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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi all.
I have a 73 750 tr7rv Tiger with Bonneville heads, Pazon E.I., fully charged battery, timing is right on the money, a pair of 32mm VM Mikuni's, 77.5mm 9.5:1 pistons.
Now I've just had my right hip replaced September 1st and the bike is kicking back in a rather vicious manner, which hurts my right leg.
The kick back has over time gotten worse.
What am I missing ?.
Any input would be appreciated.
 

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Hi Bob,
Only one reason your bike would kick back is the ignition is too far advanced. I'm not familiar with Pazon, but like all systems, you would have timed it at full advance (about 3000-5000 rpm)
For some reason it is not retarding at lower rpm. If you connect a strobe light and watch the mark on the alternator rotor, you should see it move as the revs increase and in the opposite direction when revs decrease. I suspect the latter is not happening or there is a 'rogue spark' happening on start up. Either way, the Pazon E.I. needs to be examined. Hopefully others who are familiar with this system can add there thoughts.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Hi Bob,
Only one reason your bike would kick back is the ignition is too far advanced. I'm not familiar with Pazon, but like all systems, you would have timed it at full advance (about 3000-5000 rpm)
For some reason it is not retarding at lower rpm. If you connect a strobe light and watch the mark on the alternator rotor, you should see it move as the revs increase and in the opposite direction when revs decrease. I suspect the latter is not happening or there is a 'rogue spark' happening on start up. Either way, the Pazon E.I. needs to be examined. Hopefully others who are familiar with this system can add there thoughts.
So, with that line of thinking, would that be the little brain box ?.
I do have to correct one thing I stated, I did retarded the timing about 3 degrees and it made no difference.
 

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Hi Bob, A few thoughts. I had a lot of problems with kicking back for a time. Very seldom does that anymore. Timing must be no farther advanced than 38b. You may consider 36b which on your bike the the has mark will be 3/64" towards front wheel from pointer. Also you must verify with TDC tool that 38 line on rotor is actually to pointer. They can be even 1/16" off.

Next is starting mixture. Too lean will almost guarantee kicking back. I don't know if you have chokes or not, but consider some choke for starting, even warm. Experiment with that.

Finally cranking speed is very important. A weak or slow kick will often kick back. I always clock my kicker to horizontal which gives more effective leverage, thus faster turnover. Also see if zero throttle during kicking helps.

Finally I have to use side or center stand. I'm too weak & short to hold bike. I had right knee injury. I had to use left foot. I used center stand. Practiced with key off many times to get the feel. I got really good at left foot kicking for some months until right knee healed. Several in club had knee problems & use left foot for years.
Don
 

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Hi all.
I have a 73 750 tr7rv Tiger with Bonneville heads, Pazon either, fully charged battery, timing is right on the money, a pair of 32mm VM Mikuni's, 77.5mm 9.5:1 pistons.
Now I've just had my right hip replaced September 1st and the bike is kicking back in a rather vicious manner, which hurts my right leg.
Hi Bob, sorry - can't really help with the kick back issue, I have a 73 TR7RV in more or less std trim. But I am very impressed that you can kickstart the bike only a couple of months after a hip replacement! Gives me hope for the future - even though my 66 yo knees and hips seem to be in good order - so far.....

I rebuilt my bike last winter and since it needed a rebore I went for 7.4:1 pistons, hoping for an easier start. Indeed, it is an easy start now, usually first or second kick, and it never kicks back now either - but I suspect that's because I got the timing and carburation (new Amal carb too) the way the bike likes it - but probably more by luck than judgment. Equally, I may have lost a bit of power by going for lower compression, but I really don't notice it, and the torque is still excellent. And I get ~63 mpg.

Good luck with the hip - getting older sucks!
 

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Hi Bob, sorry - can't really help with the kick back issue, I have a 73 TR7RV in more or less std trim. But I am very impressed that you can kickstart the bike only a couple of months after a hip replacement! Gives me hope for the future - even though my 66 yo knees and hips seem to be in good order - so far.....

I rebuilt my bike last winter and since it needed a rebore I went for 7.4:1 pistons, hoping for an easier start. Indeed, it is an easy start now, usually first or second kick, and it never kicks back now either - but I suspect that's because I got the timing and carburation (new Amal carb too) the way the bike likes it - but probably more by luck than judgment. Equally, I may have lost a bit of power by going for lower compression, but I really don't notice it, and the torque is still excellent. And I get ~63 mpg.

Good luck with the hip - getting older sucks!
Hi all.
I have a 73 750 tr7rv Tiger with Bonneville heads, Pazon E.I., fully charged battery, timing is right on the money, a pair of 32mm VM Mikuni's, 77.5mm 9.5:1 pistons.
Now I've just had my right hip replaced September 1st and the bike is kicking back in a rather vicious manner, which hurts my right leg.
The kick back has over time gotten worse.
What am I missing ?.
Any input would be appreciated.
Bob, I have three 60s/70s Triumphs, one a 750 short rod and one an 825cc Routt motor. Both of those are very highly modified with 10.5 / 11.0 compression. Both also use ARD mags so timing locked at 38 btdc. After one torn up knee and surgery and two broken / cracked ankles, I got extremely "gun shy" when kicking them. That was the problem, I was more focused on getting off the kicker quickly than a full on kick through. I had to really concentrate on trying to kick my foot right through the ground to get them started. I always use mucho gas,, Monobloc ticklers and Mk II enrichening plungers. .
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Bob, I have three 60s/70s Triumphs, one a 750 short rod and one an 825cc Routt motor. Both of those are very highly modified with 10.5 / 11.0 compression. Both also use ARD mags so timing locked at 38 btdc. After one torn up knee and surgery and two broken / cracked ankles, I got extremely "gun shy" when kicking them. That was the problem, I was more focused on getting off the kicker quickly than a full on kick through. I had to really concentrate on trying to kick my foot right through the ground to get them started. I always use mucho gas,, Monobloc ticklers and Mk II enrichening plungers. .
Unfortunately being gun shy with kicking the bike IS one of my problems, under normal circumstances when starting my bike - I give it a kick - it kicks me first, then the following kick it fires up, but as it stands - it keeps kicking me, so I've had to resort to clutch starting it on a hill.
It use to start a lot easier, there were times when I'd get the kicker halfway down and it would fire right up, then it would hurt my leg from extending out too fast ( I can't win ).
I just finished taking the Mikuni's apart and giving them a good cleaning, especially the pilot jets.
I'll throw them on tomorrow, if needed - I'll change out the Pazon module.
I'm in New England ( western Mass ), it's going to be near 60 degrees and would like to take one last long ride before pulling the engine for a winter rebuilding.
 

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I sure hope it all works out. I'm 74 years old and can't sacrifice many more knees or ankles, but I still like to kick them to life. .
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I sure hope it all works out. I'm 74 years old and can't sacrifice many more knees or ankles, but I still like to kick them to life. .
Thank you.
I'm about to find out, I pulled the Mikuni's off the engine for a cleaning and make sure the jets were clear.
And someone mentioned that it's possible the module (Pazon) may be malfunctioning - advancing through the kick instead of higher Rpm's, I have another module, so I'll change that as well.
So we'll see what happens.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Thank you.
I'm about to find out, I pulled the Mikuni's off the engine for a cleaning and make sure the jets were clear.
And someone mentioned that it's possible the module (Pazon) may be malfunctioning - advancing through the kick instead of higher Rpm's, I have another module, so I'll change that as well.
So we'll see what happens.
I took the scooter out and it still gave me problems starting.
It kept kicking me back almost like I have low voltage at the battery, the battery is fully charged.
Got it clutch started, took it for a short ride, and it's acting like I have a weak cylinder, like a coil is going or a spark plug.
I did recently change the NGK B8ES to resistor plugs.
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Thank you.
 

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Put some Champion plugs in . I would also check the plug caps as they can burn out a resistor if fitted. I chased a misfire around for quite some time and it was a plug cap.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Tom
Put some Champion plugs in .
To morr
Put some Champion plugs in . I would also check the plug caps as they can burn out a resistor if fitted. I chased a misfire around for quite some time and it was a plug cap.
I never gave any thought to the spark plug leads, but I think I'll start with new plugs first, then maybe the plug wires.
Good thing I always keep spares of almost everything needed.
Thanks for you in-put.
 

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Hi Bob, Just a thought.

I just ran into this again on a bike a few weeks ago. Champion N3, turned into N3C (copper core), now has turned into 801. Just keep that in mind, it's the same plug as N3C.

Here's the thing, the threaded on tip where plug wire hooks to has a tendency to work loose. I was getting an odd misfire & looked at plug lead. It wasn't fully down. Turned out the tip had almost come unscrewed. A friend of mine was riding his Bonnie down the freeway & it started running on one cly. Looked down & plug wire was blowing in the breeze. The tip had completely unscrewed. Working on friends bike in my garage last week I took plug lead off to gain clear access to wiring. The plug top was 1/2 way unscrewed.

Cure is remove top cap, place small split type lock washer over threads. Screw on cap tightening it gently with pliers. Ace Hardware sells the perfect size washer. I found no matter how tight I cranked tip down it vibrated loose. I tried a star type lock washer I had on hand. It didn't help much, but the split washer works really well.

Another thought. I've never used Mukuni carbs. 2 guys in club I've ridden with have them. One a T140 bonnie, the other a Norton, with special manifold to use 1 Mukuni. I think about these things & observe things. Both bikes tend to start worse than bikes with Amal concentric. Why is that? Is this common or is there a problem with those bikes? I don't know.

Obviously electric starting is an answer but we're not talking about that. Were sticking to basically kick start bikes, I get than 100%. I've a fair amount of experience low compression pistons. So far they provide better starting cold or hot. That is again, another subject.

When I worked at Harley dealer there were a lot of old guys with kick start pan heads. Funny, I'm an old guy now, 69.

Anyway old Windy Lindstrom would make extended kicker levers. He too 2 levers & sliced them on a bias about 3" long. Then ground the ends to good fit & alignment. Brazed them together. Painted black or had chromed. As I recall added about 3-4" to length. Muffler clearance was not problem on these bikes. Same with Sportster kickers.
I was 18 years old 120# soaking wet. I struggled with kicking these big motors. Finally got the knack. However the longer levers were a Godsend. Super easy to start. The 74s were good starters with the old Linkert carbs. Sportsters were not easy starters & liked a fast cranking speed. No ticklers. I've always thought when I get there, I'll extend the kicker. There may be aftermarket longer levers, I don't know that. The Norton owner with Mukuni has a longer lever than normal. Off later bike?? Anyway I feel it's still too short.

Do you set lever to compression, then pull clutch & clock it to horizontal? Then kick from there. If not I'd strongly suggest that. It makes a huge difference. The old retirees I ride with, we all do that. John is 74 & always clocks the lever.

As I recall you increased performance of motor. That can sometimes cause a little harder starting. That's a hard pill to swallow for us old guys when it starts harder.

John's bike tended to ping fairly bad. Decent starter. Took top end off to reseal cyl base & tappet blocks. Found loose bushing in left rod. That lead to full overhaul. He installed 7.1 unleaded pistons on his '69 Bonnie. It starts & works so good I can't believe it. I'd expect it looses some power, but in real life you'd not know they are 7.1 in normal riding, even at high elevations. It pulls the passes & takes strong headwinds just fine. 2 up no problem. It's an option if all else fails.

Clocking the lever has helped me immensely. Actually kicking back is what messed my right knee up in the first place. Short tickling was probably root problem when it happened. At the time I didn't clock lever. I started clocking it when I had to do left foot kicking. Worked so good, I stuck with it ever since. Everybody that tries it so far, sticks with it.
Don
 

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Hi Bob,
I would imagine that you originally had standard plugs with 5000 ohm resistor suppressed plug caps (or maybe resistor carbon leads).
When you added the 5000 ohm resistor spark plugs, did you change the plug caps (or leads if they are the resistor type). To straight through non resistor types.
If you did not, then you will have 10,000 ohms resistance in the HT system, this is too much.
It has to be one or the other, high resistance ht leads or high resistance plugs.

regards
Peg
PS; I have managed to convert 5000 ohm NGK plug caps before, unscrew the inner part and replace the resistor with a piece of copper (taken from a piece of thick wire), the plug cap was then zero ohms resistance.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Hi Bob, Just a thought.

I just ran into this again on a bike a few weeks ago. Champion N3, turned into N3C (copper core), now has turned into 801. Just keep that in mind, it's the same plug as N3C.

Here's the thing, the threaded on tip where plug wire hooks to has a tendency to work loose. I was getting an odd misfire & looked at plug lead. It wasn't fully down. Turned out the tip had almost come unscrewed. A friend of mine was riding his Bonnie down the freeway & it started running on one cly. Looked down & plug wire was blowing in the breeze. The tip had completely unscrewed. Working on friends bike in my garage last week I took plug lead off to gain clear access to wiring. The plug top was 1/2 way unscrewed.

Cure is remove top cap, place small split type lock washer over threads. Screw on cap tightening it gently with pliers. Ace Hardware sells the perfect size washer. I found no matter how tight I cranked tip down it vibrated loose. I tried a star type lock washer I had on hand. It didn't help much, but the split washer works really well.

Another thought. I've never used Mukuni carbs. 2 guys in club I've ridden with have them. One a T140 bonnie, the other a Norton, with special manifold to use 1 Mukuni. I think about these things & observe things. Both bikes tend to start worse than bikes with Amal concentric. Why is that? Is this common or is there a problem with those bikes? I don't know.

Obviously electric starting is an answer but we're not talking about that. Were sticking to basically kick start bikes, I get than 100%. I've a fair amount of experience low compression pistons. So far they provide better starting cold or hot. That is again, another subject.

When I worked at Harley dealer there were a lot of old guys with kick start pan heads. Funny, I'm an old guy now, 69.

Anyway old Windy Lindstrom would make extended kicker levers. He too 2 levers & sliced them on a bias about 3" long. Then ground the ends to good fit & alignment. Brazed them together. Painted black or had chromed. As I recall added about 3-4" to length. Muffler clearance was not problem on these bikes. Same with Sportster kickers.
I was 18 years old 120# soaking wet. I struggled with kicking these big motors. Finally got the knack. However the longer levers were a Godsend. Super easy to start. The 74s were good starters with the old Linkert carbs. Sportsters were not easy starters & liked a fast cranking speed. No ticklers. I've always thought when I get there, I'll extend the kicker. There may be aftermarket longer levers, I don't know that. The Norton owner with Mukuni has a longer lever than normal. Off later bike?? Anyway I feel it's still too short.

Do you set lever to compression, then pull clutch & clock it to horizontal? Then kick from there. If not I'd strongly suggest that. It makes a huge difference. The old retirees I ride with, we all do that. John is 74 & always clocks the lever.

As I recall you increased performance of motor. That can sometimes cause a little harder starting. That's a hard pill to swallow for us old guys when it starts harder.

John's bike tended to ping fairly bad. Decent starter. Took top end off to reseal cyl base & tappet blocks. Found loose bushing in left rod. That lead to full overhaul. He installed 7.1 unleaded pistons on his '69 Bonnie. It starts & works so good I can't believe it. I'd expect it looses some power, but in real life you'd not know they are 7.1 in normal riding, even at high elevations. It pulls the passes & takes strong headwinds just fine. 2 up no problem. It's an option if all else fails.

Clocking the lever has helped me immensely. Actually kicking back is what messed my right knee up in the first place. Short tickling was probably root problem when it happened. At the time I didn't clock lever. I started clocking it when I had to do left foot kicking. Worked so good, I stuck with it ever since. Everybody that tries it so far, sticks with it.
Don
I've never had a cap on a spark plug come loose, I have however had the wire at the spark plug end come loose and kill the plug, I didn't understand at the time what was happening and went through a bunch of plugs till I replaced the spark plug leads and have never had that problem crop up again.
As for the Mikuni's, there is no choke, they do have an enrichment lever that lets the carb run very rich on start-up, let it rev a few times then shut of the enricheners, keep your hand on the throttle till it warms a bit and the rpm's come up.
Hi Bob,
I would imagine that you originally had standard plugs with 5000 ohm resistor suppressed plug caps (or maybe resistor carbon leads).
When you added the 5000 ohm resistor spark plugs, did you change the plug caps (or leads if they are the resistor type). To straight through non resistor types.
If you did not, then you will have 10,000 ohms resistance in the HT system, this is too much.
It has to be one or the other, high resistance ht leads or high resistance plugs.

regards
Peg
PS; I have managed to convert 5000 ohm NGK plug caps before, unscrew the inner part and replace the resistor with a piece of copper (taken from a piece of thick wire), the plug cap was then zero ohms resistance.
I've got three sets of plugs to try out, N3C's, Denso W24EP-U, and NGK BE3S.
And a set of plug wires with new tips.
We'll see what happens.
If this doesn't help then I may start suspecting the NEW coils.
740914
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Here's a bit of an update.
In my stash of parts I found a couple Champion N3C's, put them in, changed the spark plug leads, then changed the Pazon module, got all the wires buttoned up.
Turned on the fuel, and the Mikuni enricheners, gave it a couple kicks, then turned on the ignition, kicked it - it kicked back, gave another kick with the throttle 1/2 open and it fired up, shut it off, waited a few moments, enricheners on, 1/2 throttle, this time no kick back, it fires up.
Going to take it for a ride and see if it behaves.
Don't wish me luck, just throw lots of money.
;)
 

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Do you have anyone wh can start the bike for you?
I don't mean this as a "fix" -but to eliminate the human factor.
If it starts ok, it's down to looking for a solution to your issue.
If it is still a pig, something on the bike is wrong
 

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They do need a fast kick with electronic ignition. I was having start troubles due to weak knees and at times, my boy had to start it. Then it started first kick. This month i have put in a thinner oil so i can start it in the colder weather. You might consider a fully synthetic oil which is often much thinner when cold anyway.
I am using N3C and never had a plug failure. I also have NGK plug caps and copper cored leads.
Something else to look for is a cracked coil top. Try starting and running in the dark and it will show up if it is. That is if you can start it !
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Do you have anyone wh can start the bike for you?
I don't mean this as a "fix" -but to eliminate the human factor.
If it starts ok, it's down to looking for a solution to your issue.
If it is still a pig, something on the bike is wrong
We'll I changed the plugs for a set of N3C's, put new ends on a set of spare plug wires, swapped out the Pazon module for another Pazon module, gave it a kick, it kicked me (I think it likes doing that), I kicked it again and this time it came to life.
You have no idea how many times I've called it a pig, or worse.
 
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