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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Been away for a while due to illness - ok now and back to the bike. In an attempt to resolve the snatchy throttle issue on my specific bike (08 efi NH Togas & bellmouth) I have been speaking directly with Triumph technical dept. and my local dealer. They have both been helpful and informative throughout. I was concerned with the possible existance of a pre cat in the headers (blueing just in front of the weld).

What was surprising is that they are absolutely insistant that all efi Bonnies, worldwide have pre-cats in the headers? and they strongly do not recommend removing the SAI. They assure me that this "will" eventually result in collapse of the pre-cat.

How long eventually is, no one seems to know.

I am aware that many are successfully removing the AI (mine is currently temp. plugged, but quickly reversable). I also understand that folks have run pipes chains etc through the headers in the USA - I don't profess to understand why this is possible if a pre-cat exists in these bikes? others may have more idea's than me about this.

I have just about resolved my own throttle issues by just moving to the Arrow 2 into 1 map, very little snatch with or without AI intact. The by product is that this map is much better right through the rev range than the TORS or the base map, again more torque and power and a little smoother in the mid range.

The throttle is still "sensitive" as are most efi throttles, but the savage snatch is gone.

So I will be re-connecting my SAI this morning.

Please don't shoot the messenger, take it up with triumph.

Phil
 

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re

Did you try the arrow 2 into 2 remap before the 2 into 1 map and get snachy throttle??

Im asking as i should receive my preds for my 09 fuel inj this week , and they said use the 2 into 2 arrow triumph map
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Sorry snowyrock I didn't. I've had the bass map, the tors and now the 2 into 1. The 2 into 1 is the best to date with my particular setup.
I suggest you discuss it again with those that suggest the 2 int 2 and ask what their experience with it is, and have they tried the 2 into 1 with that exhaust - you will soon discover from their response if they are just guessing (nothing wrong with that as long as you tell people).

Good luck,
Phil
 

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Good post Phil. Not that it would change your mind to reinstall AI, but it maybe a worthwhile exercise to remove one of your silencers and run an air hose up from the silencer end to the cylinders as those that have done this in the US at least, do not report any obstruction which would be the pre-cat. I believe one poster in Europe has done this and noted an obstruction however.

You mention bluing by the weld. (see pic below) I am presuming you mean the weld in the header below the motor..is that right? If the cat exists down there in the straight section not far from the open attachment to the silencer, why couldn't this be hogged out?

I haven't written that my base tune bike with Tors and AI removed isn't snatchy but frankly I never noticed any snatchiness on my bike but a suggestion is...if you have a lingering abruptness to the throttle which likely will be further aggravated by reconnecting AI, you may consider adding a Power Commander.
Best,
George
 

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Sorry snowyrock I didn't. I've had the bass map, the tors and now the 2 into 1. The 2 into 1 is the best to date with my particular setup.
I suggest you discuss it again with those that suggest the 2 int 2 and ask what their experience with it is, and have they tried the 2 into 1 with that exhaust - you will soon discover from their response if they are just guessing (nothing wrong with that as long as you tell people).

Good luck,
Phil
Quite right...a guess. Intuitively, one would think the 2 into 2 map maybe better for aftermarket pipes on each side of the bike. Some have reported that the Arrow 2 into 1 map is the best map for all aftermarket pipes. The disconnect is fueling versus throttle response. At the end of the day ridability trumps nth degree horsepower. 1 to 2 hp at 6K rpm will hardly be felt however a snatchy throttle will be endured with every thottle twist. This is why I haven't gone away from the base map.
Cheers,
George
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Good post Phil. Not that it would change your mind to reinstall AI, but it maybe a worthwhile exercise to remove one of your silencers and run an air hose up from the silencer end to the cylinders as those that have done this in the US at least, do not report any obstruction which would be the pre-cat. I believe one poster in Europe has done this and noted an obstruction however.

You mention bluing by the weld. (see pic below) I am presuming you mean the weld in the header below the motor..is that right? If the cat exists down there in the straight section not far from the open attachment to the silencer, why couldn't this be hogged out?

I haven't written that my base tune bike with Tors and AI removed isn't snatchy but frankly I never noticed any snatchiness on my bike but a suggestion is...if you have a lingering abruptness to the throttle which likely will be further aggravated by reconnecting AI, you may consider adding a Power Commander.
Best,
George
Yes, thats the weld George. I have a fair bit of blueing along what appears to be the length of the pre-cat - about 3 or 4 inches. I ran a hose along some time ago and there is something catching/obstructing. But a hose or similar would not be able to detect if the pre-cat were to be annular of say 1/4" or similar section, with a hollow core, after all it is a pre-cat and the major cat is (or was) in the silencer.

Now i'm only speculating here, but would it be a possibility that this cat is annular and exists on all bikes, thus allowing a hose or chain to pass through from the header end, but possibly fouling on the lip if inserted from the silencer end. I guess until someone shoves a Borescope up the pipe or cuts one open we won't be sure - but I have no reason at the moment to disbelieve the Triumph technical support at Hinckley ( I had the conversation this morning - the guy new his stuff - I have developed a very good bulsh..t meter) that they exist - it would be nice if they were to be proven wrong.

I don't at this time wish to risk overheating and thus collapsing the pre-cat in the header and blocking a pipe with the debris so until more is known I have re- assembled the AI. Or maybe i'm way off track here - anyone else know more about pre-cats.

I've, now experimented with and without the AI using the arrow 2/1 map and there is very little difference - the response is good enough for me with just the the re-map and the AI intact, so until I find out for sure about the cat or find a way of removing it i'll stick for now.

I understand your rationalle for sticking with the base map George - you have a nicely running bike with a good throttle response - be happy. I highly recommend the arrow map - I have found it a big step up even in the lower mid range - maybe it just sits nicely with the NH togas and bellmouth?

The whole EFI knowledge about tuning on these bikes is developing slowly.
Phil
 

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FWIW, I have the Arrow 2 into 2 system installed, which comes with its own headers. and am running the requisite Arrow 2 into 2 map. There is no weld and my pipes are not blue. There is a very small area right where the header meets the engine that has a slight bluing, but that's it. There is no popping on decel at all - even when I rev up to redline and let the rpms drop all the way down. The throttle isn't "snatchy" either - it's VERY smooth. With that said, I can't imagine that running one of these maps with stock pipes would solve any problems. If anything, I would imagine it would cause you to run rich. Sure, this might alleviate the snatchiness of the throttle, but it could end up in fouling your plugs too.
 

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The whole EFI knowledge about tuning on these bikes is developing slowly.
Phil
Tuning these bikes is just like tuning any other EFI bike. When you go with an aftermarket exhaust/pipe, you either need a map that is supplied by that company (such as the Arrow) or you need to install a power commander and run it on a dyno to tune it properly.
 

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FWIW, I have the Arrow 2 into 2 system installed, which comes with its own headers. and am running the requisite Arrow 2 into 2 map. There is no weld and my pipes are not blue. There is a very small area right where the header meets the engine that has a slight bluing, but that's it. There is no popping on decel at all - even when I rev up to redline and let the rpms drop all the way down. The throttle isn't "snatchy" either - it's VERY smooth. With that said, I can't imagine that running one of these maps with stock pipes would solve any problems. If anything, I would imagine it would cause you to run rich. Sure, this might alleviate the snatchiness of the throttle, but it could end up in fouling your plugs too.
Pure nonsense. I could go into excruciating detail why this is false but I have explained it several times and don't think you would ever get it.
George
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
[
FWIW, I have the Arrow 2 into 2 system installed, which comes with its own headers. and am running the requisite Arrow 2 into 2 map. There is no weld and my pipes are not blue. There is a very small area right where the header meets the engine that has a slight bluing, but that's it. There is no popping on decel at all - even when I rev up to redline and let the rpms drop all the way down. The throttle isn't "snatchy" either - it's VERY smooth. With that said, I can't imagine that running one of these maps with stock pipes would solve any problems. If anything, I would imagine it would cause you to run rich. Sure, this might alleviate the snatchiness of the throttle, but it could end up in fouling your plugs too.
The 2 into 1 map is different to the 2 into 2, and the silencers I have NH Togas, are very free flowing, possibly more so than the Arrow 2 into 2 as the Togas are not road legal as I believe the arrows are.

My plugs and exhaust are clean and it runs amazingly well, it would not do so were it running rich.
The 2 into 1 tune has been used and recommended by many since it first became available for the efi bikes. I think Xchoppers (where are you now) was the first to post re its usefullness with the Togas on his 50th anniversary bike about 8 months ago - he also knows his bikes very well.

Glad you like the arrow system, I wanted the classic looks and sound of NH togas on my T100 and just doing the final tweaks to get it running perfectly.
Phil
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Tuning these bikes is just like tuning any other EFI bike. When you go with an aftermarket exhaust/pipe, you either need a map that is supplied by that company (such as the Arrow) or you need to install a power commander and run it on a dyno to tune it properly.
I think you should read some of George's previous posts on how closed loop efi works. The base map can be used with aftermarket systems, it may not be optimised for aftermarket systems but it is designed to meet emission regs and works fine. A PC is NOT essential.

There is no specific map for NH togas so it is a matter of using base or one that is designed for some other system - experimentation - part of the fun, and loads more interesting than throwing money at problems.
Cheers
Phil
 

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Phil,
More good points. Indeed the learning curve is developing relative to the EFI bikes which will take some time. There are many unknowable elements...some being...

Do all bikes throughout the world have pre-cats in the headers?
Compelling arguments each way as you have explained. Quite possible that chain test that Dick performed and the air hose test that Frank and others has performed is unaffected by having a small cat welded near the center of the pipe. In other words, not all of the header pipe is obstructed by the cat. This begs the question of course, would a bit more raw fuel due to eliminating AI even degrade a cat configuration like this over time? Unknowable at this point. One dynamic would likely exist however worth mentioning. If the header did plug due to cat melt down, the ECM couldn't get to the A/F ratio dictated by the map and a CEL would be thrown which would be a telltale the header(s) are plugged.

Other thing is...with the kick up in the rear of the headers on these bikes...it maybe be difficult to poke out the cats which are likely welded in. At the end of the day, this may prove to be more difficult than say performing a bafflectomy on a late model silencer because the path to the cat isn't linear.

Best workaround for all of this: Likely install '01-'07 headers on the bike and run a Power Commander. No cats and no O2 sensor bungs.
O2 sensor connectors are shunted...can eliminate AI without concern and likely a freer flowing system with no cats.

A last tidbit relates to why throughout the motorcycle kingdom, a snatchey throttle is reported on new closed loop EFI bikes...almost universal btw and not specific to the new bonny.
It is because of how the architecture for the EFI is written which is pretty primitive. The base map that is burnt into the EPROM is king.
The impercise narrow band O2 sensors which don't work that great only subtract fuel. When they do this, it creates a dodgy throttle.
This is why a Power Commander is effective. It baselines off the factory map and either adds or subtracts fuel without the highly iterative correcting from the narrowband O2 sensors. Also...for a bit more entertainment...have a look at the following thread. It is conjectured that our bikes could run even better by disconnecting the O2 sensors all together...and not even adding a Power Commander. This would make the bike run to the base map completely without ever subtracting fuel. Be mindful that subtracting fuel...what the O2 sensors do is likely only helpful for emissions and not performance. Much more will be learned about EFI in the ensuing months as many motorcycle owners across all brands are removing their pre-cats:
http://www.gsxr.com/showthread.php?t=56177

Best,
George
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Phil,
More good points. Indeed the learning curve is developing relative to the EFI bikes which will take some time. There are many unknowable elements...some being...

Do all bikes throughout the world have pre-cats in the headers?
Compelling arguments each way as you have explained. Quite possible that chain test that Dick performed and the air hose test that Frank and others has performed is unaffected by having a small cat welded near the center of the pipe. In other words, not all of the header pipe is obstructed by the cat. This begs the question of course, would a bit more raw fuel due to eliminating AI even degrade a cat configuration like this over time? Unknowable at this point. One dynamic would likely exist however worth mentioning. If the header did plug due to cat melt down, the ECM couldn't get to the A/F ratio dictated by the map and a CEL would be thrown which would be a telltale the header(s) are plugged.

Other thing is...with the kick up in the rear of the headers on these bikes...it maybe be difficult to poke out the cats which are likely welded in. At the end of the day, this may prove to be more difficult than say performing a bafflectomy on a late model silencer because the path to the cat isn't linear.

Best workaround for all of this: Likely install '01-'07 headers on the bike and run a Power Commander. No cats and no O2 sensor bungs.
O2 sensor connectors are shunted...can eliminate AI without concern and likely a freer flowing system with no cats.

A last tidbit relates to why throughout the motorcycle kingdom, a snatchey throttle is reported on new closed loop EFI bikes...almost universal btw and not specific to the new bonny.
It is because of how the architecture for the EFI is written which is pretty primitive. The base map that is burnt into the EPROM is king.
The impercise narrow band O2 sensors which don't work that great only subtract fuel. When they do this, it creates a dodgy throttle.
This is why a Power Commander is effective. It baselines off the factory map and either adds or subtracts fuel without the highly iterative correcting from the narrowband O2 sensors. Also...for a bit more entertainment...have a look at the following thread. It is conjectured that our bikes could run even better by disconnecting the O2 sensors all together...and not even adding a Power Commander. This would make the bike run to the base map completely without ever subtracting fuel. Be mindful that subtracting fuel...what the O2 sensors do is likely only helpful for emissions and not performance. Much more will be learned about EFI in the ensuing months as many motorcycle owners across all brands are removing their pre-cats:
http://www.gsxr.com/showthread.php?t=56177

Best,
George
Until we find out for sure, given that Triumph has no logical reason for telling us anything other than the truth I think I will have to believe that ALL efi Bonnies even US models have some form of not wholly obstructive pre-cat. I still wonder if it is some kind of hollow cored cat that is welded in and it would make it very difficult to winkle out without cutting and re-welding - only a matter of time before someone does this.

I suspect, based upon nothing more than intuition that the cat would last quite some time with the AI removed - but what do I know. We could probably make a more educated guess if someone could discover exactly how the pre-cat was constructed - anyone?

Yes snatchy throttles on new bikes are here - for a while at least - been there with the BMW's.

I'm reluctant to go with a PC at the moment, and to be honest the bike is going great with the arrow map - now if only I could remove that pesky SAI without worrying about the pre -cat.

cheers
Phil
 

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I think you should read some of George's previous posts on how closed loop efi works. The base map can be used with aftermarket systems, it may not be optimised for aftermarket systems but it is designed to meet emission regs and works fine. A PC is NOT essential.

There is no specific map for NH togas so it is a matter of using base or one that is designed for some other system - experimentation - part of the fun, and loads more interesting than throwing money at problems.
Cheers
Phil
It's likely that the Togas were developed to work with the Arrow 2 into 1 map. I am fairly sure that one of the other aftermarket vendors (BC?) developed their pipes around that map as well.

Look, no one is saying you can't run your bike without a PC or with a stock map. I am saying that to make it run OPTIMALLY you will need to tune your A/F to your specific set up. Biker7 gets very upset with these threads for some reason. But, anyone who has been around EFI bikes for a while knows that optimum tuning is relatively easy and straightforward with a PC3. When I had my 2003 S3 I ordered a Baracudda aftermarket pipe. The vendor said it would work fine with the stock map. Nonsense. It popped like MAD. I tried the TOR map with it, and it ran even worse. I sold the bike eventually, and the new owner installed a tuneboy and custom map and viola - it ran perfectly. And yes, the S3 also had a closed loop EFI system. These systems can make minimal adjustments to your A/F based on things like elevation changes, etc, but not major changes like free flowing exhausts.
 

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I noticed with the "tune boy" program you can set air/fuel targets. Wouldn't this be the better method rather than trying to run in open-loop? Also, most automotive EFI systems run closed loop until a certain load point then it switches to open loop. Does the bonnie efi system do this? I can't imagine that they would run closed loop at full load with a narrow band sensor. However, in the tune boy software I didnt see anything about adjusting the open loop switching point (unless that's what the "F_L switch" table means). Also, I didn't see anything about acceleration enrichment in tune boy. With automotive efi programming this setting is critical for tuning quick throttle openings.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
It's likely that the Togas were developed to work with the Arrow 2 into 1 map. I am fairly sure that one of the other aftermarket vendors (BC?) developed their pipes around that map as well.

Look, no one is saying you can't run your bike without a PC or with a stock map. I am saying that to make it run OPTIMALLY you will need to tune your A/F to your specific set up. Biker7 gets very upset with these threads for some reason. But, anyone who has been around EFI bikes for a while knows that optimum tuning is relatively easy and straightforward with a PC3. When I had my 2003 S3 I ordered a Baracudda aftermarket pipe. The vendor said it would work fine with the stock map. Nonsense. It popped like MAD. I tried the TOR map with it, and it ran even worse. I sold the bike eventually, and the new owner installed a tuneboy and custom map and viola - it ran perfectly. And yes, the S3 also had a closed loop EFI system. These systems can make minimal adjustments to your A/F based on things like elevation changes, etc, but not major changes like free flowing exhausts.
97, i've been around efi bikes since efi first put in an appearance and have owned 7 excluding the T100, and more carbed bikes than I can even recall in the 30 years before. However, they are all a little different even if they are fundamentally the same. To be honest the only real issue at the moment with most people changing pipes etc. is the pre-cat and whether or not it will meltdown with the SAI removed.

The base tune is fine with the SAI removed, the Arrow 2 into 1 is perfect with it intact - no popping clean as a whistle through the range.

If it wasn't i'd look at a PC - had one on my BMW R1150 R great . But at a cost - the purchase, the development of a map unique to NH pipes/bellmouth, the dyno time etc. I don't wish to spend that money when there are other very good, very cheap solutions such as the arrow map and SAI removal at a fraction of the cost.

Phil
 

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I don't mean to follow you around 97 but you write very little that is true. Norman Hyde developed the EFI Togas around the base map, not the Arrow 2 into 1 map...lol.
Popping and proper A/F mixture have very little to do with one another...another misconception. You use the term "optimally" with abandon. To properly tune a Power Commander takes copius testing and unless you really know what you are doing you can degrade performance more than help it.
I can go on and on. I just hate to see the disinformation you spew which adds to the confusion about the EFI bikes...the reason I take exception to what you write.
George
 

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I noticed with the "tune boy" program you can set air/fuel targets. Wouldn't this be the better method rather than trying to run in open-loop? Also, most automotive EFI systems run closed loop until a certain load point then it switches to open loop. Does the bonnie efi system do this? I can't imagine that they would run closed loop at full load with a narrow band sensor. However, in the tune boy software I didnt see anything about adjusting the open loop switching point (unless that's what the "F_L switch" table means). Also, I didn't see anything about acceleration enrichment in tune boy. With automotive efi programming this setting is critical for tuning quick throttle openings.
Henry,
There is a fundamental difference between the Tuneboy and PC.
A Tuneboy preserves the functionality of the closed loop system. This btw isn't good in the context of snatchiness. It is the nature of the closed loop EFI which is relatively primitive on these bikes, to contribute to a snatchy throttle. I haven't connected a Tuneboy to my bike with laptop interface to the OBDII connector under the seat. A Tunebody exposes the A/F tables when the bike runs in closed loop. Again, I haven't done this but it is speculated the EFI on thse bikes only goes into closed loop at idle and at small throttle openings...where incidentally you spend a lot of time riding your motorcycle. If you think about it...this is precisely where the snatchy throttle lives. This is why open loop in the context of snatchy throttle is a good thing. It isn't perpetually leaning out the A/F and creating a discontinuity of fuel relative to air by constantly tweaking injector duty cycle confounded by pertual changes in throttle opeing i.e. air intake. This is why the PC is loved throughout the motorcycle industry for closed loop EFI bikes...provided...the cavaet being...you adjust the PC correctly.

In summary, it is very difficult tweaking the maps without knowing any CO readings. A wideband (Tuneboy preserves factory narrow band O2 sensor operation) would be the way to go however to gain the greatest benefit you would need to datalog with the Tuneboy datalogging program. That requires carting a laptop with you and leaving the Tuneboy cable connected to the bike.

Keihin ECUs use a narrowband O2. One poster reported if you look at the A/F map only the areas that have a target of 14.57 to 14.7 cause the ECU to go into closed loop (use the O2 sensor). About the only time they go into closed loop is idle and small throttle openings. So you could change the A/F values to 14.0 with the Tunebody (which would cause the ECU to stay in open loop aka same thing the PC does by shunting the O2 sensors) and disconnect the narrowband stock O2 sensors and plug in your wideband to do your datalogging and replace the stock sensor... would be another workaround.

Another option would be to have another bung welded onto the exhaust and plug in a wideband sensor when you want to datalog and not have to worry about messing with the stock setup and connections to the computer.

One benefit of Tuneboy is that you do about anything Triumph can do with its datatool and you can make ignition mapping changes also. Triumph's stock maps aren't the best.

George
 

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I don't mean to follow you around 97 but you write very little that is true. Norman Hyde developed the EFI Togas around the base map, not the Arrow 2 into 1 map...lol.
Popping and proper A/F mixture have very little to do with one another...another misconception. You use the term "optimally" with abandon. To properly tune a Power Commander takes copius testing and unless you really know what you are doing you can degrade performance more than help it.
I can go on and on. I just hate to see the disinformation you spew which adds to the confusion about the EFI bikes...the reason I take exception to what you write.
George
If they developed it around the stock map, why would any modifications be needed?

I will respectfully disagree with you on all points above. The only disservice I see to the internet motorcycling community is in posts like yours that say you can get your bike to run correctly with aftermarket pipes by removing the AI and letting the closed loop system take care of it. Sure, there is a chance that you can get your bike to run well by trying a few things, but the proper way - the sure way - is to set a proper map. I am sure you can agree with that, no??

Optimally - by this I mean you take your bike to a tuner and have it custom tuned. If you're lucky, someone will have already done this with your exact set up and uploaded the map to the PC site.

Edit: PC has something called "AutoTune" now that you can install along with the Power Commander. It supposedly tunes the bike while you ride, eliminating the need for a dyno. Pretty cool. I haven't read anything about how well they work, though. http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/powercommander_v.aspx?mk=14&mdl=286&yr=2009

Next, you mention "confusion about the EFI bikes." What confusion?! It's simple - you make a change to the exhaust and you need to retune the bike. You retune with a power commander. It's that simple. You will have people ripping apart their bikes in search of some elusive, cheap solution.
 

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97...in the interest of preserving decorum within Phil's thread which I believe to be an important issue, I will not engage you further. We aren't in the same hemisphere (metaphor) of thinking when it comes to EFI.
Ride safe,
George
 
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