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Hi All,

Its been cold enough here there hasnt been much riding, but i did have a few items to address, sealing up a seep on the gas main petcock that was stinking up the garage, replacing a badge that shook off over the summer, and replacing jets and needles on carbs and new carb boots to the stock airboxes on a 77 t140.

This is in lieu of doing anything regarding oil consumption. Some nice person on triumphrat suggested i put another 2k on my novice rebuilt top end before i admit defeat. I thought that was a swell idea, and so Im using the time to replace some of the parts i used that were 40 years old.

The tank badge was definitely my fault. I had been unable to remove the broken badge bolt as purchased (broke two screw extractors) and before i wrecked the tank, i decided to thread the hole in the ruined bolt with a smaller screw. It didnt hold, and so i lost the original badge somewhere in July. Felt it hit my boot as it winged its way into the ditch, never to be found again.

I managed to use a diamond bit to grind out the rest of the bolt and what had been left of the screw extractor. Very slowly. Made sure to keep well aware of how deep the bolt hole should be. Suprising, the diamond bit shaped like a smooth bolt) ended up grinding out the ruined bolt, and left the original threads. That was a good bit of luck for me. The broken bolt had bottomed out a good 1/8 - 1/4 inch before the end of the threaded hole, so i stayed well away from punching a hole in the tank.... i then made a cheap mans tap to clean the threads out of the old tank badge bolt hole, then used some blue loctite to put it all back together. The replica badges look nice. I dont plan on removing them and would like them to stay put for a while.

For the petcocks, i did get the stock sealing washers, but as suggested here, decided they need a little help. I debated loctite, hylomar blue in the threads, but ended up adding a few winds of pink teflon tape a couple of threads back from the top of the tap. They are solid, hope the seal lasts a little while.

The original carb boots still had enough lip to seal on the carb, but one had lost a good strip of rubber and pretty brittle. New carb boots installed after replacing the needles and jets, which were stock but 40 years original it looked to me. I used amal parts.

The fuel system thankfully not leaking, i decided to start it up.

The new jets and needles did seem to lean things up a bit. I had been running the air screws out 2.25 turns, and they popped badly unlike before, so i have now at least returned to initial stock setting of 1 1/2 turns and after warming up, it idled nicely. It had been running very rich before which was reason air screws were backed out so much.

Unfortunately, looking down at the floor, i noticed some unfortunate quantity of oil where i did not expect to see it. I ended up blowing another oil pressure switch, which began leaking from the crown where the plastic body meets the housing, dripping onto pipe, making a nice smoke. After two bad new Oil Pressure Switches previously installed (60-3719), one broken out of the box, i had reinstalled original switch, and now that is garbaged. I did get 1k out of it.

On the positive side, i think this means i did properly install the relevant oil seals when i replaced the timing cover and im getting good oil pressure... at least this is the way i choose to look at it.

I do have a tapered non standard OPS, but after wrecking a timing cover with it, do not plan on going down that road again.

So, to get up and running again, im in the market for a new 60-3719. Does anyone make this part that could be expected not to fail? How many people run an oil pressure gauge? Are they clearly identified for the 77 OIF bikes? Id hate to buy one and wreck another timing cover. Feeling a bit gun shy about the whole thing. That was an expensive fargle.

But, nice to hear the bike start up again after 1.5 months of silence, working on house projects. Its not leaking so bad i cant listen to it again tomorrow....

Stay warm,

77Salisbury
 

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Hi 77Salisbury, I've noticed after years of working on cars, the first cold snaps (32f & below) sets off all sorts of oil leaks. Darndest thing how it works. Seen it for years. Both oil seals, o-rings, fuel lines & any fuel o-rings. Replacing parts fixes it. When it warms up stops leaking. I've seen this on many Triumph motorcycles as well. Especially from PRT seals & fuel tap seal.

I've not been able to find a stato-seal for fuel tap sold in USA that doesn't leak yet. All my friends have same poor results. We all wrap teflon tape around threads, slide stato-seal over tape. Install with new (or old) seal & no leaks. I use the thin white teflon tape for water pipes & give 5 tightly pulled layers. Hasn't failed me yet.

Regarding oil pressure switch. I'm working on bike with leaking switch as we speak. Slow drip out switch where metal housing is crimped around plastic. Kind of looks like seeping out from around flat connector as well.

I have tap & die of correct size. 1/8-27 NPS. I was considering buying cheapo tapered one & running die down threads & see if that could it into straight thread. Maybe would work?? But would housing be flat enough to seal?? No cheapo switches in stock locally. I don't know they'd be any better. The good quality tapered are same price as Triumph ones.

You are correct, part #60-3719 should be straight threads. Compare with your tapered one. You can see the difference side by side. The straight thread should screw all the way to seal freely by fingers. If it doesn't something is wrong.

Looking a photos of 60-3719 there are a few different "versions" made, meaning the housing and/or plastic is shaped differently, even though they have straight threads & same flat connector.

I would ask a favor of you. Could you please post photos of all the leaking switches. Also any that quit working electrically as well. But state the fault of the switch in photo. I don't know that higher price means better quality.
My hope is we can learn to visually identify the poor quality switches so we can avoid them. Would be better to spend $60 once on a good one, than multiple bad ones.

Doing automotive parts search I've not been able to find straight thread switch sold. Not saying there isn't one made, but I can't find one. I've had them pull some that claimed to be straight at auto parts store. In fact all were tapered.

I'm so feed up with this, I'm going to clean it well & smear thick coat of epoxy over plastic onto both metal housing & far up connector as possible, yet have female connector still fit. I doubt it will hold. but worth a try.

Thing is, owners must not be shy about stating when they get bum parts. If sellers are selling sub standard parts that don't fit, leak or don't work, we need to know about the parts that are no good. Sellers will pressure suppliers to do better if we refuse to buy junk parts.

Thanks for photos in advance.
Don
 

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Unfortunately, looking down at the floor, i noticed some unfortunate quantity of oil where i did not expect to see it. I ended up blowing another oil pressure switch, which began leaking from the crown where the plastic body meets the housing, dripping onto pipe, making a nice smoke. After two bad new Oil Pressure Switches previously installed (60-3719), one broken out of the box, i had reinstalled original switch, and now that is garbaged. I did get 1k out of it.
1000 miles out of an OPS. You did well. The one in my 73 TR7RV this past summer lasted about 200 miles before it started to weep from the plastic/metal thread joint - not the timing cover threads. Fortunately. They are fine.

I've just ordered another - this time from LP Williams (I had an order for some gearbox parts too) but looking at the photos it looks identical to the one I already have. As Stuart says, there's a wholesaler somewhere flogging rubbish parts and they'll keep doing it as long as we put up with it. OTOH, the manufacturer will simply stop making the part and we won't have any more OPSs.

Maybe we should count ourselves lucky - Don's epoxy fix might work. It's got more chance than someone will have finding fancy electronic parts for the Hinkley bikes in 40 years time......

At least we have the option of big hammers and JB Weld. The future Hinkley owners won't.
 

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Hi,
tank badge
broken bolt had bottomed out a good 1/8 - 1/4 inch before the end of the threaded hole,
They do. :( Gk what Meriden were thinking; perhaps the accountants liked the steady orders for new badges from all over the world? As I've long used stainless fasteners from specialist suppliers, I've also long checked fastener measurements before ordering ... the Triumph badge screws are some mickey-mouse measurements around 1/2" overall - barely poke through the badges; :mad: same badges on my T100, I was able to fit 3/4" OA screws also without the ends getting anywhere near the bottoms of the threads in the tank. (y)

Btw, because the screws have a "raised countersunk head", their measurement is "Over All" (OA) from the widest part of the head to the end of the thread.

made a cheap mans tap to clean the threads
Ime, buy the proper taps (and a die). You're dealing with a motorcycle more than forty years old; if you haven't been its owner since new, you've no idea how well or badly PO kept it; however, even if they all kept it heated and dehumidified garages, it's still a forty-plus-year-old motorcycle primarily made down to a price rather than up to a standard. Badge screws are 2BA, it's a common thread on the bike, good tools are cheap.

replica badges look nice. I dont plan on removing them and would like them to stay put for a while.
Ime, they do with sensible-length screws too. Plus you don't have to fight Loctite when you do need to remove 'em ...

petcocks, i did get the stock sealing washers,
not been able to find a stato-seal for fuel tap sold in USA that doesn't leak
Just as a matter of interest, have you tried any hydraulics or compressor suppliers, rather than Triumph parts dealers? Reason I suggest that is the tap threads are 1/4"BSP (British Standard Pipe, which is a straight/parallel thread without adding a second "P"), BSP is an ISO threadform and hydraulics or compressor suppliers probably don't supply their customers with leaky seals? Worst-case, 1/4"BSP OD being a gnat's bigger than 1/2" and Stat-O-Seals being flexible, M13 (13 mm. ID) should also work?

blowing another oil pressure switch,
think this means i did properly install the relevant oil seals when i replaced the timing cover and im getting good oil pressure... at least this is the way i choose to look at it.
:) (y)

in the market for a new 60-3719. Does anyone make this part that could be expected not to fail?
'Fraid they've been a crap lottery for years. :mad:

The only possibility might be similar-looking switches supplied by L.F Harris; in Timing cover plug, @DU75389 identified CBS selling them?

oil pressure gauge? Are they clearly identified for the 77 OIF bikes?
:confused: What do mean by "clearly identified"? No Triumph had an oil pressure gauge as standard, any available are aftermarket, you exercise the same care fitting one as you do fitting any aftermarket accessory.

Fwiw, my T100 has a very similar front-end to your bike; however, rather than the separate speedo. 'n' tacho. brackets each screwed to the top of a fork leg, I fitted a Triples Rule 3-Gauge Bracket; if it's any help, from the webpage:-
Fits:
  • Triumph T140 Twins 1973-1978
Hth.

Regards,
 

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Hi 77Salisbury,
Like you I have had several oil pressure switches fail over the last couple of years on my '77 T140. Each one was the later "Veglia" style switch. I managed to source an original Smiths style switch, which to date is just fine.
I believe it came from Grin Triumph in the UK, part number 60-3719A. Not sure if still available, but it has the correct NPS thread.
Good luck,
Andy
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Hi StuartMac, Andytheflyer, TR7RVman,

Thanks so much for the timely replies and feedback. I have a few replies -

To be fair, I think the only reason I got 1K out of the OPS is it was the original switch to 1981-1982. The two recent copies I had purchased, from CBS, were the modern versions, and the first failed out the box, and the second failed in 100 miles or so. To be fair, CBS covered the failed part which I greatly appreciated. It doesn't look like where I buy the part from matters - CBS and others mention the use of the LF Harris ordered part. To switch things up, I went with another company. Variety is the spice of life. It does not appear that there is a british manufacture of this part. Or any manufacture anywhere that is different than these sub par parts. Maybe I'll get lucky. Anyway, I bought two.

If or when these parts fail, I will be considering the oil pressure gauge kit provided by CBS. I can't imagine these switches make sense as a monthly purchase, like gasoline. It is identified as having the proper bits for the OIF. I realize there is no original equipment gauge to buy.

I really like the look of the bracket for the triple that StuartMac mentioned. Wouldn't mind trying that if I go that route.

If TR7 or anyone else has any luck patching one of the OPS, I'd be happy to hear about how they did it. I've got a few in the junk parts drawer. Anyway, one benefit of having some relevant tap and die set would be to monkey around with the non-standard OPS switch I purchased and try to change the threads on it. Don't know if it was any better made, but I'm not going near it after replacing the timing cover. I understand from some other posts that individuals who knew what they were doing with straight thread/tapered thread ended up successfully installing it, but I did not.

I am purchasing some tools for the bike. At least a momentary glance at buying a tap for this gas tank badge thread it seemed kinda unique and expensive. Perhaps I didn't know where to look, or figure out if it is included in a standard kit. All of the kits in my neighborhood did not include it. At the moment at least, I'm glad I didn't wait for the tap to arrive to work on the badge, as I persevered with the immediately available option and it worked. But, such good fortune has not always shone so broadly upon me.

I do have a thread gauge, and am looking to buy taps and a few other general tools that would make my life easier. I have a number of specialty tools based on what I've done to the bike - the TDC tool, the Timing puller, the time seal installation guide post. There seems to be one other but I can't remember at the moment.

The stainless (I think?) bolts that came with the new badges are two sizes for the 1977. A ridiculously short one for the back edge and an extra long one for the front. Anyway. I've gone ahead and loctited them both and am not interesting in removing them. I'm not painting the tank. I'm not replacing the tank. The tank didn't have any bad rust, no pinhole leaks, did not have to put a sealant in the tank. I cleaned it with vinegar and water soak, sanded some rust out on a few areas near the bottom of the tank, and spot painted it with primer and top coat before polishing and waxing. It looks good enough to me. Duplicolor Ford Medium Blue Mica with a little black gave me a pretty close color match to the original polychromatic blue. The Cold white was looking pretty good until the flying badge scraped out a mark all the way to the steel. that patch is a little more obvious...

When the new parts come in, I'll take a picture of the garbaged switch and share it. It is leaking from the edge where the plastic meets the metal housing.

Best wishes,

77Salisbury
 

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Discussion Starter #7
AndyT140,

I looked - it seems they have the 60-3719 that is the same visually as the part I have been buying in US, and they are out of stock on the 60-3719A.

But, looking at these photos on Grin Triumph, I wanted to compare to the 1970s version of the switch currently on bike (and leaking) and the others that went before. I had a BWD S320 part from auto supplier that has tapered threads, and the modern 60-3719 on the right. So, here are some pictures and I hope they are sufficient quality for TR7RV - it is the best my phone can do. The two other switches failed where the plastic housing meets the metal housing, and the same happened on the 1970s version of the switch, although the plastic housing is much smaller, near the crown of the part.


20210104_161743.jpg
20210104_161020.jpg


But, wonders of wonders, it appears that when I got my replacement 60-3719, I had already put the old one on the bike. I have three recent vintage 60-3719s, two of them clearly a little oil soaked, and one in a fresh little box. I must have purchased the first one when I was reinstalling the bike, then replaced it with a switch that immediately failed, and then went to the spare parts bin to fish out the original.

Looks like I'll be leaving now to go and swap out this switch, then I've got some (hopefully) spares showing up in the mail soon. Fingers crossed it lasts a little while.

Eric
 

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Hi 77Salisbury,
Some pics for you also. Switch on bike is the 60-3719A item from Grin Triumph, which is the original Smiths type switch. Second pic is the "Veglia" style switch type which keeps failing. I have had them fail with oil coming out where the plastic part is crimped into the steel body and also from between the contact blade and the plastic. Pictured next to the "Veglia" switch is my solution to failing switches. It is a "Veglia" part with the plastic parts removed and the hole stopped up with a blob of weld. That will not fail! Means no oil pressure light, but no leak either.
All the best,
Andy
743670
743671
P1030903.JPG
P1030905.JPG
 

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I have tap & die of correct size. 1/8-27 NPS. I was considering buying cheapo tapered one & running die down threads & see if that could it into straight thread. Maybe would work?? But would housing be flat enough to seal?? No cheapo switches in stock locally. I don't know they'd be any better. The good quality tapered are same price as Triumph ones
Every OPS I have come across has leaked at some point, with almost continuous replacement it seems like a lucky dip to get a good one. Though I have never had one separate. Apart from the tapered timing cover, only two other conditions exist, as original. The pre-unit CEI & unit NPS. I have found that a proprietary make car OPS always works, is cheaper and easily available, and I've never had to replace one after fitting. Operating pressure seems irreverent, but most are marked for range. around 10 psi / actuation seems right if I remember. It does mean running a die down, but there is sufficient meat to allow this, and to do so on a pre-unit CEI also means you do not need a vulnerable adapter. Best to undercut the shank a little at the thread end switch land. I suspect that many of these OPS are sourced without any QC, probably far east and sold to the MC market 'cos they fit' well not always!
 

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Hi Freakmaster, AndyT140,

I like AndyT140's lump of metal solution, but would like to retain the idiot light function if possible.

FM, it sounds like you have been doing what TR7RV was suggesting and have had some good success. Just to be clear, you are talking about re-threading the part itself, not the timing cover?

I'm afraid the technical specifications escape me because of a lack of familiarity. CEI I think is Cycle Engineers Institute threads, and at some point Triumph switched from using a tapered thread to a straight thread. The later model bikes had straight thread. And that is what TR7RVman points out as the 1/8 27 NPS National Pipe Standard.

I'm thinking this OPS will motivate me to get a tap and die set and try my hand. At the moment, I have 3 of these modern no quality switches making their way to me, so at current rate that should last about 150 miles or so.

Would there be any specific make and model OPS you would suggest to try? I'd be happy to hear any specifics or be pointed in the direction of something with a little more quality built in. These switches are really poor. The other option of course is putting in the lump of steel solution or an oil pressure gauge. I liked the look of StuartMac's central mounted gauge solution for the triple, which would also work for the twins.

I have this BWD S320 switch which if I understand is 1/8 something something tapered thread. I wrecked a timing cover with it. So, at the very least, if I get a tap and die set I will have the opportunity to return the favor and put a little hurt on it even if I can't get it to fit the bike.

Or I could fix it with a big hammer and move on to some other switch suggested for actual rethreading.

Glad to know it is not me, freakishly high oil pressure, etc, etc, that is wrecking these OPS.

Eric
 

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Hi 77, don't know offhand what year bike you have, and presume its a parallel thread, but ID the thread from the above and buy a HSS die to suit. I'm sure most car Imp or metric auto OPS are suitable, pick a make that you would suspect has good QC and run your die down it. Most open at about 5 to 15 Ibs sq inch, over 10 you'd likely find light comes on at tick-over, so take your pick. We have component multi make dist here that are really helpful, but anyone in the business will oblige. You might even find a display rack from which you can choose. There is probably someone on the forum that works in the auto ind that might chip in with a specific make.
 

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Hi 77, don't know offhand what year bike you have, and presume its a parallel thread, but ID the thread from the above and buy a HSS die to suit. I'm sure most car Imp or metric auto OPS are suitable, pick a make that you would suspect has good QC and run your die down it. Most open at about 5 to 15 Ibs sq inch, over 10 you'd likely find light comes on at tick-over, so take your pick. We have component multi make dist here that are really helpful, but anyone in the business will oblige. You might even find a display rack from which you can choose. There is probably someone on the forum that works in the auto ind that might chip in with a specific make.
Hi FM,

It is a 77 T140V, the american export.

Just reading about dies and considering the options - thanks for the suggestion.

Eric
 

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Hi Eric,
CEI I think is Cycle Engineers Institute threads,
Essentially correct. In reality, the CEI changed its name in 1904 and its threads standards became British Standard during the 1920's. So the 26 tpi threadform Triumph was using is BSC (British Standard Cycle), just I suspect the guys that were old in the 1950's/1960's had begun their time with "CEI" and, as with all jargon, it's OK if everyone understands what you mean - fifty, sixty, seventy years later, not everyone does ...

at some point Triumph switched from using a tapered thread to a straight thread.
During the '69 model year:-

. The BSA works at Small Heath in Birmingham started out building both Triumph and BSA triple engines from May or June 1968 using NPT taper-thread switches. If the little information recorded is correct, that continued 'til sometime in January 1969.

. Meriden built a little over 6,500 twins in the about the first three months of the '69 model year numbered using the old DU- and H-prefixed 650 and 500/350 number ranges; as far as I've been able to ascertain (around half-a-century after the event :rolleyes:), some of these were fitted with NPT timing covers and switches while others were fitted with NPS, I haven't yet been able to discern the pattern. :( After Meriden changed to the 2-letter-date-code-5-figure-number VIN format in October 1968, I have not come across any twin engines with NPT switches or timing covers.

. '69 BSA twins parts books also show the NPT switch but afaik there isn't any surviving record of when they changed to NPS.

Hth.

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Hi, NPS is national pipe straight. I don’t think you can retread metric to correct fit.
To retread tapered to straight you need to start with switch that has an abutment that will be flat/true enough to accept sealing washer.
Don
 

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Hi, NPS is national pipe straight. I don’t think you can retread metric to correct fit.
To retread tapered to straight you need to start with switch that has an abutment that will be flat/true enough to accept sealing washer.
Don
This is a good point. The BWD switch that I would like to abuse does not have the required flat seating surface.

I will spend some time looking at other OPS that might have such a flat seating surface. I do not know if modern American engines are primarily metric at this point. I have plenty of spare sealing washers from all the ruined 60-3719 switches.

In looking at various die and tap sets, the variety of sizes is overwhelming me. I am trying to find one that includes 1/8 27 NPS. I'm not seeing a lot of them that list NPS as the type of die and tap set. I'm assuming the NPS fits into the category of SAE and so I am finding 1/8 27 TPI that don't then say NPS. I am also seeing tap and die sets that list NPT, but at least in my mind I don't see how a die or tap could provide a tapered thread. Perhaps I just don't have a clear enough understanding of the mechanics involved. Perhaps I've just confused myself by looking at a lot of different tap and die sets. It seems like you can get a fairly large kit for $100 or so.

I wonder if I found a metric OPS that had a bigger shaft than 1/8". If it had the right seating face, I could then file down the existing threads and recut them for a 1/8 27 NPS. That and finding a tap and die set that includes it.

I don't mind wrecking a spare part or two, but don't want to ruin another timing cover! In my recent attempts to mount a new OPS my approach has been to thread it in, barely seat it, then crank it up and check for a leak, rather than over-tightening it to begin with.

As I list my hopes and dreams for 2021, finding an OPS that lasts for a while is being added to my hope that replacing the jets and needles on my MK1 Amal carburetors will somehow magically address my oil burning/non seating rings issue. Apparently the old needles and jets I was running were very loose, making it difficult to tune the mix. At least that is my guess after firing it up and it being very lean on the old air mix settings.

77Salisbury
 

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I am also seeing tap and die sets that list NPT, but at least in my mind I don't see how a die or tap could provide a tapered thread.
Hi 77
I wanted to fit a temperature sensor to the Oil tank drain plug on an oil in frame bike, the thermal sender unit was 1/8" NPT.
I bought the tapered NPT tap and used a tapered reamer on the hole, I drilled undersized (slightly smaller than the minor diameter or bottom of the thread) and then used the reamer, then used the tap. I don’t know if this was the correct procedure, but /i could produce a tapered thread.
It was not easy, if yo use too much reamer, or cut too much thread, then the male taper disappears down the hole before it seals, if you use too little then you can only tighten a little way. It took a lot of trial and error on a practice sheet to be able to get a consistent taper to taper fit, it is really sensitive, one turn too much with the tap and it’s ruined. I spent hours drilling, reaming and tapping practice holes, so much so that I never got around to drilling and tapping the oil tank drain bung 😖
Regards
Peg.
 

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My tap set came with 1/8-27 taper tap & die. Straight pipe while not rare, far less common. I had to go to ebay. Nobody stocked in my area. Not even the hydraulic hose shop. They couldn’t even supply adapter to fit my oil pressure test gauge.
So far as I can tell modern US car motors are metric. Older are taper. As I said I couldn’t find one 1/8 straight sold anywhere. They say it’s straight but inspection shows it’s tapered. Brake lines have lots of straight but different thread. So that’s no help. I was thinking of brake lamp pressure switch.

I have not found 1/8-27 straight helicoil kit either. Tapered no problem. I don’t know the coil would care, but the tap is tapered so won’t work.
Looks like we’re stuck with what we can get.
Don
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Checking my big box Chinese tool store HF, I only saw one tap and die set that included a 1/8 27 NPT, which now I suppose must mean it is national pipe tapered. From Rancidpegs comment, it is apparently possible to create a tapered thread with this, so my option of making a op switch with 1/8 27 NPS will not be possible until or if I can find correct die, much less a better quality ops to tinker with.

That is one of my wishes for 2021 already foundering. I'll continue to hold out hope my other wish comes true!
 
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