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What kind of engineer?

There are inhibit switches that keep an otherwise working igniter from igniting. If the sidestand is down, or if the sidestand switch doesn't work, then the bike has to be in neutral and the neutral switch has to work.

If the side stand is down or the switch is broken, and you pull the clutch in, the starter will operate but there's no spark unless the trans is in neutral.
 

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Discussion Starter #22 (Edited)
What kind of engineer?

There are inhibit switches that keep an otherwise working igniter from igniting. If the sidestand is down, or if the sidestand switch doesn't work, then the bike has to be in neutral and the neutral switch has to work.

If the side stand is down or the switch is broken, and you pull the clutch in, the starter will operate but there's no spark unless the trans is in neutral.
I'm a mechanical engineer. Thanks for clarifying the way the inhibit switches work. I have tested each switch and tried to get a spark ensuring the side stand is up, it's in neutral and for good measure, I held the clutch in too. I also assume that as the neutral lite is on then it confirms the switch is working. I will check that the signal is getting back to the ignitor socket. I have also tested the continuity of the cooling fan as I see that goes back to the socket too. There really aren't many connections to the ignitor. It's weird that it has all worked, then stopped. The identification of the intermittent trigger coil (now replaced) but now dead again. I don't know if anyone has experienced an intermittent fault with an Ignitor or if they can be reset somehow?
 

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There is a jumper under the seat plugged into the alarm connector, unless you have the alarm installed. Without this jumper it will always think the sidestand is down.

The logic is a little complicated. To have spark, the side stand must be up or the trans must be in neutral. A failed clutch switch should only affect the starter motor. It is a two position switch, so it's in the starter circuit in both positions, in and out. If the clutch is out and the trans is in neutral the starter will run. If the clutch is in the starter will run regardless of gear, but the ignition won't fire if the sidestand is down unless it is in neutral.

I have also tested the continuity of the cooling fan as I see that goes back to the socket too.
Not sure what that has to do with it. The cooling fan circuit is independent of everything else, even the ignition switch.

There really aren't many connections to the ignitor.
Are you sure you're looking at the igniter? There should be a 10 or 14 pin plug. You've got three coil triggers, 2 inhibitors, the pickup coil, power, ground, tach, and a partridge in a pear tree.
 

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Discussion Starter #24 (Edited)
Are you sure you're looking at the igniter? There should be a 10 or 14 pin plug. You've got three coil triggers, 2 inhibitors, the pickup coil, power, ground, tach, and a partridge in a pear tree.
This is the plug/socket I'm referring to which I believe to be the igniter.
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I think this is the Jumper you refer to?
I've had that apart and cleaned it but it looked OK.

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I'm not sure how to check everything at the socket is how it should be. All I've been doing is using my meter to check there is continuity from a socket pin to a component. That's when I had a connection from one pin to the cooling fan connector but as I say I'm not an electrical expert.
 

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Discussion Starter #26 (Edited)
Yes, that's the igniter and yes, that's the jumper.
I have checked that the side stand switch is working and I can test that at the Ignitor Plug. Also the same with the Neutral gear switch. I've now run out of checks other than the ignitor but I'm still dubious that the Ignitor has a fault. Although if it's possible for that to be intermittent maybe it's finally had enough. I'm now thinking of ordering an Ignitech unit which the forum seems to like. If that doesn't solve it then I've still got a better ignitor that won't start an engine lol.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
Have ordered an Ignitech unit with all the cables etc. for £168. Meanwhile, I've been trawling through the forum and found a bit on checking the voltage at the coils. Have I understood this correctly? With the ignition on, I check the voltage across the charged battery which is 12.63V. I then check the coils from their 'common live' to the negative on the battery and I also get 12.63V on each. I then crank the engine with the same connections and I get 10.4V. If I've understood it correctly this is normal and 10.4V is enough to create a spark?
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Yes, that's about as good as you can expect.
Thanks for confirming WSC, it was one of your posts that I found. So, the voltages are normal at the coils. The trigger coil is new, set with the correct gap (0.8mm) and there is 530ohms at the ignitor socket. I fully understand the failsafe sequence of the side stand, clutch and neutral and have tested with the stand up, in neutral and clutch in for good measure but don't get a spark. The clutch switch is new. The side stand switch works when testing it at the ignitor socket. The neutral light comes on and, even if the switch was faulty it should fire up with the clutch in? As you have said, for there to be no spark it's primarily going to be the failsafe element so,
1. Can the failsafe system switches be bypassed to eliminate them?
2. If the ignitor is faulty is it probable that all sparks fail at once?
I've got the Ignitech unit on the way anyway but I would like to have a definite source of the fault.
I really appreciate your help WSC. I keep finding your posts and replies on this subject and I'm learning and understanding so much more about electrical circuits and testing.
 

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The neutral light comes on and, even if the switch was faulty it should fire up with the clutch in?
Only if it "knows" the side stand is up.
1. Can the failsafe system switches be bypassed to eliminate them?
Jump the sidestand switch to ground and you eliminate any "Safety fail" for the ignition. (Not true for the starter; the clutch switch is still affecting it.)
2. If the ignitor is faulty is it probable that all sparks fail at once?
Entirely possible. It depends on the nature of the fault.

You might want to give the crank sensor a real close looking at. It tested bad, and the likelyhood of two simultaneous failures is near zero. If you have a sensitive volt meter you might want to check for AC millivolts at the igniter plug. I think someone else may have discussed the particulars in another similar thread recently.

Here: Unusual Ignition Issue (Post #48)
 

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Discussion Starter #31 (Edited)
Jump the sidestand switch to ground and you eliminate any "Safety fail" for the ignition. (Not true for the starter; the clutch switch is still affecting it.)
I jumped the socket and also connected to ground but no change.
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You might want to give the crank sensor a real close looking at. It tested bad, and the likelyhood of two simultaneous failures is near zero. If you have a sensitive volt meter you might want to check for AC millivolts at the igniter plug. I think someone else may have discussed the particulars in another similar thread recently.
I tried this as well. I connected the Ignitor socket to my meter. First it showed 539ohms.
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Then I changed to AC millivolts and turned the crank by hand. I got various readings as the rotor passed the sensor.

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I did video the meter as I cranked it
 

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Not by hand.
Connect , start with starter motor.
Good and fast viewing it changes quickly.
MV 1368 good Pic Up. ( value varies )
Triumph does not pass values but I assume up to 5 volts to CDI. ( Not substantiated ) of course than when the engine is running.
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Succes Jan.
 

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And if the pick up is broken, you can always make a cupboard out of it.
Then you will never forget that it was broken. :);)

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Discussion Starter #34
Not by hand.
Connect , start with starter motor.
Good and fast viewing it changes quickly.
MV 1368 good Pic Up. ( value varies )
Thanks for your help. This was the reading I had when using the starter motor. (Meter set on 2V AC)
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Wires still connected at the ignitor socket. Air gap at 0.8mm. Not sure if the reading will change if I narrow the gap?
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Thanks for your help. This was the reading I had when using the starter motor. (Meter set on 2V AC)
View attachment 726114
Wires still connected at the ignitor socket. Air gap at 0.8mm. Not sure if the reading will change if I narrow the gap?
Just changed the Gap to 0.6mm and it increases the reading to .440 on the same meter setting. Still no spark on this setting.
 

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Your cdi is still not there I understand.
Do this also if you have the opportunity, and materials.
It gives a signal so is not open.
If the ohms remain stable when warm, then I say this is good.

But understand i am not an engineer , and no electrician.

Only have the weird habit of measuring something if it's right, if it is then not, it must be broken.
No guarantee , certainly not from a distance.
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Discussion Starter #39
OK, so I think we can assume the crank sensor is good.
I agree. I think we've pretty much exhausted everything bar the Ignitor? Could you clarify for me that when I bridged the side stand socket and connected it ground, then the failsafe element, that would normally prevent a spark, has been bypassed?
 
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