Triumph Rat Motorcycle Forums banner

1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,522 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I know that this is very novice of me, but when I went from a smooth running Yamaha to a raging bull like my TT600, I can't help but be confused about a few things. My questions concern low speeds around town. It's tricky riding around at 25mph, because if I'm under 5,800rpm the bike tends to surge a little. I know the cam in this thing is very radical, so I'm thinking that is normal. So I ride around in 1st turning 6,000rpm at 27ish mph. Is that pretty much what everyone else does? Also, when performing a low-speed turn, once the rpm hits 3,000 the power really comes on, thus making a smooth turn sometimes difficult. Is this also common? Should I just expect this and deal with it? Again, I know this is pretty novice of me, but I'd feel a heck of a lot better if I knew this was normal, and also maybe some tricks to help the situations that come with riding a hotrod rather than a moped. Thanks



[ This message was edited by: BombFactory on 2006-11-21 22:49 ]
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,713 Posts
If you richen up the mixture a bit by increasing the CO percent a bit and make sure the throttle bodies are synchronized, that will go a long way toward solving the surge. TT600s are very sensitive to being set up properly, but once you get 'em right, they are great.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,522 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Thanks Will. I'm thinking about buying the Tuneboy system, so hopefully that will allow me to get the optimal running conditions. Until then, is the CO adjustment manual, or do you need a computer program (I'm guessing computer)? If it is manual, a walk through would be helpful. I just synced the TB's.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
220 Posts
A TuneBoy-treatment by a local, well-respected tuner here has solved all of these problem with my son's Daytona 600. He took the relevant TuneBoy-tune as point of departure, but spent a lot of time on dedicated changes in the mappping. It resulted in a different bike, engine-wise! It is very smooth now from 2000 rpm onwards, much stronger between 3000 and 6000 than it was before. The tuner didn't really aim for more top-end power, but 108 hp at the rear wheel is a healthy figure anyway.
Here a view and the sound of the bike on the testbench (I posted this already in another topic):
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4X9R0CX3a8

[ This message was edited by: Cornelis on 2006-11-22 07:06 ]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
603 Posts
On 2006-11-21 23:36, BombFactory wrote:
is the CO adjustment manual, or do you need a computer program (I'm guessing computer)? If it is manual, a walk through would be helpful. I just had the throttle bodies synced. Thanks again
You need Tuneboy (or a dealer) to change CO value
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
136 Posts
OT

Is the black tach face a stock TT600 item?

Nevermind, I just noticed the bike in the video was a D600.

[ This message was edited by: petesgti on 2006-11-22 09:36 ]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
132 Posts
In a tight turn, drag the rear brake. This makes turning easier from a chasis perspective, as well as better regulating power to the rear wheel. Try it.

Low speed drivability on the 600cc fours is not a function of the cam, but rather a combination of lean fueling, and a FI computer that is just not quick enough to keep up with the changes in fueling demands.

My Speed Four is the best bike I ever rode on a race track, yet one of the most disappointing daily riders ever. That said, I am keeping mine. It's those days at the track that I'll remember for years, not the trips back and forth to work.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
220 Posts
On 2006-11-22 09:51, banda wrote:
In a tight turn, drag the rear brake. This makes turning easier from a chasis perspective, as well as better regulating power to the rear wheel. Try it.

Low speed drivability on the 600cc fours is not a function of the cam, but rather a combination of lean fueling, and a FI computer that is just not quick enough to keep up with the changes in fueling demands.

My Speed Four is the best bike I ever rode on a race track, yet one of the most disappointing daily riders ever. That said, I am keeping mine. It's those days at the track that I'll remember for years, not the trips back and forth to work.
There are other solutions than using the rear brake to overcome what is basically a mapping problem. A good tuner, using TuneBoy, can change this completely, this has nothing to do with Fulel Injection not being quick enough to keep up with the changes. My sons's Daytona 600 is completely cured.

[ This message was edited by: Cornelis on 2006-11-22 12:39 ]
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,713 Posts
As I understand it, most of the reasons for low speed running problems are due to regulatory issues. If you look at the factory maps, you will see a wierd timing gulf around 4K rpm, and some other anomolies where it gets leaned out oddly at certain rpms and throttle openings. That has to do with noise and emissions regulations and how they are measured. When you are doing an aftermarket map, you don't much care about that kind of thing, so you can make it run right without having to solve that problem, so that is really the only advantage any of us has over the factory, and it is why a factory map isn't always the best map.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
132 Posts
On 2006-11-22 12:33, Cornelis wrote:

There are other solutions than using the rear brake to overcome what is basically a mapping problem. A good tuner, using TuneBoy, can change this completely, this has nothing to do with Fulel Injection not being quick enough to keep up with the changes. My sons's Daytona 600 is completely cured.
True, but you can turn a tighter smoother u-turn any day of the week when you're dragging the rear brake... doesn't matter what you're riding or how it's fueled. I promise. If you're not dragging the rear brake in your u-turns, you're just making life hard for yourself.

I'm off now to send a note to the major motorcycle manufactureres to let them know they've been on the wrong path with ever faster EFI computers. That switch from Sagem to Kehin was apparently just a waste of their time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
220 Posts
On 2006-11-22 13:31, banda wrote:
On 2006-11-22 12:33, Cornelis wrote:

There are other solutions than using the rear brake to overcome what is basically a mapping problem. A good tuner, using TuneBoy, can change this completely, this has nothing to do with Fulel Injection not being quick enough to keep up with the changes. My sons's Daytona 600 is completely cured.
True, but you can turn a tighter smoother u-turn any day of the week when you're dragging the rear brake... doesn't matter what you're riding or how it's fueled. I promise. If you're not dragging the rear brake in your u-turns, you're just making life hard for yourself.

I'm off now to send a note to the major motorcycle manufactureres to let them know they've been on the wrong path with ever faster EFI computers. That switch from Sagem to Kehin was apparently just a waste of their time.
Nowhere am I suggesting that it doesn't make sense to install faster ECU's, but I wonder what the advantage is if manufacturers do not use the existing ones to their full potential. But if you like to be cynical, go ahead and enjoy.
I've only stated my and my son's experience with a (Keihin injected) Daytona 600, and the problems fully cured with the help of the TuneBoy-enabled access to the ECU. And don't forget the input of a professional tuner and his testbench.
Though my Speed Triple didn't suffer from the same problems as the Daytona, fine-tuning the mapping has brought me a much smoother (and 9 hp stronger) running engine.
.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
Does the tuneboy really make a significant difference? I generally try and smooth things out a bit with the clutch at low speeds.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,713 Posts
TuneBoy is only a tool. It lets you remap the fueling, and remap the ignition. If you plug it in and just look at things, then you are just looking at things.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
220 Posts
On 2006-11-22 16:17, Will wrote:
TuneBoy is only a tool. It lets you remap the fueling, and remap the ignition. If you plug it in and just look at things, then you are just looking at things.
Correct, it is a tool that - provided you bought a key - allows you to remap ignition and fuel, but also allows to calibrate the speedometer, to change the rev.limiter, to adjust the temperature at which the fan comes in, to alter the idle revs, etc. etc., plus a full diagnostic mode.
To get the maximum out of it, you must have access to a testbench and to the brains of somebody who knows what he is doing. If you don't, it will be very difficult to cure the Daytona's (and the S4's) problems. The guy I went to is a real professional, a well-respected tuner and ex-racer, who is very enthousiast about the opportunities offered by the Tuneboy-system. 'A tuner's wet dream' he calls it, because of the unlimited direct access to the ECU, as opposed to piggy-back options like the Powercommander.
He spent a couple of hours with the Daytona (and earlier, with my S3), with quite a number of testruns to check changes made.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
Will, I was wondering if the Tuneboy was used properly to set up the bike would it make a marginal or a big difference? Once you add in the cost of the unit plus the time of someone who knows what their doing, maybe adding a pipe and K&N's etc the cost is heading north towards a sizable chunk of a new bike.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
91 Posts
Hey Bombfactory, I live here in the city too. Here's what I would suggest. Buy clutchnthrottle's tune that he created. Don't bother buying the Tuneboy cable because they jacked the price up to $280 now. Get the TuneEdit key from Tuneboy instead and then take your bike down to Desmoto on 9th street and have them install Clutch's tune for you. They use Tuneboy software down there and they're cool peeps to deal with. I've taken my '00 TT down there many times to get my fuel mixture leaned out/richened up and they rarely charge me anything to do it. Maybe that's just because I'm a super duper cool guy though. :-D
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
8,713 Posts
On 2006-11-22 16:43, ManxKat wrote:
Will, I was wondering if the Tuneboy was used properly to set up the bike would it make a marginal or a big difference? Once you add in the cost of the unit plus the time of someone who knows what their doing, maybe adding a pipe and K&N's etc the cost is heading north towards a sizable chunk of a new bike.
No, done right, you will probably spend $400 or $500 on dyno time and the operators help, $400 or so for a cable and unlock code for TuneEdit, and whatever you spend on a pipe. A K&N filter doesn't make all that much difference, except that you don't change it so I don't consider that part of tuning. My personal opinion is that the OEM filters that Triumph uses are just fine unless you are really on the ragged edge. An expensive pipe is probably $500 on ebay. So, that adds up to $1500 if you are really going whole hog. If you can buy a new bike for that, I would like to get to know your dealer. Also, if you buy a new bike, it may have tuning issues that you will spend money dealing with anyway. Or, if you are like me, you will spend money on your new bike, just because you can't leave well enough alone! :razz:

If you like your Speed 4, and that solves the running problems, then it is worth it. I have heard of people getting very good results by loading the 2001 Triumph TT600 race pipe map (10091) into Speed 4s that have open pipes, and I have also heard that the California secondary injecton map for Speed 4s works well on non-California bikes. I don't have a Speed 4, and I don't have a TT600 any more, so all my information is getting a bit stale or is second hand. There are people here who have done those things, and they can tell you what happened. If one of those maps works, then you don't need the professional tuner or the dyno time. Likewise, if somebody with a really good map is willing to share it with you, or even sell it to you for less than you would spend on dyno time, then you save money that way, too.

I get a big kick out of looking at the maps to try to figure out why they work one way or another, so if any of you have maps that you can send me, just to look at against the stock maps, I would really enjoy having them to compare. I won't use them, and I also won't pass any maps along unless whoever sends it to me says I can.

[ This message was edited by: Will on 2006-11-22 18:52 ]
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,522 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Thanks a lot everyone for your input, and thanks MercuryMan76 for the advice and letting me know about Desmoto's. I'll have to swing by there next time I need something. What color is your TT600 so I can keep an eye out?

As for the Tuneboy, I'm going to go ahead and buy the starter kit, not only for the tuning capabilities but also just for the fact that the dealership wants $45 to just tell you what the error code is when the check engine light comes on. I'm planning on owning Triumphs from now on, so I can't see how I can loose out on spending $430. It will pay for itself eventually. I also have experience with computer controlled management systems on cars and my roommate is a Mitsubishi tech, so I'm going to have a blast tuning the TT600.

As for the comments about what tuning can do, at least with my experiences with cars, tuning can make a huge difference. Like a few people have pointed out, the factory needs to meet regulations so they can't tune the bikes to the greatest performance. A good tune can really make an engine come alive. Plus it would be nice to get rid of those low-rpm issues. I also don't agree that you MUST have a professional do the tuning, nor do you need a Dyno; although I will agree that it is much easier to use a dyno and to have someone else do the work. If you read up on what all the specific adjustments affect, and you make sure to keep a good data history as you adjust, it can be a really fun experience. That is one of the things that I love about motorcycles: I ride them and I work on them. I'm sure I'll be asking some questions about what maps some people have used. Again, thanks for all the info. Happy Thanksgiving everyone.
:chug:

[ This message was edited by: BombFactory on 2006-11-22 22:41 ]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
91 Posts
On 2006-11-22 22:36, BombFactory wrote:
Thanks a lot everyone for your input, and thanks MercuryMan76 for the advice and letting me know about Desmoto's. I'll have to swing by there next time I need something. What color is your TT600 so I can keep an eye out?

As for the Tuneboy, I'm going to go ahead and buy the starter kit, not only for the tuning capabilities but also just for the fact that the dealership wants $45 to just tell you what the error code is when the check engine light comes on. I'm planning on owning Triumphs from now on, so I can't see how I can loose out on spending $430. It will pay for itself eventually. I also have experience with computer controlled management systems on cars and my roommate is a Mitsubishi tech, so I'm going to have a blast tuning the TT600.

As for the comments about what tuning can do, at least with my experiences with cars, tuning can make a huge difference. Like a few people have pointed out, the factory needs to meet regulations so they can't tune the bikes to the greatest performance. A good tune can really make an engine come alive. Plus it would be nice to get rid of those low-rpm issues. I also don't agree that you MUST have a professional do the tuning, nor do you need a Dyno; although I will agree that it is much easier to use a dyno and to have someone else do the work. If you read up on what all the specific adjustments affect, and you make sure to keep a good data history as you adjust, it can be a really fun experience. That is one of the things that I love about motorcycles: I ride them and I work on them. I'm sure I'll be asking some questions about what maps some people have used. Again, thanks for all the info. Happy Thanksgiving everyone.
:chug:
I ride a black and yellow TT. You wouldn't happen to own the all yellow would you? Actually, probably not if yours is a 2000, as I think they were the black and yellow, and red and silver color schemes that year. I've only seen one or two other TT's on the road out here. Saw an all yellow one riding down Duboce st. the other day. These are definitely bikes that people will stop and look at. I've had many thumbs ups and even when I'm up at Alice's on Skyline people will stop and check it out since it's not your run of the mill Japanese bike. Keep in touch, man. Maybe we can hook up and go riding one of these days. It'd be nice to have another TT in the pack.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,522 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
On 2006-11-23 01:28, MercuryMan76 wrote:
I ride a black and yellow TT. You wouldn't happen to own the all yellow would you? Actually, probably not if yours is a 2000, as I think they were the black and yellow, and red and silver color schemes that year. I've only seen one or two other TT's on the road out here. Saw an all yellow one riding down Duboce st. the other day. These are definitely bikes that people will stop and look at. I've had many thumbs ups and even when I'm up at Alice's on Skyline people will stop and check it out since it's not your run of the mill Japanese bike. Keep in touch, man. Maybe we can hook up and go riding one of these days. It'd be nice to have another TT in the pack.
I actually live down in San Mateo, but do make it up to SF every now and then. I ride a Yellow/Black TT600. The front fairing is a one-piece Sharkskinz that doesn't have the TT or Triumph decals. I've yet to see another Triumph on the road :evil: I'm actually just sitting here waiting for the sun to evaporate a little more of the water from last nights rain, and then I'll be heading up to Alice's. I've yet to take the TT600 down Hwy 84 to the coast and I figure the traffic should be light if not non-existent today. I'd definitely be down to meet up one of these days.



[ This message was edited by: BombFactory on 2006-11-23 10:47 ]
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top