Oil feed line issue at rocker boxes

Hi 77salisbury, Modern fuel is different than '70s fuel world wide. So old specs may not apply. Non stock mufflers or air filters can change mixture also. I would NOT use top groove. I'd start with center groove. You may find bottom groove is better after road testing & evaluating mixture.

Good you cleaned pilot jet & cleaned passages. What float are you using? The original plastic or the new black stay up with stainless steel needle tab? What needle? Original plastic or aluminum with viton tip? With stay up float it is acceptable practice to bend metal to set level. No matter if you bend or move seat as you did. It's the fuel level in bowl that is what you want to achieve.

Popping on deceleration. What do you mean by popping? A little back fire is most often from exhaust leak up front at head & occasionally at muffler front joint. Any air that gets sucked into exhaust system can ignite unburned mixture & pop. However a blub blub blub on deceleration manly at lower speeds like 30 mph or lower like coming into town easy is too rich mixture. Too lean on decel in my experience sounds normal, like nothing is wrong.

Mixture screw per shop manual is 2.5 turns. However that is misprint. When concentric came out screw base setting was changed to 1.5 turns. So 2.5 turns may put you lean.... However mixture is set at normal idle rpm. If idle is biased too fast it's not the same really. So I'd put at 1.5 turns now. Then correct idle. Then go back & trim mixture & idle again. Remember you want a good warm motor before you do final rpm & mixture adjustments. When idle is correct warm, it will be too slow & too lean with motor cold. That is normal & expected.

Regarding idle. Stating what you may already know, you must have enough cable slack to allow slides to drop to slow idle. After you get idle & mixture at best setting, then go back & readjust cables. Kind of time consuming & a pain. That's what is "tuning" adjusting everything to it's best position. Of course any changes effects the other. So you tune until you get it best it can be. Takes practice, but with practice becomes easy. Still takes time though. Sounds like you are getting there.

Regarding smoke from head, cyl on start up after tear down. I find it normal. Even when trying to clean & wipe down everything, I always see smoke as motor warms. This is with perfect assembly, not leaks etc. I get worried every single time as it smokes. Usually takes about 20 min of running to burn it off. Sometimes more. Depending on cly paint it can stink for several rides. I mean real rides 50+ miles. Next day ride again, stinks again. Took my cyl about 6 long rides to cure paint. Duplicolor Ford semi gloss black heat resistant motor paint.

Regarding oil leaks at acorn nuts, I don't know if it was leaking or not. If leaking, obviously it would smoke. You didn't seem to notice leaking so I expect smoke was just normal start up smoke. 2 miles will only show bad leaks. Small leaks/seeps may take 30-200 miles to show.

I see what you mean on exhaust rocker threads. Does look like end of shaft may have been machined back?? I see repro shafts that have end that looks similar, but I don't think they have shortened threads.

The fat cap on end of rocker shaft is actually separate pressed on piece that can slip on shaft so you can't always go by what you see at left end or rocker box. What you want to go by is the shoulder on the rocker shaft where it necks down. That shoulder should be tight against the right inner wall of rocker box. You can remove valve cover & look in & see this. Normally from factory there is a 3/8" ID washer installed so actually the washer is pinched between shaft shoulder & box inner wall. (some owners modify the washer positions). You'll have look carefully as the thackery spring is covering area.
Back to the pressed on end at left, if it looks good like intake & you see right end is tight against inner box wall, then someone shortened threads.

I don't go 22# on torque on these. It just seems too tight. I do it by feel. I've had practice though. Next time I'll check with torque wrench & see what it reads. I have a little torque wrench with dial reading.
Anneal all 4 copper washers for banjos. Bend hook on end of long wire. Heat washer one at a time on gas stove burner or propane torch to red hot. Drop hot washer in cup of cold water to remove black scale.
Not a bad plan to put some sealant on washers also. Loctite 518 is my sealant of choice, however Hylomar universal blue or any of that family of hylomar will work good also. Put a thin smear both sides. Wipe hole of washer clean. Hang washer on wire 10 min to flash of solvents in sealer. Handle washer from outside. Assemble & tighten acorn nut. Make sure you don't smear sealant on threads or shaft sliding washer on. Clean box surface, banjo sides, nut face well & dry. Sealant doesn't stick well on oily surface. Wipe off excess quickly.

If banjo fittings want to spin when tightening nuts, counter hold them on the flats. Don't let them spin & bend tube.

If... The threads on acorn nuts are still good, you should be able to ride many miles with the old nuts. If threads are damaged, you risk damaging rocker shaft threads. If threads are damaged I'd wait for new nuts.

Tip: thin smear of Hylomar on valve cover & primary gasket works good. Again 10 minutes or more to flash off solvent. Not longer than 30 min though. Seal the copper washers on primary cover the same way.

Regarding head gasket retorque if you rode 2 miles I'd check it now. Generally I start bike & ride it around the block, return to home & check oil return, check for obvious leaks. Don't shut bike off. Smoke is coming from everywhere it seems. I've already suited up ready to ride. I'll ride bike about 2 miles, not babying it, just ride normal. Pull over & look for leaks or obvious problems. Evaluate how bike is running. Often I'll lower idle as I set slide stop screws as a guess, which is usually too high. I'll go another 5 miles, check again. Often will trim mixture screws & idle screws as needed even though motor is not really warmed all the way. If all is good I like to go for a good 30 mile run to heat soak motor & evaluate things as I ride. Now I'll set rpm & mixture. I static set timing with points. With Boyer I can only set by the hole & dot carefully. Never ever lug bike during breaking in. So even if timing is off I'm not in danger of holing piston. After 5 miles I'll go ahead & spin the motor up to 4500 for brief periods. After 20 miles I'll go to freeway & run it 55-60mph. The canyon roads you cannot run this fast. Bring it back home & shut off. Look it over & see what may need more work or if any oil seeps have cropped up.

Next day after cooling all night, I retorque head. Adjust valves. Adjust clutch push rod & lever. Check/adjust primary chain (usually ok). Inspect points cavity to be sure that seal is not leaking. Strobe check timing. In that order. I suit up & take a good 50-100 mile ride. This time I final adjust rpm & mixture. I'll ride bike next day another 100 miles or so. Set overnight. Check head torque & valve adjustment again. It often will take more torque. Valves may or may not need to have screw turned. I'll check clutch rod again. Next head torque & valve adjust will be 500 miles. I'll drain break in oil between 300-500 miles. Check clutch rod at 500 miles also. If new plates used, it takes a few adjustments to compensate for settling in.

There after I'll check head torque every 3000 miles before valve adjustment. I find if you do this after about 6-9k miles the bolts don't seem to take more torque. I mark bolt head & allen wrench with felt pin so I can see where it was & if it goes tighter. I always give torque first to see if it moves. If it doesn't move I back off slightly, like 1/32 of turn, then go tighten direction to torque. Never jerk or too slow pull torque wrench. 1/8 turn per second is a good pull speed. Jerking is the worst. Never do that.

Remove tank to torque head. Don't remove rocker boxes to torque head! Just remove the 4 large bolts that hold rocker boxes on, 5/16 thread. These screw into the allen head nuts. The torque on these bolts is only 10#. This will feel loose with the big head & threads, but use 10#. A light smear of Hylomar blue on the washers is good idea to prevent leaks around washers. Hylomar cleans off easy with some carb spray or brake clean etc.

Forgive me for nit picking, but the kind of clamps you are using on banjo tend to damage hose & seep over time. The original type like factory used are a safer choice over time. They are sold at many auto parts stores or eBay. You can remove screw & open clamp, then fit it over hose so you don't need to pull off hose. This hose is 5/16.


They come in 3/8 also for the oil feed hose from frame sump.

I have no idea what you want for mufflers. I have stock type Emgo that replicate the originals. They are not loud at all. They are long & ugly though. Emgo makes a 1970 type muffler, but with long front pipe to hook to T140 stock front pipe. They sound a little louder than original 1970 mufflers, but are not too loud at all. Many Emgo mufflers are not very costly. Mine weren't. Overall mufflers are not cheap though. I don't care for loud mufflers, I don't like following bikes with loud mufflers. That's just me though. Loud is the opinion of listener though.

Once you finally get this bike set up, it will be a joy to ride for many years.
Don

Don’t remove the rocker spindles.
Anneal the copper washers. Make sure the washers are thick enough to be gripped hard by the nuts.
It is usually safe to ride the bike with leaks from the rocker feed or elsewhere around the top end. The only leaks that would stop me riding would be high pressure squirting leaks somewhere between the pump and the crankshaft nose, or in the feed hose from the oil tank to the crankcase.

2.5 turns out is too weak on the pilot mixture and is very likely to make the engine pop on over-run.
1.5 turns is only a starting point. With engine fully warm, I screw each one in from there until that cylinder starts to slog, then screw out until it runs right.
You also have to juggle the throttle stop screws a bit. If screwing one out about 30 degrees does not slow the idling engine, then either it was set too low or the one on the other side is too high.

You are wise to try the middle needle notch first. If it’s obviously much too rich with throttle more than 1/4 open, carefully try the top notch.

Hi Tritn, Tr7Rv,

Thanks for excellent details. I have a couple items in response.

The engine smoking like that had me a bit flipped out. I could not find any source of oil, but do have the rocker spindle issue to address. The one acorn nut is stripped, went ahead and ordered the set. My local nut & bolt shop closed at 4:30 Friday, missed getting there by about 8 minutes. Don't know if they would have it, but have had good luck with these sorts of suppliers back in the day sourcing machine bolts for older bikes. Regarding the spindle, I do notice in pic that it looks like the shorter shaft is turned down, will go out and look at that closely in a minute. The threads on the spindles look good. I do not have second acorn to replace, but have a brass cap nut with same threads that I'm using as a place holder.

When I reassembled the rockers, I do now recall the stepped collar and did drive the spindle home to capture the washer with it, so I think I'm showing all the threads available on end. Reading the posts about the order of thackery springs and washers, I fooled around with reversing order, but that required swapping out that washer for larger ID washer. That seemed to defeat purpose of the stepped collar, so I kept the existing (factory or PO) order. I've re-read your post and see clearly that we are describing the same thing. I think the spindle end must have been shortened (damaged threads maybe? non-stock part?)

I've reset the air mixture to initial 1.5, and do need to go back and slacken cables. As I originally had idle screws way too high, when I began dropping those it took some of my slack. Will also anneal washers before remounting the oiler tube. Thanks Tritn for the good description of how/where you go with the air screws during tuning.

Because I'm concerned about overheating, I wonder what other inspection I could do, how much oil should I be seeing from the rocker feed tube if I were to turn over the engine very briefly? I've got great flow into the frame, but don't know how well that translates to the rocker box. It does seem the right cylinder is running a little hotter than the left, the pipe did blue up a bit at the header.

For the carbs, I have the factory needle, plastic floats, but aluminum viton tipped valve. I do need to go back and slacken the cable. Because I did not buy the stay up floats, that is the reason I went ahead and adjusted the levels with the brass seats. I used a bamboo chop stick (after heating bowl) to tap out the brass seat, my only concern was using something metal that would damage the seat. I have not checked fuel level - do not have a spare bowl plug, so I set the float level at .08. Never drove the bush out all the way, just raised it enough that I had some room to bring it back down with a few very gentle taps. With the carb rebuild kit, the fuel bowl plug washer (fiber?) didn't hold fuel, and when I tightened it, it simply split. I put on some o-rings and they are sealing finger tight. Not sure if they will hold up to the gas well. When I first put the carbs back on the bike, they leaked in every possible way - disassembling showed me that the bowl gasket was rubbing, that I hadn't done a good enough job checking the float levels, and the bowls and flange both needed planing. that all went by the book. I was not sure where to finish on the planing, so I went to 1000 grit wet paper.

I had originally set the idle screws too high, so as I've dropped that, I lost some of my slack on the cables at the carb tops. so the tank is coming back off. I was unable to get the scratch out of the cable without tucking the adjustment ferrules up against the frame with a tie.

When you mention the 10# torque, you are referring to the rocker box bolts on top, not the allen bolts heads beneath on head correct? Pretty sure I ended up setting the BIG rocker box bolts higher than 10, so I'll see if I stripped the rocker bolt threads or the allen bolt head beneath.

I've not taken the bike around the block yet - too worried about the smoke. Maybe I'll take it around for a spin, and having the bike moving will keep me from standing around looking at the smoke. I'll need to adjust the cables first. As you describe your routine, it sounds like you do a bit more riding (thanks for excellent description) before you let it cool overnight and then go round the bike with checks and retorque as you mentioned. I especially appreciate the point you made about check for tightness before slacking off the bolt. That way I could go ahead and just do a quick head check while I've got the tank off to reset the cables.

I do notice the right cylinder seems to be running hotter than left. I'm thinking I'll turn in the air screw a quarter or 1/2 on the right. The exhaust blued a bit at the header on right but not left. I am getting firing from both cylinders. The bike is firing up on first kick with tickler routine. very satisfying, but I did not see much smoke. I thought with new rings I would get a bit more. Perhaps my earlier high idle start has set the rings already. At this point, without being able to crawl into the oil passage myself, I'll just continue to worry until it stops smoking and will keep my fingers crossed nothing bad is happening. Any tips about how hot this top end gets would be appreciated. I just don't remember the old hondas smoking after a rebuild. Maybe I should buy one of those point and shoot temperature gauges.

The backfire seemed to be more of a decelerating rich condition - bup bup bup, on the left cylinder, rather than a cracking sound in the muffler. I'll check to make sure the muffler tabs are fully on. The aluminum shims on the header pipe gave me a great fit, so the ports were not too badly out of round or size. I did see some of the longer emgo mufflers I liked, so I'll be going for one of those if I don't get used to the shorties. Without the backfire, it is growing on me.

Oh, and about the hose clamps. 100 percent agree. I think these screw ons are unattractive and they will chew up the hose, but could not locally source the smooth bore version. Look forward to swapping those out.

I've got some blue loctite, have not heard of this Hylomar, so will be checking that out.

Thanks for the tip on how long to run the break in oil, I had wondered about that. Looking forward to the test ride, finding out how the brakes, clutch, and chain are behaving. The chain lube (chain and cable) I bought is a lot thinner that what I remember using on chains in the past (which was more like a sticky spray lubricant). The chain was fully greased as new, so before I do anything beyond a few miles, need to lube that up. Is the thinnner (teflon or something like it?) lube appropriate for a final drive chain? My local auto parts store did not have anything more substantial than the item I mention here, so I may need to head out of town/online order to find something better.

Thanks for all the great feedback.

This is what i got, i think it is called reverse cone, emgo product. If i decide to go with somwthing else, i think it would be their straight dunstall or if i can get the replacement triumphs with the bulge.

Hi 77salisbury, Stay up floats are far superior to the original "nylon" floats. Especially with ethanol fuels. The floats soften & the tangs bend for float needle. This skews the fuel level in bowl. When bending get worse it will flood carb. I had that happen to me. It ultimately caused air box fire. God put it out. That's all I can say. I most strongly recommend replacing the plastic floats.

I'm not surprised by lack of smoke from rings. All the motors that worked out good for me, motor started. A puff of smoke out mufflers that lasted up to a few seconds. Then no more smoke. But... if mufflers or exhaust pipes had residual oil in them they start smoking after maybe 3-4 minutes. Takes up to 20 min to burn oil out.

Every last motor I've seen that continued to smoke after start up & during the first 100 miles never ever broke in properly. They always used oil & tended to smoke. None every quit smoking all the way, or quit using oil. So congratulations, you did good!!

I did some experiments with chain oil. I finally just started using GL5 gear oil as I got lots for free. It actually works quite well to reduce wear if you put it on regularly. It makes a mess. I tried other kinds. Not so good. The wax stuff is clean, but I don't see it in the inner link pins. I don't see it extending chain life. PJ1 Black label for non o-ring chains was just awful. Makes huge mess. Very sticky. Takes solvent to remove fling off. Same thing. Chain out side was gooey mess, but pins ended up with basically no lube. Scott oiler is ultimate lube, but I don't want that. So I just use the gear lube. What you put in your trans should be fine. Chain lube is a never ending subject. Remember these are non oring chains. That can a difference with lube.

I personally just use Mobil1 V-twin 20-50 on my clutch cable. Non lined Barnett cable. Venhill featherlight cables are lined. Check with Venhill for lube instructions. Watch the inner liner for deterioration at the lower end. It can fill with "powder" from liner wear. They told me no lube, leave it dry. That might not be best way though.

I agree 100% riding with brass acorn nut is fine until you get the correct nuts.

The rocker feed is not very much oil. Minimal cooling at best from this oil. You can run motor with valve covers removed. It won't make a mess. You can see oil running out each end of all rocker arms. If you rode bike 2 miles & didn't hear squeaking from rocker arms, you are good. I'd not worry about it.

I don't know if you can keep T140 pipes from turning blue. They just get hot, especially on freeway in summer. City riding in summer waiting at stop lights gets them hot also, but freeway is the worst. It's expected & normal. The bikes I've seen that didn't blue pipes are running really rich & they don't ride far on freeway in hot weather. There is supposedly some creams you can rub on pipes to keep them from bluing, or internal ceramic coatings. I don't worry about the blue.

Do search with my user name & look for exhaust temps. I measured mine recently. These motors run so hot you can't believe it. In winter not so bad. Above 90f it goes up. At 100f+ like where I live the head & cyl temps are staggering. It boils spit from cyl base to top of head. I have Harbor Freight infrared temp gun (junk??). I measure next to spark plug bore. My temp gun doesn't like chrome. It will read erratic so I can't tell on the hot part of pipes. I have the false clamps on my pipes from factory. They are push in pipes. I've measured all over motor/trans. I've used wife's meat thermometer in oil. (she wasn't looking of course).

This is the Hylomar universal blue. I got mine from this place, eBay. Actually price is higher than I remembered. $11.48 + tx. free shipping. I couldn't find it locally.

Don

Hi TR7RV, All,

Thanks for the feedback - I think what I recall is the something like the PJ1 chain lube - definitely a sticky mess but it used to definitely stick on the chain. The chain/cable lube I purchased is a sort of teflon spray. It said it was safe for nylon and other synthetic lined cables, and I mentally can not break the habit that something needs to be put in the cable beyond running it dry. It doesn't look like this WD40 looking teflon spray would hold up to much flinging...

So, I pulled the bike down off my bike bench (a delicate affair involving an eight foot ramp made from a 2x10 and 2 2x4 side bars for vertical strength. The ramp is solid, but it is a pretty sharp incline. Requires a little family assistance. Before bring the bike down, I did go over the rocker spindle issue and retorque.

It does not look like the shortening of the rocker spindle was done by anyone, but it is definitely a different machined end - and shorter by a good 2 - 3 threads. On original assembly, I noticed the oil intake port is much closer to the rocker box than on the other spindle. Not covered up by the copper washer, but definitely closer than the other one. I wonder if this may be a case of either replacement, or original mf using an available part.

Checking the head gasket torque, I noticed two bolts that had loosened up, one of the under rocker cover bolts and the other an outside edge bolt, but everything else was still fully torqued. With my torque wrench and allen head sockets, it is not possible to torque the intake allens under the rocker box. I need a solution for this. Perhaps finding and buying a shorter socket adapter. 1/8 - 1/4 inch shorter would give me the clearance I need. The cylinder base bolts were all secure, but again, my torque wrench does not give me the appropriate purchase. I think the solution to both of these issues will be some appropriate sized crows feet to fix both of these torque needs. I want to have that in place when I go to retorque head after a 40-50 mile ride.

I am glad to know that I did not strip one of the larger rocker box bolts. So, I can stop worrying about that. I was able to remove the head steady without taking off the rocker cover on the intake, but it wasn't easy. I beveled the edge of the head steady bolt hole to make it easier to line up, since I'll be doing this again shortly.

I will check your posts about the engine temps. I think I have an issue that I'll need to remove carbs again, mostly, this is an issue of a first time rebuild of a Triumph engine, so only after thinking I've finished the job do I go "oh!, that's what I should have done."

I see that I have to do some more tuning of the carb settings. I am only running the bike for a short period of time, but the idle remains a bit high even for a warming engine - 1.8 - 2K. This could also be because of the other issue I am going to explain here. Unless the T140 only requires a 1/2-3/4 turn on the idle screw, something else is going on.

Doing a bit of reading about my concern - overheating engine - I see there is another issue that is going to keep me from a longer ride this weekend. When I mounted the carbs and intake manifolds, I did not have the appropriate extra nuts (I think 1/4 x UNF 28 thread) that were not the locking nut type. So, when trying to double nut the intake manifold bolts, I was unable to keep the bolts from backing out while I was removing the nuts. If I remember correctly, the shouldered intake manifold bolt means it can not be installed first (allowing the use of a vise grip) and then slip over the manifold. I'll have to get back in it to see. It is the mounting of the bolt that secures the intake manifold, as otherwise it would only be the carb mounting nuts holding it on...

Failing to more securely seat these bolts makes me worry that I have provided a manifold leak which is making my right cylinder run hotter and than the left and this is what is making it difficult to drop the idle. I'm making a run over to my local auto parts store to see if I can pick up some plain 1/4 nuts of correct pitch. The bolt supply store will be open tomorrow if I can't locate them. I plan to use blue loctite on the threads of the manifold bolts and make sure it sets - removing the double nutted plain nuts will also be much easier of course. Given the engine heat, perhaps I should use red loctite.

What didn't I replace in the carb? Well, the needle and the idle and main jets. I looked them over and a little discoloration on the needle was all I could see but could not feel or measure any circles. cleaning the idle and main jets with some carb cleaner, i did look very closely at these, noticed no deposits at the jet that would be constricting flow. After I remount the intake manifolds if I still can't get idle, I'll move to replacing these parts. Anyway, I'll be back in there soon to replace the plastic floats with the stay up floats for reasons you mention about modern fuel.

I have not redone the static timing, still at 38 before TDC. If I wanted to soften this a bit, I was thinking of marking the rotor a few degrees after the 38 mark in the direction of rotation - but not sure what sort of measurement I would want to look at. I guess I could use the TDC flywheel mark, measure the difference, and convert 4 degrees (10.5 percent of 38) into a distance. Not sure how easy that would be to do without removing the primary chaincase cover, I have the small inspection window that only shows a part of the rotor.

If I am unable to reuse the existing paper gaskets on the intake manifold, I'll have a little more down time.

With static timing at 38 before, the bike is solidly a first kick bike, but retarding the timing a little as well might help diminish my fears about overheating.

Once I got the bike down off the table, I did go ahead and check the action of the clutch and brakes with engine running. Both are behaving solidly. I'm tempted to run it to the end of the block, but until I get over my worries about an intake manifold leak, I think I'll wait.

Off to read about bike temps! will let you know if I can't locate it.

77Salisbury