the chain will run dry.

 

[Dr. Zo]

Hi,


Uh-uh, the crankcase vents into the primary through the drive-side main bearing. All triples and '70-on twins, then the primary case works as a plenum chamber, the air flow slows, oil droplets vented from the crankcase should condense and fall to the bottom of the primary. Plus, as I say, the oil tank vents into the primary and, certainly on the OIF, under braking, oil could run from the frame down the vent hose into the chaincase.

Chain primary, the bottom run must be through some oil, to lubricate the chain and it splashes the oil around to lube the clutch rollers. However, you don't want so much oil in the primary it reaches the spinning alternator rotor causing power-sapping drag. The three holes are to allow excess primary oil to drain into the crankcase before the level reaches the rotor, not to vent the crankcase into the primary.


Ime (small), the three small holes are in position for a belt primary? Then you don't want its bottom run through any oil, holes that low allow any oil that enters the primary to drain straight out again into the crankcase.


That would've been the original timed crankcase vent (as on your other engine?); the crankcase vented through the hollow inlet cam, which drove a vent that was open when the pistons were descending and shut when they were ascending.


Proverbial 'solution in search of a problem'? As I posted earlier, primary simply venting into a hose connected to the filler hole, hose routed to the back of the bike, the crankcase will simply blow and suck mostly the same air (in the primary and the hose), just the pressure pulses will go to atmosphere.

In the 1960's, before Meriden changed the twins' crankcase venting, leaving out the drive-side main-bearing seal and drilling the holes between crankcase and primary was such a popular 'tuning' mod. in the US, at least one of importers marketed an accessory screw-in filter to replace the standard primary filler plug.


Educated guess says:-

. View attachment 800029 feeds the engine from the frame;

. View attachment 800030 , one is the return from the engine to the frame, the other is the frame vent?


Mmmm ... as above, long before Meriden did it officially from late '69, crankcase venting into primary rather than through the timed breather was a mod. by racers, that spread to wannabes; GB had similar, with (before Easy Rider) owners aping road racers, bolting 'clip-on' handlebars half-way down the fork legs, gearshift and rear brake levers by the pillion footrests ...

Hth.

Regards,

Thanks StuartMac. I appreciate your very complete descriptions. I am still trying to understand how all of this works. So if you will mind my need to explain what I think I know - thanks.

Regarding crankcase venting, which is needed in these engines to vent excess pressure in the crankcase that can build up due to the engine running and would impair performance and might affect seals, gaskets, etc, if left unvented.

Before late 1969 crankcase venting is/was done through the timed breather (as on my other 67 build) which runs through the mechanism on the primary side of the intake cam. As the cam rotates, it allows an on/off venting of the crankcase as the cam rotates the rotary breather valve. This venting is directed through the breather pipe with connects to the breather extension pipe which exits at the bottom of the engine. This pipe can be routed several ways I suppose - in the case of my first/other engine rebuild I routed it through a T fitting into the top of my oil tank, and beyond. This is sufficient for engine venting.

After late 1969 the crankcase seal between the crankcase and primary was removed/not used, and this allowed venting of the crankcase into the primary. So, at this point is that all the venting needed? Did the primary now need to be vented and if so how?

The drilling of the 3 small holes in the primary then was only to allow oil in the primary to be regulated by the oil in the crankcase? So does that mean that prior to this the oil in the primary was primarily determined by how much oil the owner put into the primary, and assuming it was checked once in awhile it would be good? And these 3 small holes needed to be drilled at the proper level, so that oil would reach the primary chain but not any higher and mess up the stator, clutch, etc. ?

I suppose the main issue for me now is regarding how I resolve the venting issue with this motor. I was hoping not to have to disassemble the motor.

So, I have these 3 small holes, which are apparently drilled to low in the case to allow proper lubrication of the primary chain. If I keep a chain, which I am planning to do, do these need to be filled in?

I could also unplug the vent pipe and route it as normal, through the bottom of the engine. If I did this I would remove the "steampunk" fitting on top of the primary and seal it with a regular inspection cover.

I can't really get a look at the crankshaft end with the stator, etc., installed, so do not know if there is a seal on this crankshaft bearing.

OK, enough of my complaining for now!

 

[Slippery Sam]

The drilling of the 3 small holes in the primary then was only to allow oil in the primary to be regulated by the oil in the crankcase? So does that mean that prior to this the oil in the primary was primarily determined by how much oil the owner put into the primary, and assuming it was checked once in awhile it would be good? And these 3 small holes needed to be drilled at the proper level, so that oil would reach the primary chain but not any higher and mess up the stator, clutch, etc. ?

Correct.

 

[Slippery Sam]

So, I have these 3 small holes, which are apparently drilled to low in the case to allow proper lubrication of the primary chain. If I keep a chain, which I am planning to do, do these need to be filled in?

Yes.