[twlynch]

I am pretty sure this problem has been addressed, however, I am having no luck finding any data on it.

I am trying to shift to first from neutral and I hear some resistance....noise. It also happens when I come from 2nd to 1st. I don't remember it being this bad a month ago. I put in synthetic gear oil (can of worms...I know) about two weeks ago and I don't know if this exposing a problem that already existed when I purchased the bike or the synthetic oil is not playing nice inside the 4 speed. Any suggestions would be great....

Can this be as easy as a clutch adjustment? It only seems like the problem exists when going to first.

Any help would be great!
Tim Lynch


[ This message was edited by: twlynch on 2007-01-07 21:47 ]

 

[TRI-AL]

Why the synthetic oil? I wouldn't mess with th e stuff in that bike. First start with the RIGHT stuff- Castrol 20W50!
If I recall, correctly, the primary chain case and engine oil are "linked". i.e.- they use the same oil! There should be 3 tiny "overfill - level" holes in the side of the primary case that allows "excess" chain oil "back into" the crankcase. Therefore common oil! Then, yes it could be clutch adjustment, however, as noted on this forum, the slight "grind" into 1st from neutral is quite common, esp. when the bike is COLD! Not sure if it should also happen from 2nd to 1st....that may indicate more towards adjustment! Get That Synthetic Outta There! :hammer:

 

[twlynch]

Just a heads up...

I am running 20W50 in the primary / crank. I am running synthetic in the gear box.

 

[htown16]

I believe I would go back to dino straight 90w in the gear box. It apparently has the right viscosity to keep the gears from spinning when clutch is disengaged. See this tech article. http://gabma.no-ip.org/docs/grinding.pdf Hope this helps

 

[panda]

I think this may be a little bit of clutch drag. Do you separate the plates before starting?
I think from memory the oil should be straight 50 grade ep dino. but doubt 75-90 would hurt any.

 

[Mecchanica]

Far and away most shifting problems with Triumph 650s are actually clutch problems. The most common are uneven plate lift and plain plates which are too smooth. Sandblast the plain plates with coarse grit and adjust the pressure plate to lift dead even.
Stick with the synth in the gearbox, and get it into the engine at your earliest convenience.

 

[twlynch]

The Holy Mecchanica chimes in!

I don't have a sandblaster - can I use sandpaper to work on the clutch plates? Is this documented in any manual or is this tribal knowledge? I haven't got into the clutch before, but I can read!

Another thing that is killing me....It takes a lot of effort to disengage the clutch. The lever is a bear! This can't be normal....I think if this continues my forearm is going to be the size of a professional bodybuilder!

I LOVE THIS PLACE!

Tim

 

[GrandPaulZ]

Just rub the steel plates on a smooth sidewalk (not the slick kind, but not the "broom finish" kind either). Rub them is circles 'till they are uniformly roughed up and all glazing is gone.

You may need a new clutch cable, and a proper bottom-to-top adjustment by the book.

Adjust the 3 springs on the basket BEFORE you install the primary cover, that way you can nip them up slightly as required for the pressure plate to spin true when you pull in the clutch and kick the starter. If it wobbles, adjust the screws to even it ip.

 

[peintremondain]

to get an even lift of the clutch you can use a dial gauge.it's the more accurate way and the easier too... as long you have a dial gauge.
ben

 

[twlynch]

I keep hearing pull the clutch and kick the starter.....

I have to put the bike in neutral to kick start it. Is that not right? Every bike I have had in the past...I could hold the clutch lever in and crank....not this one!

Tim
72 Bonneville T120R

 

[GrandPaulZ]

Meriden Triumph kickstarters (and most bikes of that era) drove through tranny to the clutch to turn the crank, modern bikes' kickers drive the clutch basket directly, so it doesn't care what's happening "downstream".

 

[twlynch]

Can someone explain the operation of the clutch....

I understand pulling the lever puts pressure on the the mechanism in the transmission, how does this translate into the clutch? Does this piece of hardware connect to the clutch through the backside of the transmission? I have the shop manual, but I don't see where this connects to the clutch.

Any brief explanation (probably impossible for mecchanica) will help out tremendously!

Thanks!

 

[CommandoRdster]

Your gearbox oil is fine. it sounds like clutch drag to me. When you have your clutch apart to do what Mechanicca & GPZ said, which will hopefully fix it,check out the hub & basket. Where the plates slide back and forth need to be smooth. If there are any "teeth" worn into them, your clutch will not disengage completely, and drag. The only permanent repair is to replace them, but I have had temporary results by filing the teeth down as smooth as I can. This doesn't last long because all it does is give the plates even more room to hammer new teeth.

Also check the clutch push rod. It should move in & out freely, but should not wobble at all. If it does, its force is wasted in sideways motion, instead of the back and forth motion required to disengage the clutch. There are bushings in there you can replace, right guys? I'm not sure about Triumphs.

 

[GrandPaulZ]

twlynch:
"Can someone explain the operation of the clutch? I understand pulling the lever puts pressure on the the mechanism in the transmission, how does this translate into the clutch? Does this piece of hardware connect to the clutch through the backside of the transmission?"

Just inside the tranny cover is a little ball/ramp type mechanism that pushes towards the opposite side of the bike when it's rotated by pulling on the clutch cable. This mechanism pushes on a thin shaft that runs inside the tranny shaft to the clutch CENTER HUB, right through the engine to the clutch pressure plate, compressing the springs, relieving the pressure between the friction material plates and plain steel plates. This disengages the connection between the crankshaft and the clutch OUTER BASKET (and transmission, thus rear wheel). It also means that the connection between the clutch input shaft and output shaft is disengaged, which is why the kickstarter will just "fall through" unless you have the bike in gear, which will cause it to roll forward slightly. Hope that's not too hard to visualize. If so, have someone read it to you slowly while you try it!

Commando:
Yes, there is a little bushing pressed into the shaft that the clutch pushrod goes through.

Also, the slots in the basket that the clutch plate tabs are supposed to slide back and forth in can get notches worn in them, causing jumpy clutch action.

I imagine clutch-popping starts and loose primary and/or final drive chains would cause or contribute to this type of damage.

[ This message was edited by: GrandPaulZ on 2007-01-10 22:17 ]

 

[twlynch]

GPZ you are the man! That is exactly what I was looking for...just a general idea of the system.

I feel enlightened!

THX!

Tim

 

[CommandoRdster]

Right Paul, notches was the word I was looking for, not teeth,on the clutch basket.I shouldn't have used the word "teeth"on anything with a sprocket, unless I was referring to the sprocket itself. Sorry if I caused any confusion,twlynch.
:brk:

 

[GrandPaulZ]

Well, the clutch plates themselves DO have "teeth", and they do get bashed up from banging into the slots in the clutch basket, causing the mating faces to be mushroomed, and causing them to effectively "narrow", which creates a loose condition that makes the whole mating process worse, increasing the wear rate as you continue to abuse the machine.

So, you were not wrong, technically...

 

[twlynch]

You guys are great.....

Thanks for the help!