[jimmymc]

Hi Jimmymc, So you just used factory parts. I was looking at late bike with hydraulic switch recently. It seemed like steel pipe would’ve come up short. But you found it didn’t. This is a big deal, as it becomes a bolt on fix, that requires minimal fussing with installation.

Could you post some photos, as this would be helpful to others.
Don

Don
Yes standard factory parts. I have looked through my pics but could not find any of my install which is strange as I usually take loads of photos. I'll get some pics when next out in the shed, probably tomorrow. The parts were for a T140 but I wanted them for my T160 and I was advised that the steel pipes may not fit, but I only had to reshape them slightly.

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Don,

when I picked up my T160 a few years ago, it had that type of switch fitted, although it was red in colour so much more noticeable than yours. I was not enamoured by it. so I fitted the T140 hydraulic brake switch. I just needed to bend the pipes a little but it works great
60-7177
60-7178

So you just used factory parts. I was looking at late bike with hydraulic switch recently. It seemed like steel pipe would’ve come up short. But you found it didn’t. This is a big deal, as it becomes a bolt on fix, that requires minimal fussing with installation.

You're extrapolating incorrectly from @jimmymc's post.

For readers not familiar with with the T160 and/or the part numbers Jimmy posted:-

. The numbers are specifically '79-on twin single-disc parts between the top and bottom yokes.

. '79-on twin has essentially the same top yoke as the T160, in this case specifically the brake hose-pipe connection through the yoke will line up with the end of the 60-7177 "Pipe - top lug [yoke] to 'T'". This is specifically not the case with a '73-'78 disc-braked OIF twin like @thoresonr Thor's.

. '73-'78 disc-braked OIF twin, it makes not a blind bit of difference where using 60-7176 "[Brake switch] 'T' piece" and 60-7178 "Pipe - 'T' to middle lug [bottom yoke]" ends up positioning the "T", because the pipe between the "T" and '73-'78 top yoke hose-pipe connection cannot be a "factory part", it must be made specially.

. Aside, the reason Jimmy "needed to bend the pipes a little" is T160 yokes are further apart vertically than any OIF twin's. I know this because I tried fitting a Meriden OIF twin-disc kit to one of my T160's; however, unlike Jimmy, my pipe-bending didn't work, I couldn't get the joints to seal; having wasted too much expensive DOT5, I bought a Les Williams lower yoke "crossover pipe" and made Goodridge hoses to fit.

You'll be very good at double flares & bending tubing by time it's fitted

This plus one pipe must be made specially to use just one short '79-on "factory" pipe (60-7178), unless a '73-'78 disc-braked twin owner wanting specifically the '79-on pressure switch position has at least the special pipe bending and flaring tools already, I'm dubious the cost in time, parts and tools is worth it even compared to braided hose?

Hth.

Regards,

 

[jimmymc]

@TR7RVMan Don
Here are some pics as promised. Apologies that they are a bit busy, but short of disconnecting all wiring, that's the best I can get.
As @StuartMac said, this was for the 79 on T140. I made the small bracket, and reshaped the steel pipes a little, the rest were off the shelf parts

Apoligies for the crud and dirt on the bike, but it has sat neglected in the shed for the last 18 months. I will be getting it all tidied up over the next few weeks

 

[TR7RVMan]

Hi Jimmymc, Thank you. Looks like that worked out quite well.
Don

 

[thoresonr]

I’ll get a picture tomorrow but I looked at the pin that sticks out on front brake lever. It looks to be clear/white plastic (like the switch shown earlier). It doesn’t look to be straight on with the lever but at an angle like it has gotten bent or cracked. With it bent it could be hanging up on the rubber around it.

A thought I had: could the clutch be slipping if it had too much oil in the primary side? I wonder because now that I got the rocker seals done, I’m not seeing oil from there but found another oil spot on the garage. It’s from the primary rear drain or adjuster plug that’s about 15 degrees up from level ground. There is always a decent puddle when parked too.

 

[TR7RVMan]

Hi thor, On primary breather bikes such as T140, the primary oil will self level in 10-15 miles, often less.
The extra oil will be sent to frame.
Depending on how much oil was in frame at the same time primary was overfilled, oil will run out filler neck when cap is removed. Or at least you’ll see obvious higher level in frame. From cold morning in garage to hot oil after 50 miles the hot oil will expand about 3/4-1” in frame. Next morning it’s lower again. I check oil level hot about 5 min after arriving home. Top as needed. Learned this from Rambo. Works good.

Diagnosing oil leaks seems straightforward. However, oil can be blown in unexpected directions. Hosing off the suspected areas and adjoining areas with garden hose can help clean off oil residue. Then begin road tests of short duration, even a just few blocks. Inspect with flashlight & mirror. Ride farther & inspect as needed. Coating areas with talcum or baby powder can help show oil leak point as powder will collect oil.
Laying on ground looking up at front sprocket you can see if oil is coming from that area. Again flood this with water to rinse off residue oil. Chain lube can collect here & simulate leaks also.
On the most stubborn cases, I’ll use leak dye kits sold at auto parts stores, eBay etc. They can be very valuable. But again in even a few blocks due traced oil can spread a long ways.

Leaks must be repaired as you find them, best you can. Then recheck. Can be a process sometimes.

Long rides, which heat soak motor will bring on, leaks possibly not observed before.
The primary drain plug is very prone to leaking. A dowty washer from local hydraulic supply house works quite well. Same for trans drain plug.

Shake powder around alternator wire grommet. This is very common point of leakage. Often hard to see. It runs down slowly into the gap at case halves & drops off bottom of primary case area & wind spreads it.

How did you clutch rod adjustment turn out?

Sorting an old Triumph often turns into a real process that can take hours & hours. Factory could be sloppy on assembly. Owners or mechanics that didn’t have the skills or take the time to properly repair faults.

Once the sorting process is finally completed these bikes work really well, run like you hoped, they would, clutch works like you’d want & expect it to, & are leak free. 200 hours goes by in a flash, but there truly is an end to this sorting. Once sorted it’s just riding & routine maintenance. Finally you’ll have your dream bike.
Don’t give up!!
Don

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Thor,

pin that sticks out on front brake lever. It looks to be clear/white plastic (like the switch shown earlier). It doesn’t look to be straight on with the lever but at an angle like it has gotten bent or cracked. With it bent it could be hanging up on the rubber around it.

Nothing - certainly no "rubber" - around it as standard.

could the clutch be slipping if it had too much oil in the primary side?

As Don posted, '70-on Triumph twins, that vent the crankcase through the primary, will set their own primary oil level irrespective of how much an owner puts in there.

However, another thought is, what engine oil are you using? Its container must specifically say one of the specs. it meets is "JASO MA2" - this is one spec'd by the Japanese motorcycle industry to ensure the oil lacks the friction modifiers that promote clutch slip.

found another oil spot on the garage. It’s from the primary rear drain or adjuster plug that’s about 15 degrees up from level ground.

Drain and level plugs, I've always thoroughly degreased both male and female threads then reassembled with blue Hylomar and a sealing washer. Of the ones you've listed, Triumph didn't fit the adjuster plug with a seal, the plug has a short thread and myriad DPO before you have been simply cranking on it to try and get it to stop leaking ... but have distorted the threads instead ... blue Hylomar might stop it leaking ...

Hth.

Regards,

 

[thoresonr]

As found. But my kit doesn’t have the black cup that goes in front of the spring.

The Lockheed manual is hard to see the picture on which way the rubber seal is supposed to be oriented. Is it correct the way it is now?

 

[thoresonr]

It did have the extra cup in it. Just hidden

 

[thoresonr]

Master cylinder hack!!! Using the Oring tool to keep the umbrella seal from flaring out.

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Thor,

Lockheed manual is hard to see the picture on which way the rubber seal is supposed to be oriented. Is it correct the way it is now?

If you mean the conical seal on the piston in your photo., it's on the correct way 'round. If you think about it:-

. when you're using the master to apply pressure to the pads through the slaves, you want the same pressure to open up the widest part of the cone and press it hard against the master cylinder too;

. however, when you release the pressure, you want a little less friction between seal and cylinder so the spring doesn't have such a hard time pushing the piston back, which also takes the pressure off the slaves and the pads.

Hth.

Regards,

 

[Rancidpegwoman]

 

[thoresonr]

Brakes feel better today. A tiny but squishy but it doesn’t travel all the way to the throttle anymore. Plus the Dot 5 fluid is purple which is neat.

Took a ride to day. Did a clutch adjustment per the Raber’s video with turning in screw until it catches and then back off a 1/2 turn. Immediately it feels so much better in clutch feel but still slipping.

Going to try out my new clutch spring tool until I was met with this:

Not sure how to adjust springs. I guess the bolts hit the bottom of the brass nuts?

 

[thoresonr]

7 plates as advertised. No clue on how much material there should be but it’s pretty thin. You’d think the clutch material would cover the whole bare plate.

If y’all think these are ok I’ll just clean them and score up the bare plates and assemble.


Also, the last friction plate was against the basket.

my neighbor says the metal plates are glazed as it looks to him it got hot.

 

[StuartMac]

Hi Thor,

Brakes feel better today.

A tiny but squishy

I sometimes find some bikes need a little riding around to shake the last bubbles loose from crannies in their brake system(s). Certainly on a Triumph, "squishy" shouldn't persist.

the Dot 5 fluid is purple which is neat.

The Bel-Ray I use, the purple fades to green, no idea why.

View attachment 806376
Not sure how to adjust springs. I guess the bolts hit the bottom of the brass nuts?

Owning a tool to adjust standard clutch spring nuts, the nuts in your photo. look like a solution in search of a problem?

I'd be concerned the nuts in your photo. could hit the inside of the primary cover when you pull the handlebar clutch lever - Triumph didn't leave a lot of room inside anyway and if your bike has additional plates, moving the pressure plate closer to the primary cover anyway ...?

View attachment 806378
View attachment 806379
No clue on how much material there should be but it’s pretty thin.

Looks good?

You’d think the clutch material would cover the whole bare plate.

Only in a dry (no oil) clutch.

Otoh, because there's some oil in a Triumph twin's clutch, there must be spaces for it to be squeezed into when pressure's applied to the plates. Otherwise the oil'd stay between drive and driven plates, lubricating between them like a bearing.

I’ll
score up the bare plates

No. Stupid idea:-

. your View attachment 806380 shows a DPO has done this already;

. the "scores" can trap oil when pressure's applied to the plates:-

Did a clutch adjustment per the Raber’s video
Immediately it feels so much better in clutch feel but still slipping

...

my neighbor says
it looks to him it got hot.

Mmmm-hmmm ... slipping clutches get hot ...

Maybe consider replacing the bare plates and not scoring the new ones?

Hth.

Regards,

 

[newsh]

You can check wear of the complete clutch pack by measuring total thickness, for a standard clutch pack I believe this is 1.4”. I’m not sure what it is for a 7 plate but @TR7RVMan Don will confirm. You can then compensate to a certain extent for wear by increasing pressure on the springs by further tightening of the nuts.
Those brass hex drive clutch spring adjusters, while being very pretty, are not going to allow correct adjustment of spring tension. In fact I think this is probably your problem.
Correct tension of springs is likely to be achieved with the end of the bolt somewhere between bottom and top of the slot in the standard nut. But these hex drive nuts will not allow this as the bolt will force the allen key out of its hex.

So I would suggest:
Clean everything up, don’t do any more scoring.
Either source a set of standard slotted nuts or cut a slot in your brass ones so they can be tightened with a screwdriver, you will need to buy the tool or make one with a gap to clear the thread of the screw.
Reassemble and tighten till the screw thread is flush with the top of the nut. (Looks to me like this will be several turns more than the amount of compression in your pics). From memory this is how my 7 plate is set up, pull is easy enough for 2 (arthritic) finger actuation and it does not slip.
Check the pushrod adjustment again with the cable disconnected. Check you can still pull the clutch ok and if so test it for slipping.

It would be good to know what springs you have in there, normal practice is to fit 650 springs with the 7 plate but there are several variants, some of them too weak. There is a table on here, posted in my “Heavy Clutch and Reluctance to Change Gear” thread, with dimensions of the various available springs, length, wire thickness and number of coils. My bike came to me fitted with 750 springs so strong I couldn’t pull the lever. The correct 650 springs, adjust to Don’s method fixed this without slip.

 

[newsh]

See below

 

[newsh]

Here’s the thread, sorry it’s long !

TR7 Heavy Clutch and Reluctance to Change Down

Here’s what I’ve done so far. Dismantled cleaned and inspected plates. Fitted new 650 springs. Adjusted spring tension to minimise wobble. Adjusted pushrod clearance and cable according to manual and advice on this forum. Fitted new lever. Fitted new Venhill cable. The clutch action is still...

www.triumphrat.net

 

[newsh]

Note @rambo ‘s clutch nuts are adjusted with approximately 3mm thread sticking out. Unusual but it works for him.

 

[TR7RVMan]

Hi Thor, Your friend is mistaken on the glazed plates. They will wear smooth from the modern friction material. The modern friction prefers smooth plates rather than roughened or etched. However the clutch should grip fine with your current plates.

Those are Hyde plates. They grip very well. Those friction pads are still ok, they come very thin. Thin like a playing card.

My hunch is your springs were not tightened enough. At this point, If it was my bike, I'd call MAP Cycles & ask if they will sell you their alloy pressure plate with the adjuster stem/ball. I would get new normal spring nuts..

Verify your springs are to 650 spec. 1-3/16 (1.812") long, about 9.5 coils, .098 wire diameter. If your springs don't measure that they are not like originals. In January I bought some 650 springs 57-1823 LF Harris UK made from Bonneville Shop & they are to that spec & the springs that I've found work well. You'll get no slip & still have a nice lever effort.

If money is no object I get 7 new plain plates. I've gotten them from Bonnie shop & they worked well.

There are some special things to look for in the basket & how the first plate fits in.

More later, got to run. Today's a ride day!
Don