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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Power Commander III install >> '09 Bonneville - pics

First you need to remove the seat and gas tank. The underside of the tank is shown below. Gas will not leak out of fuel line, but if you tip the tank on its side some fuel will drain out of the vent tube. When the tank is horizontal no fuel will leak out, but I recommend you not have a full tank as it is 6 lbs/gallon.



Although the Power Commander instructions call for mounting the unit on the rear fender aft of the battery, I found a perfect unused bracket on the right side of the frame backbone, just aft of the air injection solenoid. In this picture the AI hoses and nozzles have already been removed. Although it is not necessary to remove the gas tank to install a PCIII in the Dynojet recommended location on the fender, it is necessary to remove the tank to remove the AI nozzles and plumbing from the cylinder head. In my case I wanted the AI off the bike pronto, as after the Toga installation the pipes were beginning to blue the first 4"



I used Velcro to mount the "top" of the PCIII to the frame backbone, and used 2 small tie wraps to mount the PC through the 2 threaded holes in the bracket. The center line distance between the holes in the bracket and the slots in the PCIII is almost perfect - sometimes you get lucky! I haven't trimmed the tails of the yellow tie wraps yet for clarity.



The hardest part of the whole job was figuring out how the O2 sensor connectors de-mated. After 45 minutes of swearing and 2 beers later we discovered they come right apart if you talk nicely to them. The next photo shows the O2 sensor shunts that DynoJet provides to allow the system to function properly with the O2 sensors removed. You can leave them in place with the connectors loose, or remove the sensors entirely for a cleaner install.

 

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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
Power Commander III USB install - pics (#2)

The last step is to tie into the TPS trigger. Dynojet supplies a clever splice that allows you to tap the circuit without cutting the wire or soldering. In this picture the dielectric grease is not shown for clarity. In addition to these steps you need to mount a ground wire to negative battery terminal, and disconnect the EFI computer and install the PCIII in series with the OEM EFI wiring loom. These are trivial tasks and no photos are shown/needed. The hole in the airbox for the AI solenoid air feed is shown for clarity; the stock hose was re-installed after the photo. The AI solenoid remains electrically connected and is left to rattle away, but the plumbing is not connected. Biker 7 knows how to remove the solenoid without the bike throwing a CEL; next time I have the tank off I may remove the AI solenoid on general principles.



Tomorrow I will post qualitative results of the PCIII installation - but they are good :) Total elapsed time was about 3 hours, but at least 45 minutes was wasted on trips to the fridge for beer and swearing at the O2 sensor connectors.
 

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"Dynojet supplies a clever splice that allows you to tap the circuit without cutting the wire or soldering."

Do you mean it picks up the pulse from the wire or does it join the in a manner similar to a Scotch lock connector which cuts through the insulation but does not sever the wire? I guess what I want to know is can it be removed with any damage to the original wire?

I'm still trying to decide between a Power Commander and a Tune Boy.
 

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My input is...its a tough decision independent of whether the tie in is by inductance or puncturing the wire which can easily be masked with tape upon removal.
PCIII and tuneboys each have pros and cons. You could perform a value analysis of each but this would only become more confusing. :)
I personally like the tuneboy approach because you can data log and tweak the A/F of existing maps and even dictate when the bike should run in open loop. This retains the O2 sensors and allows more interaction with the environment for preserving A/F targets when the temperature changes. The downside and somewhat unknowable without an A to B riding comparison is throttle response of the Power Commander III maybe better because the O2 sensors are cut out of the loop, i.e. open loop. The PCIII adds or subtracts fuel to the base map without any adjustment from the O2 sensors. This may improve throttle response by taking out the iterative nature of narrow band O2 sensor input...but...your EFI is no longer adaptive. With tuning there is generally no right or wrong, just shades of grey. My opinion is both are good and you will have to pick one. One further downside of the PCIII is maps need to be created specific to altitude and temperature and engine config (mods) which is best performed by dyno tuning as an EFI bike with PCIII is no more adaptive than a carbed bike.
Btw the above is why many simply accept the tradeoff of one of the factory maps...especially if leaving their EFI motors essentially stock. Since there is no immaculate solution to tuning, most simply accept one of the factory maps as a reasonable albeit a clear compromise to what can be achieved by either PCIII or tuneboy.
Lastly, the reason why the PCIII is attractive to me is because of Dick. Dick knows more about Triumphs than most and if this is his choice for tuning, its a good one.
Good Luck,
George
PS: I still haven't decided either. :)
 

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Thanks Biker7

I like the adaptive ability of the standard setup. When I fitted peashooter silencers the fuel map was still good (dyno run to check). I've never experienced any snatch in the throttle response on my bike but then my previous bike was a Buell Lightning XB which could be a bit sudden on small throttle openings.

I'm leaning toward the Tuneboy, I just have a fear of disabling my bike if I don't load a map correctly or it times out. With the PowerCommander you can at least disconnect it and go.

Decisions decisions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
"Dynojet supplies a clever splice that allows you to tap the circuit without cutting the wire or soldering."

Do you mean it picks up the pulse from the wire or does it join the in a manner similar to a Scotch lock connector which cuts through the insulation but does not sever the wire? I guess what I want to know is can it be removed with any damage to the original wire?

I'm still trying to decide between a Power Commander and a Tune Boy.
I think it is a ScotchLock connector, but regardless it has a blade that pierces the insulation locally and allows the signal to be picked up by the PCIII USB. It is not an inductance pick-up.

Dick
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks Biker7

I like the adaptive ability of the standard setup. When I fitted peashooter silencers the fuel map was still good (dyno run to check). I've never experienced any snatch in the throttle response on my bike but then my previous bike was a Buell Lightning XB which could be a bit sudden on small throttle openings.

I'm leaning toward the Tuneboy, I just have a fear of disabling my bike if I don't load a map correctly or it times out. With the PowerCommander you can at least disconnect it and go.

Decisions decisions.
Although I have PC III's on my EFI bikes, I am doing some experimenting with a PC V, a borrowed RH header with a much larger O2 sensor bung, a large Bosch O2 sensor, one of the auto tune modules, and a means to vary the ignition timing based upon RPM and MP. I will report the results in a comparison to the excellent PC III with custom maps.

Dick
 

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dick it will be interesting to see how that works out.These bikes need more timing if the cruves are close to the same or less then the carb bikes.I have not played with the efi bikes yet .To me if you dont run off the O2 sensor you would be better off with good flat slide carbs .If the system cant adj with weather changes how is it any better then carbs?You can adj every throttle opening at what ever rpm but when the weather changes they will all be off wont they?
we need a post on driveablty what really maters .what maters to one guy wont to another depending on how the guy rides the bike.Us old guys tend to change the way we ride the bike to match how it runs as in shft points up and down.some guys are picky they want it to run great at every throttle opening.I want it to go when i hit the gas sing up nice shift around 4000 to 5000 rpm then cruse where it runs smooth and haul ass at wot.trurth be know i bet I dont use but maybe 3 or4 throttle opening .I make sure mine is right at those openings.
 

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Mike...I talked to the guys at Dynojet about the PCV. They will be releasing timing functionality shortly. The PCV is in theory better than a PCIII because it allows monitoring of A/F with a wide band O2 sensor. Even though the narrow band O2 sensors are turned off, you don't have to go to a dyno to determine if your bike is running lean or rich. They are coming out with a realtime A/F display shortly.
If you want adaptability, then the tuneboy is the way to go and you can data log off it...meaning record A/F over time from the O2 sensors which remain active. The only way to determine which bike PCV or tuneboy is better in terms of throttle response...independent of weather conditions....is ride them side by side. Like some of the computers on these bikes...yes we quite adaptive creatures as you mention as well.
George
 

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I think it is a ScotchLock connector, but regardless it has a blade that pierces the insulation locally and allows the signal to be picked up by the PCIII USB. It is not an inductance pick-up.

Dick
Thanks for the clarification. I really like to be able to put things back exactly as they were once I've finished playing with things, or if I get it wrong at least I have a home point to aim for.

Reading about the mods that various members carry out reminds what a scaredy cat I am when it comes to modifing bikes. I guess there are that many ways to do things I get bogged down and settle for enjoying other peoples efforts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
dick it will be interesting to see how that works out.These bikes need more timing if the cruves are close to the same or less then the carb bikes.I have not played with the efi bikes yet .To me if you dont run off the O2 sensor you would be better off with good flat slide carbs .If the system cant adj with weather changes how is it any better then carbs?You can adj every throttle opening at what ever rpm but when the weather changes they will all be off wont they?
we need a post on driveablty what really maters .what maters to one guy wont to another depending on how the guy rides the bike.Us old guys tend to change the way we ride the bike to match how it runs as in shft points up and down.some guys are picky they want it to run great at every throttle opening.I want it to go when i hit the gas sing up nice shift around 4000 to 5000 rpm then cruse where it runs smooth and haul ass at wot.trurth be know i bet I dont use but maybe 3 or4 throttle opening .I make sure mine is right at those openings.
I'm really happy with the rideabilty of the bikes with the PC IIIs, but I'm intrigued by the autotune feature of the PCV. I can not imagine running around with the HUGE Bosch O2 sensor required for auto tune, so I borrowed a header with the correct bung and will allow the PCV to autotune to its heart content, and then compare against the currently installed PCIII. I have both units on the Five Oh right now, and should have some results by the end of the week. My experience with racing air cooled engines (bikes and airplanes) is that a significant amount of advance can be dialed in as long as the MP is relatively low. I'm going to cap it at 45BTDC under these conditions, and 45* will only be reached at high RPM. At higher MP I will allow it to advance only 3-4* beyond the stock curve, and then again only at higher RPMs.

IF, and it is a big if, the bike runs better with the autotune developed PCV than my dyno developed custom map on the PCIII, i'll lock the PCV at a tune level and get rid of the hoary header with the Bosch O2 sensor - and go back to stock headers.

I will not give up throttle response and rideability for a few HP - if I needed to go real fast I'd own something beside 19 Triumph twins:D

Dick
 

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My input is...its a tough decision independent of whether the tie in is by inductance or puncturing the wire which can easily be masked with tape upon removal.
PCIII and tuneboys each have pros and cons. You could perform a value analysis of each but this would only become more confusing. :)
I personally like the tuneboy approach because you can data log and tweak the A/F of existing maps and even dictate when the bike should run in open loop. This retains the O2 sensors and allows more interaction with the environment for preserving A/F targets when the temperature changes. The downside and somewhat unknowable without an A to B riding comparison is throttle response of the Power Commander III maybe better because the O2 sensors are cut out of the loop, i.e. open loop. The PCIII adds or subtracts fuel to the base map without any adjustment from the O2 sensors. This may improve throttle response by taking out the iterative nature of narrow band O2 sensor input...but...your EFI is no longer adaptive. With tuning there is generally no right or wrong, just shades of grey. My opinion is both are good and you will have to pick one. One further downside of the PCIII is maps need to be created specific to altitude and temperature and engine config (mods) which is best performed by dyno tuning as an EFI bike with PCIII is no more adaptive than a carbed bike.
Btw the above is why many simply accept the tradeoff of one of the factory maps...especially if leaving their EFI motors essentially stock. Since there is no immaculate solution to tuning, most simply accept one of the factory maps as a reasonable albeit a clear compromise to what can be achieved by either PCIII or tuneboy.
Lastly, the reason why the PCIII is attractive to me is because of Dick. Dick knows more about Triumphs than most and if this is his choice for tuning, its a good one.
Good Luck,
George
PS: I still haven't decided either. :)
Just found this discussion while searching for information trying to decide whether I should get into the tuneboy group buy so that, if nothing else, I can find out if my dealer is telling me the truth about whether they've done the remapping for the Arrow 2-1 on my SE (I've started to wonder about this given what I found over the weekend regarding the shoddy install on the exhaust - they left the O2 sensors dangling and hidden.)

Have two EFI bikes that might benefit from these gizmos, the SE and a Yamaha WR250R. This year and next I'll be riding the Yammie on the Transamerica Trail, with elevations between sea level and around 11 or 12,000. So the PCIII is out for that bike!
The SE, on the other hand, will just be riding around in the Appalachians.

I just called a local Atlanta dyno tuner, who told me that they'd work with the tuneboy, but doing dyno work with the tuneboy took them much longer because it required turning the bike on and off a lot and so forth.
I don't quite understand what that's all about.
Also, I suppose a grain of salt should be maintained because this company sells PCIIIs.
On the other hand, their price for PCIIIs is $310 installed, which is less than the US dollar price for the tuneboy group buy.

Given the group buy thing still going for the next couple of days, maybe this would be a good time for one of youse who really know what you're talking about in this area to start a comparison thread discussing the different possibilities?:)
 
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