[tenex1]

Ok, there have been a few threads on this over the years. Last week my Scrambler (2016) left me stranded at work with an unfortunate clicking sound. It was pretty cold, around 20F in the morning, warming up to maybe 30F or so.

After pushing it up the hill to bump start (unsuccessfully) 3 times, I gave up and got a jump. After the requisite internet search, I figured out that indeed, the ECU was locking me out.

In the interest of science, I did a little experimentation with my marginal battery. With my garage at a temperature of 40 to 50F or so, I got one or 2 starts before the ECU started intervening. The threshold between start and lockout was between 11.4 and 11.5 volts, measured after the fuel pressure and gauge init, just before hitting the starter button.

95% of the usage is to and from work, a 10 minute 4.5 mile ride. I would hope this is enough to keep the battery up, but maybe not. The battery in my ZR-7 (same battery, also 2 years old) was better, but not by much.

While a new battery is in my future, I'm looking for a little insurance. does anyone have an opinion on this device:
https://www.amazon.com/Wagan-EL9796...=8-3&keywords=cigarette+lighter+jumper+cables

The price is right, and I can wire it into a battery tender extension. At least I know all the cars in the parking lot have cigarette lighter sockets

Cheers,
Steve.

 

[Felony]

When I lived in Boston my commute to work was within the city, 2.5miles. I never road my bike to work. If I had your commute, I wouldn't crank up the bike either. But, that is just nutz that the ECU would lock out at 13.4V. All those other bike models and brands that have ECU and don't have this wonderful feature. Just how fragile is a Triumph ECU for the twins? Don't think this feature is on any other Triumph model. No opinion on that starter boost.

 

[Tornado99]

A better option for emerg starting is an actual jump start battery like this:

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B071KX5VCX...&pd_rd_r=464bbc48-fffc-11e8-ade5-fb19e6f8bfdd

No need to find someone to aid you. And, you can take it to any other car/bike when it's needed. Also some have USB ports to run/charge your phone etc. and some even have built in flash lights...all very useful in remote areas etc.

Another thing you might consider....pull your starter relay out, pop the plastic cover off to see how the contacts operate, note where the actuator contacts sit relative to the cover housing. Drill a small hole directly through the cover outside the actuator plate contact....refit it all back on bike. Now, whenever the battery is marginal, ECU cutting it out, you can overide by poking a platic straw/wooden stick etc through the hole to gently force the contacts together...Full battery power now reaches the starter solenoid. It also bypasses the Triumph idiot safety defeats....so ONLY DO THIS WITH NEUTRAL SELECTED!!! This has fired up my bike a few times on cold mornings. I keep the wooden push stick taped to the relay, taping over the open hole as well.

 

[Thruxty]

My take....short commute doesn't give the battery a chance to replenish, particular if used every day without supplemental charging. Wouldn't it be best to simply hard wire a battery tender lead, then regularly (not necessary every day, but periodically overnight) charge it. Tender is an easy connect/disconnect in a few seconds once a hard wire lead is installed. Should keep your battery nicely charged up for those frequent short trips.

Am I missing something here?

Through the winter this has been my approach, so the bike is always ready to go should the temps rise. You're a brave sole riding when temps are in the 20s!

 

[Ripper]

95% of the usage is to and from work, a 10 minute 4.5 mile ride. I would hope this is enough to keep the battery up, but maybe not. The battery in my ZR-7 (same battery, also 2 years old) was better, but not by much.

It takes more than a 4.5 mile ride to keep the battery up. It will fade from full charge over some time as the battery gets a little more depleted after each run.

The price is right, and I can wire it into a battery tender extension. At least I know all the cars in the parking lot have cigarette lighter sockets

It would make more sense to use an automatic battery tender at home, if the bike is kept in a garage. The tender can then be plugged in after each run or once a week. My keyless ignition draws a tiny current even with the bike switched off, and this will flatten the battery in about two weeks of being stored, so I have fitted the Powerlet socket to the bike and modified the battery tender cable by swapping the battery connectors for a Powerlet plug. The bike gets plugged in if its going to lay idle for more than 2 days. Of course there's no need for you to do that, battery tenders come with a tail that attaches to the battery with a small connector so you can just plug right in, but the Powerlet socket has a few advantages for me.


There is also a couple of things you can do to preserve battery power so that the battery stays up for longer:


Change all lighting for LED, including the headlamp - especially the headlamp.

Fit a MOSFET regulator for more efficient charging.
Set the engine idle speed to 1100rpm so that the bike gets some charge at idle.
Fit a headlight control module, to keep the headlamp off until the engine has started.


You can also bypass the ECU low voltage threshold. Personally I'm not a fan of doing this but many people have done it without issue. The ECU provides the ground to the starter relay, and if the battery voltage falls below the threshold the ECU refuses to provide the ground and disables the starter. All that is needed is to disconnect the Yellow/Brown wire from the starter relay and replace it with a wire going straight to ground. @Forchetto also came up with a great solution with no need to play with wiring, just a hole drilled into the starter relay and a button installed, to manually force the relay contacts together for 'emergency' starting.

 

[tenex1]

When I lived in Boston my commute to work was within the city, 2.5miles. I never road my bike to work. If I had your commute, I wouldn't crank up the bike either. But, that is just nutz that the ECU would lock out at 13.4V. All those other bike models and brands that have ECU and don't have this wonderful feature. Just how fragile is a Triumph ECU for the twins? Don't think this feature is on any other Triumph model. No opinion on that starter boost.

Well, looks like my brain is in moron mode today. I measured 11.4 to 11.5 volts, not 13.4 to 13.5, sorry about that.

11.4 isn't too unreasonable, I just wish the battery lasted a little longer than 2 years.

 

[Felony]

Battery life varies, but my batteries usually last 5-7 years. Those short rides aren't doing the battery a favor. My bikes when parked are always on a charger.

 

[tenex1]

A better option for emerg starting is an actual jump start battery like this:

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B071KX5VCX...&pd_rd_r=464bbc48-fffc-11e8-ade5-fb19e6f8bfdd

No need to find someone to aid you. And, you can take it to any other car/bike when it's needed. Also some have USB ports to run/charge your phone etc. and some even have built in flash lights...all very useful in remote areas etc....

My original plan was to just keep a 5 to 10 ampre-hour gel cell battery in my office just in case. I like the charging cable because it doesn't have a battery to maintain, and I can just leave it in my tail bag. In the good old days your maintenance overhead was the number of spark plugs in your garage. Now it's the number of rechargeable batteries you need to maintain. I hate batteries.

Ironically, the big pain was removing the seat. I had to use the factory supplied tool kit (Allen wrench) in the dark, and I had to borrow a quarter to take off the side panel to boot. I now have a large ball driver (and a quarter) in my tail bag.

Either way, I'm gonna leave a battery tender pigtail on the bike so I can use a tender/remote charger as required. The cigarette lighter charging adapter looked like a really clever idea, but seems like the construction leaves a little bit to be desired.

BTW, anybody using a Deka ETX12 battery in an A/C Bonneville? I think I'm done with Yuasa batteries for now.

Cheers,
Steve.

P.S. I appreciate to suggestion of an emergency starting battery, but I'm an old model airplane guy and I've seen so many defective cheap Lithium Polymer batteries burn up I'm afraid to leave one unattended in my bag.

 

[Ripper]

Ironically, the big pain was removing the seat. I had to use the factory supplied tool kit (Allen wrench) in the dark, and I had to borrow a quarter to take off the side panel to boot. I now have a large ball driver (and a quarter) in my tail bag.

Tool free fasteners are available.


https://www.tecbikepartsusa.com/Triumph_CNC_Alloy_Side_Panel_Seat_Screws_p/t-cnc-sps-s.htm

BTW, anybody using a Deka ETX12 battery in an A/C Bonneville? I think I'm done with Yuasa batteries for now.

Don't blame the battery, Yuasa are arguably the most reliable in the AGM category. Not done a price comparison but you would not benefit otherwise since the Deka has exactly the same specs as the Yuasa YTX12. The slightly (physically) larger YT12 used on the 2009-2010 EFI models can supply higher CCA (210 as opposed to 180) but is 15mm taller.

P.S. I appreciate to suggestion of an emergency starting battery, but I'm an old model airplane guy and I've seen so many defective cheap Lithium Polymer batteries burn up I'm afraid to leave one unattended in my bag.

At the end of the day these are just trickle chargers, and what you are not told in the adverts is that you have roughly a 30 minute wait whilst enough power transfers to provide cranking, which can only be done by the bike's battery. You would do better IMO by looking at how your battery is charging, for example on a short run such as you do, how much of that is spent, say, waiting at junctions or other situations where the engine is idling? If you can use ways to preserve battery power and give the battery the odd overnight charge you won't get any problems throughout the battery's life, whats more it doesn't cost anything.

 

[Tornado99]

At the end of the day these are just trickle chargers, and what you are not told in the adverts is that you have roughly a 30 minute wait whilst enough power transfers to provide cranking, which can only be done by the bike's battery. You would do better IMO by looking at how your battery is charging, for example on a short run such as you do, how much of that is spent, say, waiting at junctions or other situations where the engine is idling? If you can use ways to preserve battery power and give the battery the odd overnight charge you won't get any problems throughout the battery's life, whats more it doesn't cost anything.

Strange...each time I've needed to jump a bike or a car with my portable power pack, it got it going in under a minute or so. In fact most of these newer ones have some funky self-defeat function on the cable connector that shuts off output if not used within 60-90 seconds. Regarding keeping the battery juiced...mine seems to hold full charge more than 6+ months. I can keep it in my side bag on the bike and even in my jacket pocket for powering my helmet cam when recording all day.

 

[Ripper]

Strange...each time I've needed to jump a bike or a car with my portable power pack, it got it going in under a minute or so.

I would have to guess at the ah rating of the portable power pack but I would say no more than 5ah, the batteries in them can be deep discharged but nowhere near enough to supply the couple hundred amps required for a cold start. Therefore the cranking is done by the bike battery. The job of the portable supply is to put enough charge into the bike battery to pick it up enough to crank the engine.


I may be getting confused about the waiting time, last time I looked the manufacturer was specifying 20-30 minutes wait, but thinking back this was one of those that plugs into the car's lighter socket. The one you link to seems to go directly onto the battery via croc clips which would probably mean that the battery would suck all the life out of the portable supply within seconds. I'm not that up to date on lithium technology but this would seem to me that the portable battery is capable of very rapid discharge.

In fact most of these newer ones have some funky self-defeat function on the cable connector that shuts off output if not used within 60-90 seconds.

That's more than likely a protection mechanism to prevent over rapid discharge of the portable battery. Discharging a lithium battery too fast is explosive, and some kind of protection circuitry would be required not only to prevent the battery from discharging too fast, but also prevent it from discharging completely.

Regarding keeping the battery juiced...mine seems to hold full charge more than 6+ months. I can keep it in my side bag on the bike and even in my jacket pocket for powering my helmet cam when recording all day.

Yes one thing lithium batteries are very good at is holding charge over time. The helmet cam is very low powered so would not be a problem to keep going for hours.

 

[RichBinAZ]

If you need to get your bike jump started, you need something that connects directly to the battery or start motor terminal/ground. That device going thru the cigarette lighter can only allow as much current as the fuse at either end will allow... not enough for a jump start.

I ride my bikes to the gym mostly - 5 miles each way and have only had a problem when the regulator failed to charge the battery (other than regular battery death by hot climate)
When you get your bike started, keep the voltmeter on the battery and check the output as the revs are raised from idle to about 3-5K rpm. That will tell you if your regulator is any good.
Also run the bike at idle for about 5 minutes to see if the voltage climbs and is actually recharging the battery. I feel that the battery should be recharged in less than a couple of minutes of a normal start or normal driving - unless it took a lot of cranking to get it going. This test will show you how long it takes... just don't do it in a closed [email protected]#@!

It may be more cost effective to get some motorcycle sized jumper leads Of course you have to get the seat off...

 

[Tornado99]

The jump start power pack I use can jump up to 8 cars on one full charge as per product details. Sure, it's not doing a fully dead batt jump...just getting a marginal charged battery over the top. The cablage has a black box in line which gives polarity confirm. Blinking LEDs to alert to incorrect polarity and for time out shut down. The pack I have claims 8000 mAh or something like that. Other similar devices are gaining a following for motorbike...I think a popular brand is AntiGravity or something like that. I got mine at a local drugstore in the gizmo section for half price...and like I said it has given me more than 6-7 emerg startups now in the past couple of years. No complaints.

 

[Mr72]

Well, looks like my brain is in moron mode today. I measured 11.4 to 11.5 volts, not 13.4 to 13.5, sorry about that.

Thanks for correcting that. Requiring 13.4V to start would be pretty ridiculous, since 12.8V should be nearly fully charged and >13V is really only likely when it is fresh off of a wall charger.

If your battery is not 11.4V then it's really truly dead.

BTW I marvel at how short-lived motorcycle batteries are. I think it's the charging tech that's typically used. In cars, an AGM battery in my area can typically last 10+ years and 100K+ miles. The fact that AGM batteries last less than 1/4 that time on motorcycles is telling.

--

I have one of these jump packs and it's been a lifesaver on numerous occasions. I wouldn't take a long motorcycle trip without it. It usually lives in my Jeep as a standard part of my recovery kit which includes an air compressor, recovery straps, a small tool kit, etc. Again, I would never take a long trip without it, and I have helped many people out with this little Li-Ion jump pack. Only time it failed to work was somewhere between here and South Padre Island we stopped for lunch and a poor guy with a work truck with a big diesel engine and twin [dead] batteries. Not enough juice to jump that vehicle. But ordinary cars and SUVs? No sweat. Hardest part of using it on a motorcycle is getting to the battery. Frankly bump starting is so easy, it's usually not worth the effort of removing the seat.

 

[Felony]

Motorcycle batteries are small when compared to car batteries. They don't tolerate the same abuse or charging issues and are very prone to sulfation that will shorten the life span. The initial commissioning of the battery is also very important and you don't really know what was done when you buy a battery "ready to go". Unless you have a volt meter installed, you don't really know the health of the charging system unless you perform periodic output checks for the stator and R/R and check the connections for corrosion. Remember those tools for cleaning the terminals for your car battery? Well, a bike should be no different. My Yuasa batteries usually last at least 5yrs if not over 7. My bikes are always hooked up to a charger when parked. Admittedly, I don't ride the miles per year that many do and I don't do a lot of stop and go, commuting either.

 

[Tornado99]

"Batteries don't die, they are murdered!"

Proper treatment should give you 5-7 yrs for a motorcycle battery. If you are having to replace it within short lifespans, then suspect your RegRec is not controlling voltages within spec. Easy to test.

 

[tenex1]

Thanks for correcting that. Requiring 13.4V to start would be pretty ridiculous, since 12.8V should be nearly fully charged and >13V is really only likely when it is fresh off of a wall charger.

If your battery is not 11.4V then it's really truly dead. .

BTW I marvel at how short-lived motorcycle batteries are. I think it's the charging tech that's typically used. In cars, an AGM battery in my area can typically last 10+ years and 100K+ miles. The fact that AGM batteries last less than 1/4 that time on motorcycles is telling.

Yup, sorry about that, good thing I'm not an accountant:|.

I threw the battery on a 3/4 amp tender and in 3 hours it was showing green and good to go, not a good sign. That's 2.25 amp-hours between barely starts and "full" charge. after a day or so it's already down to 12.4 volts at rest (RIP is more like it).

I tend to agree with the charging comment, I would suspect that as a class motorcycle batteries get driven harder into over charge than a car battery. I may buy myself a clip on current probe for Christmas just to see what's up, always wanted one of those things.

 

[H3CT1C]

95% of the usage is to and from work, a 10 minute 4.5 mile ride. I would hope this is enough to keep the battery up, but maybe not.

Well, my commute is 7 mins / 3 miles and the Shorai lithium battery is fully charged even if I *only* get to ride to/from work for a week. The MOSFET reg/rec with it's superior charging probably plays a big part!

Tim

 

[Mr72]

Well, my commute is 7 mins / 3 miles and the Shorai lithium battery is fully charged even if I *only* get to ride to/from work for a week. The MOSFET reg/rec with it's superior charging probably plays a big part!

Tim

This is likely a combination of a higher-capacity battery which both loses less charge while sitting and also has more reserve capacity, plus a reg/rect which is capable of charging at lower rpms so more of the time you are riding is used to charge. My non-Triumph bike with MOSFET reg/rect and a typical AGM MC batt also stays fully charged even when only riding short trips, in my case almost all 2-mile trips to the grocery store and back, never exceeding 5K rpm. It may be more the reg/rect than the battery chemistry then, but both work together.