Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums banner
  • Hey everyone! Enter your ride HERE to be a part of September's Bike of the Month Challenge!
1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a 03 Speedmaster. Last year I adjusted the ignition pick up coil to the new specs that I found on here. Had the carbs torn apart and cleaned.I figured it was apart waiting for parts. Why not. It ran good for 4 months. Then the problem started. It would run for about 5 min. then it would just shut off. Now it cranks, but will not start at all. I have replaced the coils, spark plugs , put a Procon CDI on it, tried new spark plug cables, checked the kill switch, checked the kick stand switch, and all connections look good. Still no spark. I checked the coils, ignition pick up coil, and the stator with a ohms meter and they seems in the range I found on other posts. Any ideas?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
557 Posts
Have you checked, ignition on, whether there is power to the coil? If there is you are back to checking components rather than connectivity.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,713 Posts
I agree with Callumity. The first thing you should do, if you haven't already, is get a wiring diagram and start checking for voltage, starting with the coils. Are both plugs not sparking? If so, this would point to a fault common to both coils, such as a faulty ignition switch or a break in the wiring - even a popped fuse - have those been checked? Start at the coil and work back until you reach the fuse block.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
I got 1.335V on the right coil and 1.817V on the left coil. The voltage is the same . Not cranking the engine and cranking the engine. I was getting around 1.550V with the old coils before I changed them out. This is with the old CDI box. I taken the Procon off to try to return it, Because it didn't make a difference with it on. And it cost me $250.00 Should I be getting 12v? I thought if it is coming from the CDI maybe that is why it's so low.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,713 Posts
I got 1.335V on the right coil and 1.817V on the left coil. The voltage is the same . Not cranking the engine and cranking the engine. I was getting around 1.550V with the old coils before I changed them out. This is with the old CDI box. I taken the Procon off to try to return it, Because it didn't make a difference with it on. And it cost me $250.00 Should I be getting 12v? I thought if it is coming from the CDI maybe that is why it's so low.
Which coil connection are you getting this voltage on? You should have 12v (or full battery voltage) on the RED wire. Best to pull off the faston connector and measure that. If you are still getting the low voltage on the Red wire you have a wiring fault. The Red wire goes to both coils, so if the voltage is low on one, it is most likely low on both.

The other connection of each coil (Yellow/Brown - left, and Yellow/Grey - right) come from pins 8 and 14 of the igniter. These are the wires that would go to the contact breaker points on an old non-electronic ignition engine. They fire the coil by means of the igniter momentarily grounding them and you are very unlikely to get any sensible reading on these wires with a multimeter.

You are correct to return the Procom igniter for now. If the igniter turns out to be faulty then you can always re-order the Procom, but I have a feeling that the igniter is not at fault here.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I'm using a digital multi meter. I pulled the wires off the coil and stuck the meter probes on the connectors. One probe on the red and the other on yellow/brown or yellow/gray. I understand why I'm getting low readings from there now. From the red wire to the frame I got 11.80 V. The battery is 12.87. It looks like that red wire goes to the CDI. Is that right? If it does then it looks like I'm going to replace that wire. If I need to replace that wiring harness connector that connects to the CDI. Were can I find one? Thanks for all your help.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
557 Posts
The yellow/brown and yellow/gray wires are from the igniter - the red connects to power in on the +ve terminal. The igniter cuts the circuit, collapses the magnetic field in the coil and induces the current that generates the spark. You should get 12v both sides of the coil low tension circuit earthed to frame unless you have hit the exact firing spot. You can check power at the igniter with a dressmaking pin into the wires later repaired with tape.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,713 Posts
From the red wire to the frame I got 11.80 V. The battery is 12.87.
That is roughly correct. The difference between the readings can be accounted for by losses in the wiring and connections, the battery voltage will always be a little higher.

It looks like that red wire goes to the CDI. Is that right?
No, there is a Red wire on the igniter but that is the pulse output to the tach. The Red wire to both coils is the main power feed and is internally spliced (inside the harness) to the Green/Red which feeds the start button and kill switch.

You should have done the voltage measurements on the Red coil wires, disconnected from the coils. Red probe on the red wire and Black probe on any ground such as the frame or battery negative terminal. Always do voltage checks on the wiring with components disconnected. But no matter, we still have the information we were looking for, that is, the Red coil wire is carrying the voltage that it should.

Now we move onto the other end of the system - the pickup coil. This may seem a bit illogical but I'm starting with the easier and cheaper options. The pickup coil (crank position sensor) is notorious on the older carbed models for dying, if the pickup coil does not send its signal to the igniter, the igniter cannot fire the coils, therefore there will be no spark.

I realise from your previous post that you are not very familiar with the use of a multimeter, so I will endevour to be with you at every step, and you may have to excuse long explanitory posts.

You will find the wires to the pickup coil exiting the alternator cover (the triangular one on the right side of the engine). The stator wires also exit here, there are 3 of those which go off to the voltage regulator but the other two should terminate in a connector block which is on top of the airbox and a little hard to get to. Follow the wiring up from the engine and you will find it. Disconnect the block. You are only interested in the part of the wiring that runs down to the engine.

Switch your meter to the 2 kilohms resistance range and place the probes across the 2 wires. There is no polarity so you can put the probes on either way around. I'm unsure of the actual reading, but you should get a reading of somewhere between 570 and 630 ohms. If your meter reads something silly such as '0' or a very low value, or '1' (which means the reading is out of range of the meter), then that would show the pickup coil to be bad and require replacement.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
557 Posts
Ripper has more patience than me! I agree with his approach. The 'run for a few minutes then dies' is suggestive of a coil failure when warm (let's exclude fuel starvation!) and the joy of the Speedmaster is its twin coils. Simultaneous failure is highly unlikely so Probability points to the pick up coil. Search behind the rh sidecover for the connector and check its resistance as Ripper recommends. If it within spec then the igniter needs swapping out to test with a known good one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,713 Posts
Ripper has more patience than me! I agree with his approach. The 'run for a few minutes then dies' is suggestive of a coil failure when warm (let's exclude fuel starvation!) and the joy of the Speedmaster is its twin coils. Simultaneous failure is highly unlikely so Probability points to the pick up coil. Search behind the rh sidecover for the connector and check its resistance as Ripper recommends. If it within spec then the igniter needs swapping out to test with a known good one.
Actually Callumity, I think you have just stumbled upon an error I have made. I thought there was no spark at all, I didn't know that the bike ran for a few minutes. That fact probably means that you are correct in pointing to the pickup coil but would change the way in which it is tested. I will wait to see what the results of the resistance readings are but if they appear to be okay then the coil would need to be removed and rechecked after standing in boiling water for a couple of minutes. Unless the OP runs the bike until it dies and takes the measurement before it can cool.

As you say it is very unlikely that both ignition coils would fail simultaneously which would then only leave the igniter, which I am reluctant to write off until the very end, being such an expensive part. So my next step after the pickup coil would have been the igniter connector block/seat pan combo which has also caused much grief to carbed bike owners. Unfortunately, as you say, the igniter itself can only be tested by substitution.

Your point on fuel starvation would be very valid, though with carbed bikes there are many on here much better than me to advise on that, except that the OP stated that there is no spark, which is why I ruled that out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
557 Posts
I read the OP as it now being totally dead having previously run for a few minutes. I assume he has been cranking with a spare plug earthed to the head to check for a spark...and on both sides.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
That was it. I got no readings on the pick up coil connections. So the wiring is open somewhere. Where can I order a new one online? The nearest Triumph dealer is 30 mins away and I'm shore they will not stock it. And it will take a week before they build up there order amount to place a order to triumph.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I would like to thank everyone for being so helpful. 1 1/2 years ago I wrecked my bike. Laid it down. slide down the road about 50 ft . My bike hitting a fence. Good thing I was slowing down. I was ok just some road rash. Good thing I decided to wear my jacket. My bike's foot peg was broke off , But there were more bent parts. I finally got it back together . Ran fine for 3 months.
Then the problems started on a hot August ride. My bike just shut off on the highway in the passing lane. So I pushed it to the nearest parking lot to see if I can get it going again. After it sat for one hour it would start and I could make it about one mile before it would just shut off again. It taken me 8 hours to limp it home. I live near York, Pa. They make Harleys in York. I lost count how many bikes just went by while I was bent over my bike looking for the problem. Except one guy was on a Triumph. He told me check out this form that there was alot of great guys with mechanical skills that you will not find anywhere else. He called his wife to give me a ride home to get my truck. Thank You again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,713 Posts
That was it. I got no readings on the pick up coil connections. So the wiring is open somewhere. Where can I order a new one online? The nearest Triumph dealer is 30 mins away and I'm shore they will not stock it. And it will take a week before they build up there order amount to place a order to triumph.
We need Forchetto to chime in here - I've looked on EBay and every Triumph model is catered for except the Bonneville, carbed or otherwise. I believe that a model of Kawasaki uses the same coil.

These things are so troublesome on carbed bikes that your dealer, if its an approved Triumph dealership, should be stocking them. I would give those a try first. Make sure that the one you get is for a carbed bike - EFI ones are electrically different. You will also need a gasket for the alternator cover.

When you replace the coil, note that the air gap was changed from 1mm to 0.8mm. Set this with feeler gauges. If you can lay the bike on its left side without damage, you will not need to drain any oil.

Also, the rubber grommet that the stator and pickup coil wires run through will need some silicon sealant on it when you reassemble the cover, else you will get oil seepage through the grommet 'slot'.

Its really great that you have found the fault without spending much money. Happy to have helped.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ger Shepard

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
Called my local Triumph dealer. They told me they don't sell the pick up coil by itself . That I would have to buy the whole stator assemble for $430.00 plus tax. I told him that is ridiculous , because it's just hold on by two screws separate from the stator. Looks like I'm looking else where.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,143 Posts
  • Like
Reactions: Ger Shepard

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
20,740 Posts
Called my local Triumph dealer. They told me they don't sell the pick up coil by itself . That I would have to buy the whole stator assemble for $430.00 plus tax. I told him that is ridiculous , because it's just hold on by two screws separate from the stator. Looks like I'm looking else where.
It's listed separately, part number T1290131 costing $73.07 from Bikebandit, for example:

http://www.bikebandit.com/oem-parts/detail/triumph/t1290131/b1389026?m=82175&sch=566683

This part has been used on all Bonnevilles from 2001 up to around 2010, that is up to engine number 437492. The dealer is talking crap.

I know it's available separately because I have a spare one in a box in the garage. I tend to keep stock of parts reputed to give trouble, that way I'm sure I'll never need them....:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Thank You for the Help

The pick up coil was the problem. It's back up and running. It starts just by touching the start button. It hasn't started that fast for a long time. Which makes me wonder maybe it was going bad for a long time.
Thank You for all the help. I greatly appreciate it.
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top