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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Got around to sanding out the damage from the right fairing this afternoon.

My question is... It looks like the side fairings use a grey primer, followed by a blue base coat.
Which is a bit odd, the tail section I've been working on only has a color coat sitting on top of the raw plastic.

Pics of the side fairing:




But the paint on the tail section matches the side fairing in direct sunlight.. Am I missing anything here?

I'm pretty sure my bike was repainted by the previous owner, but would this explain the differences in paint?

Tail section:



So.. What the hell do I do? I'm kinda stumped on this one. I'll be ordering the paint from Color Rite, I guess I should ask them?

Anyone got tips for me? The sanding you see is using 320 grit.

Thanks guys.

EDIT:
It seems I've come one step closer to understanding the whacky paint on my bike:

Did a little digging on here and found this:

http://www.triumphrat.net/sprint-forum/102676-car-spray-paint-alternative-for-caspian-blue-2.html

...as Caspian Blue will not be a walk in the park to match!!! It is a three layer pearl that incorporates a white base, followed with the blue on top. It gets its clean appearance by being somewhat transparent, so the white base is partially visible underneath the blue! It’s the same principle for Roulette Green!
So I'm guessing the shop did the grey primer over the white plastic, then the dark blue, then another white primer followed by the caspian blue and clear.
- Jonathan
 

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First off, I'm not sure how the factory went about painting the Caspian Blue or Roulette Green. I'm not sure that I agree with Ferris in that they used a pearl white base and a light coat of blue over that. That could be the case, but it would seem very hard to get a consistent cover of the blue. They may have used a candy technique where the clear is tented with blue and shot over the pearl white. Again, I'm not sure how the factory dealt with that.

The factory primed your side fairing before sealing, basing, and clearing. The shop that repainted the fairing looks to have shot a white sealer over the factory clear, then the blue base and clear. This is quite normal with repainting. If no major bodywork is needed, a shop can sand the clear to scuff it up and then shot sealer, base, and clear right over it.

In your situation, you should prime the area that you have sanded down through the clear. Before doing this, I recommend feather out your sanding area another three inches or so, as you will probably see a valley where you have sanded down to the factory paint if you leave it as it is. You can prime the area that you have sanded where you cut through the clear into the base, and overlap onto the outlying clear a good two - three inches. Let the primer cure, and then block sand the high points down with 220 grit dry and finish block sanding it with 800 grit wet. You'll want to scuff up the rest of the fairing with 800 grit wet for paint adhesion. You’re now ready to shoot the sealer (I'd use white to match the factory blue, as darker sealer will yield a darker finish), base coat (or the white coat and then blue if you follow Ferris's advice), and clear.

When shooting the paint, apply light coats, especially for the primer and sealer, as the new paint can react to the old if you apply too heavy a coat. This can result in wrinkling, bubbling, and/or fisheyes. I'm not familiar with Color Rite paints, but you need to use a sealer if you are using base coat clear coat. Primer and sealer is not the same thing.

Are you using a spray gun or are you getting the paint in spray cans?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks BF. I'm just curious as to white the blue sealer they used is so dark? I guess it's a moot point really. I'm just looking to match the paint that's on the bike now.

I'll feather in my sanding out another 2-3" from the impacted site, primer white, then lay a white sealer, color, then clear.

Do I have this correct? Is a sealer any different from regular paint or is it an actual sealer?

I'm not sure if I'm going to use a rattle can or make the move to go to a spray gun. I'm going to contact a few local shops to see if they can match the existing paint for me.

I'm a bit leery of ordering 2+ (expensive!!) cans of paint from Color Rite for fear that the paint won't match properly. I figure I could get a pint (or have them put into aerosol) of paint from a local paint shop and keep it for future repairs when I encounter them. I still have to sand down and repair the damage to the left side fairing and some touch-up on the two tail pieces.

For the tail section shown, can I just shoot a white primer then the blue base with clear?

Thanks again,

- Jonathan
 

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It looks to me like a white sealer was used, or at least off-white. Common sealers come in white, gray, black, and red oxide. Depending on the base color, the painter will use different colored sealers. You usually don't use the same color sealer and base, as it can be hard to tell if you have full coverage of the base.

The color of the primer is of no concern, as it is covered by the sealer. Sealer is a two part paint--sealer and activator. You should stick with the automotive sealer that is recommended by the paint company or paint shop.

Yes, you have it correct: primer, sealer, base, and clear.

Since the fairings have been repainted, Color Rite paints probably won't match unless the previous body shop did a perfect job of matching the factor paint. I would wager that Color Rite paints won't match even a factory painted bike--not after five years +- of being on the street.

For the tail section shown, I am seeing it broken into halves. If you plan to epoxy these back together and then use filler to smooth out the crack, you'll need to primer that piece also. If you want to paint a piece that has not been damaged, you can sand the clear with 800 grit wet and shoot the sealer, base, and clear over that without needing primer.

The problem with buying automotive paint in spray can form is that you may be able to have someone put the base in a spray can, but not the sealer and clear; the sealer and clear would dry in the can after about one hour. So it's not possible to do a two stage paint job in spray cans; you would need to use single stage paint to do this.

It might be worth your while to check around local body shops and see what people would charge for shooting the paint if you did the prep work. It shouldn't be that expensive, and you would be getting quality two stage paint matched to the existing paint.
 

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There is actually a rattle can clear which is a two part product. It's got some kind of inner chamber you open by pushing a part of the cap onto a spindle sticking out of the bottom of the can. Once it's activated, you have to used it up in two hours or less. I bought a couple cans of it, because the rattle can clear from the auto parts store isn't even a bit fuel resistant, and race gas is one of the most vile, evil substances known to man. It would eat stuff a goat won't touch. But, I'm not sure I really want to mess with this clear in a can, since it's full of nasty stuff and they say you really should wear an air supplied respirator if you are using it. If I had an air supplied respirator, I would also have a pretty good paint booth and spray guns, making the whole rattle can thing pointless. So, I haven't decided what to do yet. The race bike is mostly prepped for paint, with some final filling to do and a final wet sand. The tank took a lot of bondo to get back in shape, since it was free, dents included. The race bike has two tanks, and I might get the second tank ready for paint and hose 'em both down at the same time so if I get really stupid and decide this clear in a can is worth using, half of it won't go to waste.

So, there's more irrelevant information than you ever really wanted.
 

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Well I have had two Caspian Blue Triumphs and I also worked for Dupont Canada in the paint division for a few years.

Triumph uses Standox paint in their factories and Standox is a subsidiary of Dupont.

Caspian Blue is a tri-coat color and uses a white base with a blue and pearl second coat and a clear clear. The white gives the blue a neutral base to build on. That can come from either a primer or a basecoat. The effect will be the same.

Lay down the white, lay down the blue and lay down the clear. BTW there are hundreds of shades of white. Standox white formula number is 247600
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks all for the advice!

I'll let you know what happens once I get back from Los Angeles this weekend... Not sure how much time I'm going to have to work on the paint in the next few days.

I miss riding.
 

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Well I have had two Caspian Blue Triumphs and I also worked for Dupont Canada in the paint division for a few years.

Triumph uses Standox paint in their factories and Standox is a subsidiary of Dupont.

Caspian Blue is a tri-coat color and uses a white base with a blue and pearl second coat and a clear clear. The white gives the blue a neutral base to build on. That can come from either a primer or a basecoat. The effect will be the same.

Lay down the white, lay down the blue and lay down the clear. BTW there are hundreds of shades of white. Standox white formula number is 247600
Good to know Calliway. I figured that was what the factory did, as I've never heard of shooting a pearl base and then a solid darker color over that. Essentially, the blue base covers the white, but because of the use of a white base, the blue appears lighter and more 'electric.' Painters usually use white sealers under bright colors for this reason. My question is why one needs to use a white base, thus shooting two foundation colors of white and blue, and not just shoot the blue/pearl over a white sealer?

So bmw, you are looking at much more straight forward paint job, but you will be shooting four different paints on paint day rather than three: white sealer, white base, blue/pearl base, and clear.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Good to know Calliway. I figured that was what the factory did, as I've never heard of shooting a pearl base and then a solid darker color over that. Essentially, the blue base covers the white, but because of the use of a white base, the blue appears lighter and more 'electric.' Painters usually use white sealers under bright colors for this reason. My question is why one needs to use a white base, thus shooting two foundation colors of white and blue, and not just shoot the blue/pearl over a white sealer?

So bmw, you are looking at much more straight forward paint job, but you will be shooting four different paints on paint day rather than three: white sealer, white base, blue/pearl base, and clear.
That works for me. The info Calliway supplied is excellent. A forum member on SBR posted saying he works for a Dupont shop in San Leandro and can match the paint with a spectrometer.

I might just prep the panels and have them shoot the paint. The job is getting a bit too large for me to handle in my apartment unfortunately. I'd rather spend the money and have the TT back to spec instead of doing a half @$$ job with a rattle can.

Thanks again Calliway!

There is actually a rattle can clear which is a two part product. It's got some kind of inner chamber you open by pushing a part of the cap onto a spindle sticking out of the bottom of the can. Once it's activated, you have to used it up in two hours or less. I bought a couple cans of it, because the rattle can clear from the auto parts store isn't even a bit fuel resistant, and race gas is one of the most vile, evil substances known to man. It would eat stuff a goat won't touch. But, I'm not sure I really want to mess with this clear in a can, since it's full of nasty stuff and they say you really should wear an air supplied respirator if you are using it. If I had an air supplied respirator, I would also have a pretty good paint booth and spray guns, making the whole rattle can thing pointless. So, I haven't decided what to do yet. The race bike is mostly prepped for paint, with some final filling to do and a final wet sand. The tank took a lot of bondo to get back in shape, since it was free, dents included. The race bike has two tanks, and I might get the second tank ready for paint and hose 'em both down at the same time so if I get really stupid and decide this clear in a can is worth using, half of it won't go to waste.

So, there's more irrelevant information than you ever really wanted.
Irrelevant info is still info! :) I have air at home in LA but nothing of the sort here with me in San Jose, I feel handicapped not having all my tools.
 

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Well lets back up a touch here.

Why do they use two different ground coats: They do this because whenever you paint over bare plastic or bare metal you have to seal it and prepare it for paint. When these bikes where painted there wasn't a really good primer that would do both and really, unless most shops that are high end will spray a sealer first and not a primer/sealer. The sealer closes the pores of the plastic and keeps any moisture from getting trapped. The sealer is either wet on wet or wet on dry depending on what they use. Because of the quality of the paint I suspect they use a wet on wet application. That means when the sealer is still tacky they spray the primer over it, let dry, sand, tack cloth and then spray the white paint down. Paint doesn't stick well to sealer so that is why you have the primer down. As far as why the white basecoat instead of a white primer well that is for looks and adhesion again. The white paint would be a flat paint which the blue pearl adheres to really well. Then down goes the blue and then the clear.

Triumph is very thorough on their paint and use nothing but high end paints. Triumphs one downfall is a soft clear. As everyone knows they tend to scratch pretty easy and that is because they have to keep the clear relatively soft to stay on the plastics. If they really hardened the clears then you would get flaking when the plastics flexed.

So you have: sealer - primer - basecoat white - midcoat blue - topcoat clear. 5, yes 5 different paints plus how ever many coats. Usually one coat sealer, one coat primer 2 coats base, 2 - 3 coats blue and 3 coats clear. YIKES!

So when you fix your spots you need to put a primer down if you have gone right down to plastic, basecoat, midcoat and clear. If you are going to spray the whole panel then you only need to prime where you aren't blue anymore. Prime it overlapping an inch over your repair spot, let dry then sand down the overlap. Do the same with your base and your mid then clear the whole panel.

Good luck!
 

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So you have: sealer - primer - basecoat white - midcoat blue - topcoat clear. 5, yes 5 different paints plus how ever many coats. Usually one coat sealer, one coat primer 2 coats base, 2 - 3 coats blue and 3 coats clear. YIKES!

I'm going to disagree with Calliway here. It is mainly due to the definition of ‘sealer’, but also because DuPont is the odd man out when it comes to most automotive paints.

Using DuPont:

When shooting bare plastic, you first put down a bonding agen--consisting of: adhesion promoter/flew agent/tie-coat--which is then allowed to fully cure. This is not called sealer by DuPont or other brands. This preps the plastic and locks in any chemicals/debris so that the paint will stick, flex, and agree with all the other chemicals. When using DuPont, primer is required over the bonding agent, as the primer also acts as the sealer. This is not the case with most other brands (e.g. PPG or Spies Hecker). Once the primer is sanded, you shoot the base coat, followed by the clear coat—all of which are done consecutively waiting for the prior coats to tack-off (begin to cure, which takes around 15-30 minutes depending on temp, humidity, type of paint, etc.). If painting metal, the bonding agent is not needed, as the metal is washed with an etching chemical and then primed.

Using PPG, Spies Hecker, etc.:

The same happens for plastic, in that a bonding agent is put down over the bare plastic and allowed to dry. Primer is not a requirement, but is used to fill in blemishes so that they may be block sanded out. If you do not need primer to fill in blemishes, you shoot the sealer, base, and clear right over the bonding agent. If you do use primer, you shoot the sealer over that once sanded. The sealer is needed to lock in any chemicals or other impurities in the primer or bonding agent that could get into the base coat, acting as a tie-coat; sealer seals whatever would directly touch the base.

In any of the aforementioned brands, it would be incorrect to shoot sealer over bare plastic without using a bonding agent made for plastic, as sealer is not an appropriate bonding agent for plastic; just as it would be incorrect to shoot base over primer in the case of PPG or Spies Hecker, as primer is not an appropriate sealing agent. For DuPont, primer is the sealer.

There are many other ways to shoot the base (i.e. you can shoot base and use a base sealer over it so that you can come back days later to finish shooting the clear rather than shooting the clear before the base cures), but I am commenting on the typical process of shooting base coat clear coat.

I surmise that DuPont uses a white base coat to give the blue a lighter color to cover, whereas PPG and Hecker you can use a white sealer, essentially becoming DuPont's white base.
 

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Semantics and my experience is 15 years old so definitely things have changed.

The shops call it sealer the salesmen called it wash and wipe etc....

Funny thing is Spies Hecker - also a dupont company. :)

Thanks for the clarification. :)
 

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Calliway, I hope it didn't come off as correcting you as much as clarifying for others not as familiar with painting:) One thing not to do is get into a paint debate with a paint dealer!

I'll admit that I'm not a fan of DuPont because of their paint line painting process, but I love Spies Hecker; this has always been perplexing to me that a company owned by DuPont could make something far different from DuPont. Spies Hecker is one of the best automotive paints out there, although pricey.

My father still talks about the legendary DuPont Imron of the 1970-80's, but it's impossible to get that kind of rock hard single stage since the environmental crunch; although it is for the best.:( My local county is actually converting to full water base automotive paints by 2010, which is creating major issues for shops who cannot afford to convert and/or train to use the new process. I've heard the base coats are very touchy, as if the water is not fully evaporated before shooting the clear the peeling/bubbling is horrible. More info than many probably want.:D

So, again, my point was to express the differences between DuPont's system and others for clarification. Good thread though!
 

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Absolutely not BombFactory. I am good and have no problem with being corrected or having things clarified . I wasn't clear that the sealer is actually a cleaner that you wipe on wipe off and not really a coating or coat per say.

Spies and Standox are absolutely amazing paints and yes, unless you are spraying Chroma Premier from Dupont, everything else is middle of the road despite the millions of r and d that has gone into it.

I sold Imron, Imron 5000 and Imron 6000 right up to about 2001 and it was widely used in the Trucking industry up until the waterborn laws came in.

I painted my CJ5 in full Urethane Chroma Premier single stage and it was absolutley fantastic and bullet proof but you pay through the nose for it. I still recommend Chroma Premier today but since SH and Standox are now available in Canada I go Spies.

BTW, the waterborn transition is law in Canada and not sure about the US but all shops MUST convert by 2010 or they are out of business. Body shops notoriuosly are bad payers and tight for money so I can't imagine once they have to change over.

I have no experience in waterborn so I am going to be obsolete next year. :)
 

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I wasn't clear that the sealer is actually a cleaner that you wipe on wipe off and not really a coating or coat per say.
The sealer is in fact a paint coat that comes as sealer and requires an activator. It sprays much like a base coat, tacking off relatively quickly with the same texture.

It will be interesting to see how many small shops stay afloat after the switch.
 

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Are we using the different words for the same thing? Primer and sealer?

The base coat in the case of the Caspian is the white but it is a straight forward paint. The blue is the same paint but blue and with the pearl, then the clear which is the gloss coat. I just sprayed my panels in Standox and there was a primer, a white base coat a blue mid coat and a clear.
 

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Nope. Primer and seal are two different things as far as PPG, Spies, etc. go. Primer does not necessarily lock in impurities in these systems, but acts more as a bonding agent and floating material over metal or bonding-agent-covered plastic. The sealer then locks in all impurities so that the base has a clean surface to adhere to.

In the DuPont system, saying primer-sealer would be a clearer term, as it acts as both bonding agent/floating material and sealer (think of it as a mixture of PPG/Spies's primer and sealer). The white and Caspian blue w/pearl are both bases in terms of DuPont; I think if one was using PPG/Spies, he could omit the white base coat by using a white sealer. That would seem logical, unless the exact color of the DuPont's white base is a neccesity to the finished product. I'm beginning to hate semantics!:p
 

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Alright clear now. I agree that one could by-pass the white base coat. It took three coats of blue to cover the white which tells me that it is to light. I think everyone will now give one of 4 or 7 levels of gray primer to help with the basecoat coverage. A dupont number 2 or maybe even 4 grey would have helped in the coverage and not hindered the pearl.

Dupont did have true sealers for a long time but have moved to a primer sealer but they aren't that good for primers. I actually used other primers when I painted.
 
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