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Discussion Starter #1
Was pulling bike out of garage this morning (very wet pavement) and foot slipped causing bike to go onto left side. Went down very slowly and was able to pick it back up after about 30 seconds to one minute. Was running when it tipped and so I shut it off. When i picked it up I noticed that the shifter was bent some. Bike would not start at all. Lights and all of the electrical seems fine. Kill switch off. But will not start. Will not even turn over. I hit the starter and NOTHING happens at all. On top of that when I was pushing it back into the garage it was difficult to push even with the clutch in. Almost like a gear was half engaged or something. I do a lot of the work on this bike myself, but this is a new one to me. Can anyone please give me suggestions, ideas of what could be wrong etc....? This is my ONLY transportation and I need to get it back on the road asap. Thanks!
David
 

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The bike will not start because it is in gear...pulling in the clutch will not over ride this....you need to get the bike in neutral to start it.

So bend that shifter back out, put in neutral, and the bike will start.

As for heavy feeling with clutch in and pushing the bike, not to worry this would be normal as there is still mechanical drag present, even though the clutch is pulled it.
 

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NOT SO! All new Bonnies should start IN GEAR with the clutch pulled in!

There is a side-stand switch which I doubt was affected.

There is a clutch switch which may be your problem--visually check to make sure the clutch lever & mounting assy (switch is part of this) is not damaged.

If you have never pushed your bike in gear with the clutch pulled in, I would guess that what you are feeling is normal. If you have and it is now much harder than you remember, I would suggest you check the clutch lever again with attention to the cable adjuster and also the other end of the clutch cable and the arm that sticks out of the left side cover. You may need to adjust the clutch for better disengagement.

There is a neutral switch which I doubt was affected. If this were the only problem, you still should be able to start it with the clutch pulled in.

Side-note item: At your next maintenance, you should think about pulling off the "Tip over valve" which is in the fuel tank over-flow hose that comes from the bottom right of the tank (not applicable to EFI models--I do not know the hose arrangement on EFI models; however, there should be a tip-over valve on them, also), and is mounted behind the carbs on the vertical frame piece. Check that this valve is working good and not gummed up with fuel from your tip over. The valve should let fluid flow through it when in the vertical position and stop fluid from flowing through it when in a horizontal or near horizontal position. Reinstall the tip-over valve--it is a SAFETY item to keep you from being a crispy critter!

Good Luck!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks man! Am at work right this second, but as soon as I get back to the bike I will do as you said. I know that it can't be (shouldn't be) much wrong as the bike really went down softly. Am amazed that the shifter bent. Did not affect the shield, bags or anything else, but bent the shifter (one of those fluke things). I will let you know in a few hours how it went. Really appreciate the response.
David
 

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Discussion Starter #5
The feeling when pushing the bike was not normal at all. I have pushed the bike in gear with the clutch pulled in many times and nothing like right now. Also, like you sad, I have started in gear many times and had no problem with doing so when the clutch is pulled in. I will check everything out as soon as I get back home and will let you know this afternoon how it goes. Question....do you think that since the shifter is bent in some (nothing dramatic) that it could have affected the transmission any??
David
 

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I doubt the transmission is damaged any. I did the same to my bike years ago and all I had to do was straighten the shift lever. Some have bent the shift rod the shift lever attaches to when having an unscheduled dismount at speed; however, at zero speed I doubt that the shift rod is bent.

For those reading this that are used to starting their bikes on the side-stand, the bike will not start while on the side-stand and the bike in gear--this is an important safety feature that keeps one from riding off with the side-stand down. Some have even said on this forum years ago that they use the side-stand switch as a kill switch--they just put down the side-stand when stopping while the bike is still in gear...I do not recommend this--I would suspect that the side-stand switch is not sturdy enough for repeated "kill" operations...Triumph even says in their manuals that one shouldn't use the actual kill switch to shut off the bike except in emergency conditions--this one I don't fully understand the reasoning behind.:)
 

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I completely agree with redbird - he knows his stuff by the way - I went through this same thing when I dumped my bike a few months ago - was convinced for a few moments that I had damaged the transmission. Truth was, the bike was still cold, and it was normal clutch drag that made the bike feel hard to push. I bent the snot out of my shift selector shaft too - but I was travelling at a bit higher speed.

I have had that mechanism apart, and there is no way for you to damage the transmission from the selector shaft in a little drop like that. There just isn't a means to transmit force through that shaft into the transmission, doesn't matter how hard you bend it.

Did you bend the gear selector lever, or the shaft that sticks out the side of the engine casing? With a bit of luck just the lever - that's easy to change.

If you want to see what's involved changing the selector shaft, look at this thread:

http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/96919-bent-gear-selector-shaft.html?highlight=bent+gear+selector+shaft

The not starting - did you check the engine kill switch? I'm not taking the piss - when you drop your pride and joy like this it's easy to forget the obvious stuff - I did exactly the same thing. If not that, clutch switch sounds likely like redbird said.

Oh yes - when you have pushed your bike in gear with clutch in - was it warm or cold? Feels totally different between the two situations.

Best wishes and good luck!
 

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NOT SO! All new Bonnies should start IN GEAR with the clutch pulled in!


Side-note item: At your next maintenance, you should think about pulling off the "Tip over valve" which is in the fuel tank over-flow hose that comes from the bottom right of the tank (not applicable to EFI models--I do not know the hose arrangement on EFI models; however, there should be a tip-over valve on them, also), and is mounted behind the carbs on the vertical frame piece. Check that this valve is working good and not gummed up with fuel from your tip over. The valve should let fluid flow through it when in the vertical position and stop fluid from flowing through it when in a horizontal or near horizontal position. Reinstall the tip-over valve--it is a SAFETY item to keep you from being a crispy critter!

Good Luck!
On the EFI there is a tilt switch, this is normally mounted under the seat, its a rectangular item with one set of wires going to it and the words UP printed on the top. you can test it by unbolting it, starting the bike then tipping the switch vertically, if fully working the engine will cut out.
 

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Oops

Mine fell over 2 mo ago the same way sorta. The stand wasnt down all the way & it just slid down! Bent hte hell outa the clutch (which I bent back w/ a pipe) to new. Bent the shifter slightly as well in. Didnt jam, so I bent it back as good as I felt comfy with. Shifts better than before! The clutch will drag when the engine is cold! Starting_ Get it in neutral & try to start clutch out. You may have broken the ign clutch switch? I dont think anything serouos? Just embarrassing more than anything! Let all know!! & BUMMER!
 

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NOT SO! All new Bonnies should start IN GEAR with the clutch pulled in!
Interesting....I just went out in the garage to check......my 03 Bonnie will NOT turn over while in gear....with or with out the clutch pulled in!

I have removed the Safety Nazi kickstand & clutch engagement sensors. Would that have any bearing on the fact that when in gear....the bike will not turn over?

I would not want to put out any false info....just telling it like it is.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
First of all, thanks to all of you for responding. The bike is fine. I do have the slightly bent shifter but that is easily corrected. The bike does start fine now and runs as good as ever. I guess that I was just panicking. I love my bike and it is my only transportation (lucky to live in Florida I guess).

It does, and always has, started in gear. And there is more drag when not running, but still in gear, than I had ever noticed. But I believe that this was just something that I had not paid attention to as I rarely roll it without being in neutral. So when I got this drag after dropping it I just figured the worse. After getting it into neutral the bike seemed to be fine.

Again, Thanks so much for all of the input. This is one awesome site and it has helped me out more times han I can count when doing work on the bike. I have three best references.....the haynes manual, the triumph manual, and the best...this site.
Thanks to all,
David
 

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Dale,

The only thing I can guess on your situation is how you defeated the safety switches is keeping you from being able to start in gear. My guess is your igniter is sensing that the clutch lever is NOT pulled in (ever due to the way the clutch and sidestand switches were defeated), and therefore will only complete the start cycle when your bike is in neutral. The clutch switch and the sidestand switch are interconnected on the wiring diagram.

From looking at the wiring diagram, it looks to me like the circuit is looking for a ground to be happy. If the sidestand switch is jumpered across to defeat it, then the clutch switch which connects to pin 10 on the igniter as well as the pin 9 (the one the sidestand switch connects to) needs to be jumpered across in order for igniter pin 9 to see a ground when the neutral switch is open (bike in gear). With the bike in neutral, igniter pin 10 sees a ground (through the neutral switch which has one leg connected to ground) and is happy. With the bike in gear, the igniter pin 10 ground must come from the sidestand switch via the "Diode Pack", "Clutch Switch", and the "Sidestand Switch". When you jumper across the sidestand switch you are connecting igniter pin 9 to ground. Jumpering across the two wires on the clutch switch would then let igniter pin 10 see the same ground via the diode pack with the neutral switch open (bike in gear).

If you are not confused by now, your brain is a lot younger than mine.:D As an old youngster, I am fearful of defeating safety devices like I used to do in my younger days. The one on the seat of my farm tractor bothers me every time I get on it, but some day I may fall asleep and fall off the thing and be saved by that safety switch that kills the motor as soon as my weight leaves the seat. The two on the bonneville that I would not defeat are the sidestand switch and the tip-over valve in the fuel overflow hose.
 

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Larry:

Thanks for taking the time to look into the situation.

David:

Good to hear that all is well and the bike is back in action.

As for the safety switches....I am so used to checking the kick stand & have always started my bikes in neutral as a habit that I personally could not see the need for these devices, although they have undoubtedly saved more then a few mishaps for others.
 

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Since we know dseely1's ride is okay (glad it is!) - question for RedBird - what you're calling the "tip-over valve" is something I understood to be a preventative measure against liquid gasoline running down into the vapor storage canister (for CA emissions bikes) - it lets vapors but not liquid through when upright - which is kind of the opposite of what you indicated. I figured non-CA bikes had them to stop gasoline spillover in the filler neck from just running down to the road in normal upright conditions, and didn't think this had anything to do with safety in horizontal situations. Guess I'm wrong?

I'm curious now - maybe next time I'm working on the bike I'll pull it and see how the valve behaves if I run liquid through it in various positions.

Jeff
 

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Jeff,

I am not sure I can or even want to try to get my brain around the CA Emissions thing.:) But, to try to answer part of your question, on the Non CA emissions Bonnies prior to EFI, there is a "tip over valve" that is in the fuel overflow line. When you fill up with fuel and over fill it a bit, the fuel WILL run out on the ground if the tip over valve is working correctly and in the vertical position. When one has an unscheduled dismount and the bike is on its side, that overflow line is open to most of the fuel in the tank and the fuel would run out on a hot engine, etc. if the tip over valve didn't prevent this from happening. When in a horizontal or near horizontal position, the tip over valve does not allow fluid to pass through.

The fuel tank vent (inward--that is) is the fuel tank cap. It also is designed to allow air to come into the tank, but not go out of the tank. This is to prevent fuel from running out of the fuel cap when the bike is lying on its side. To check this put the fuel cap threaded part in your mouth and suck on it and air should come through the valve...blow outward and the valve should close. Some fuel cap valves did not work properly and would not let air into the tank and the engine would starve for fuel--'06 appeared to be the worst year for this. This led some to remove the tip-over valve in the overflow line so the fuel tank could vent both ways through this valve without a working fuel cap vent valve.

IMHO, this is the wrong solution to that problem. Snap ring pliers and a couple of minutes and you have the fuel cap apart and one should be able to fix the problem from there.

On my EFI Tiger, the fuel cap, overflow line (to drain off extra fuel at fill-up) and fuel tank venting is handled differently, so I would suspect the EFI Bonnie is handled similarly to other EFI models. The "fill-up overflow line" on the EFI Tiger tank is simply an open line from a port in the tank neck that allows excess fuel to run out on the ground (via a hose down the backside of the engine). Once the fuel cap is closed, this port in the neck is sealed off from the fuel in the tank and no fuel can run out of this open line even when the bike falls over. The fuel tank vent line is open to the tank when the fuel cap is closed and this line has a "tip-over valve" in it similar to the one on the Bonnie.

Guess what one of the first "Technical Bulletins" for the Tiger 1050 was about--yes, the assembly crews mixed up these two lines and the tip-over valve was installed in the wrong line creating a safety issue. The bulletin identified the difference between the two lines by a white painted dot on the one that should have the tip-over valve. In our "monkey see, monkey do world" this was about as effective as the original assembly mess. The hoses were not all installed with the painted dot on the "correct" end, etc, so if one took their bike in to the dealer for this correction, it was a 50/50 crap shoot as to whether it would really be corrected. Mine was NOT correct after the Dealer tech signed off on the technical bulletin for my Tiger.

What little I think I understand about CA emissions is that fuel and fuel vapors should not be discharged to the atmosphere like I have described above. Therefore, there has to be a way to handle fill-up overflow fuel to keep it off the ground and on/in the bike where it belongs...same for fuel vapors. Now enter the cannisters, numerous vacuum lines, and personally, I have never even looked at a CA emissions Bonnie.:D One thing newbys should keep in mind IF they do remove the CA Emissions stuff from their bonnie with carbs--DO NOT plug the hose going from the top of the carbs (this is a fuel bowl vent hose) to the cannister. The carb fuel bowls must be open to atmospheric pressure, and if this vent is plugged, the carbs will flood BIG TIME as in fuel will run out of the carb throats into the airbox and on the back of the engine and on the ground.
 

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Wow - thanks for taking the time to type all that up.

Agreed on the CA stuff. I removed mine - I bought my bike here in AZ yet it was set up for CA, and the dealer had already partially disabled some of the emissions setup, leaving the canister sitting there. The worst part, as I discovered after filling up too high and then leaning right leaving a gas station, was that they left the fitting on the right underside of the gas tank open - so I got liquid gas spilling out over my cam cover but luckily no fire. I researched and determined that this should lead to the fuel check valve - which I was absolutely amazed to find sitting in its location behind the carbs, attached only to the bottom line that led to the canister. I've since altered this setup to resemble the way the non-CA bikes come from the factory (I had my wife's T100, which wasn't setup for CA emissions, to compare with).

Jeff
 
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