[KitNYC]

I was kinda doin' ok up til now. Life handed me lemons, I made lemonade. Then life came back & did Very Unpleasant Things with my fresh bowl of lemonade....

I went down to the garage today to try to be productive. It did not start well. There were no lifts available, & I had forgotten a few bits. So I swapped out my worn-out peg rubbers, tapped M8 threads into the TLS top clamp where I needed 'em, & drained my oil while waiting.

The lift became available, so I put the bike up, changed the filter, & noticed something wrong: 8000 miles has taken a major toll on the center portion of my 11-month-old Conti Road Attack. As in time for a new one. When I'm very, very broke.

Well, nothing to be done about that. Too much time lost to get into swapping in the shock, but probably just enough time to clean the chain & finally ditch the 19-tooth sprocket that came with this motor....

Washer successfully unbent, mechanic on duty kind enough to lend his air wrench, sprocket unscrewed easy-peasy! So, loosen up chain... Won't come much looser, but I manage to pull the old sprocket out & swap in the new. Bike in sixth, enough tightening happens with each revolution of the motor that I eventually feel the torque wrench click out its 132 Newton-meter warning. Out come the Vice Grips & the new washer is bent up on 2 sides. Let's just tighten this chain up and....

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? The eccentric seems to be siezed. After bending my spanner & gaining no ground at all with the brutish screwdriver-&-hammer method, I think I actually said "bugger all!" out loud. (Odd only because I usually curse in the President's English.)

So I try to figure it out. There is play side to side when the clamp is loose, but not when it's tightened. Looking at the exploded views, it seems like the eccentric should certainly be able to rotate if it's free to move laterally, but apparently that's not the case....

Eventually, I decide that despair is the better part of valor & resolve to waste money that I don't have on a car service back to my 'hood. So, I go to button everything up. Torque wrench at 55Nm for the eccentric pinch bolt, start turning, and....

****! ****ing ****er's ****ing well ****ed!!!

Somewhere around what felt like 10Nm, the bolt went loose again. Having replaced the bolt about a month ago, I was pretty sure it wasn't the stainless bolt that went....

****!!!! ***************************!!!!!!!!

And that's about where I am. Wondering vaguely whether I need to replace my rear wheel bearings as my mind refuses to think about the likely need for a new swingarm.

Anybody know if a T509 swingarm will fit? Will a Helicoil fix it? Should I just give up & pack it in?

 

[3banger]

http://timesert.com/

Also tell us more about this committee garage?

 

[KitNYC]

Thanks, man.

Anybody have any idea where I might find these Time-Serts in NYC? Are they vastly superior to Helicoils, just a little better, or pretty much the same?

Can anyone tell me the thread pitch of the bolt in question? I know it's an M14. (Hey Don! Guess what I wish I had right now!)

How far apart will things have to come for this?

Edit: Garage info here.

Thanks,
-Kit

 

[CharlieS]

Thanks, man.

Anybody have any idea where I might find these Time-Serts in NYC? Are they vastly superior to Helicoils, just a little better, or pretty much the same?

Can anyone tell me the thread pitch of the bolt in question? I know it's an M14. (Hey Don! Guess what I wish I had right now!)

How far apart will things have to come for this?

Edit: Garage info here.

Thanks,
-Kit

Just my 2 cents worth......Stay away from the helicoils. Just don't use them....Period. I have seen more helicoils fail.......and once they do, that's it. Standard and hardened threaded inserts are available. I stay away from the ones that have the prongs on them to lock them in. McMaster Carr sells the good ones....they have a slot in the top. Outside thread is a standard thread, unlike a helicoil. They can be installed using a bolt with a nut. And, they can be readily replaced. Another option might be to use a longer bolt with a nut, or double nut in this case.

I'm sure others with more experience with these bikes can offer you more detailed help. Just seeing the word helicoil causes a bad reaction from me.

Good Luck,

Charlie

 

[Shovelstrokeed]

In this case, I think he has no choice but to use a Heli-coil. The threaded portion of the assembly is underneath the free portion and I doubt the hole has sufficient clearance to get a flanged insert in there. Certainly there is not enough room for a bolt and nut to drive it home.

Most failures of the spiral insert type are caused by poor installation technique. The biggest mistake is usually using a hand held drill motor at too high a speed. The drill winds up wobbling and not producing a straight, clean hole. Then the tap is kinda forced into the sloppy hole, resulting in even more clearance issues. The job can be done by hand and done well but it is not for the inexperienced.

Best to take the part to a machine shop that does this work and have them mount the necessary parts in a vertical mill and do the jobe right. I think that is going to mean pulling the swing arm.

 

[CharlieS]

In this case, I think he has no choice but to use a Heli-coil. The threaded portion of the assembly is underneath the free portion and I doubt the hole has sufficient clearance to get a flanged insert in there. Certainly there is not enough room for a bolt and nut to drive it home.

Most failures of the spiral insert type are caused by poor installation technique. The biggest mistake is usually using a hand held drill motor at too high a speed. The drill winds up wobbling and not producing a straight, clean hole. Then the tap is kinda forced into the sloppy hole, resulting in even more clearance issues. The job can be done by hand and done well but it is not for the inexperienced.

Best to take the part to a machine shop that does this work and have them mount the necessary parts in a vertical mill and do the jobe right. I think that is going to mean pulling the swing arm.

[/I]

That insert I'm talking about is not flanged.......you can install it as deep in a hole as your tapping has allowed......I'm going to try to get more details on these inserts.....I have some around here somewhere....

But you are very correct.......pulling the swingarm and having a machinist do the repair on a mill would be the best bet.

 

[jay.levine]

Thanks, man.

Anybody have any idea where I might find these Time-Serts in NYC? Are they vastly superior to Helicoils, just a little better, or pretty much the same?

Can anyone tell me the thread pitch of the bolt in question? I know it's an M14. (Hey Don! Guess what I wish I had right now!)

How far apart will things have to come for this?

Edit: Garage info here.

Thanks,
-Kit

What a great idea, the garage share I mean. Wish they had something like that in the Twin Cities but I suspect the rental population is not large enough.

Good luck sorting out your thread issue

 

[oldndumb]

Ditto on wot most have said.

Helicoils are not the best option in all cases. But, as Shovelstroked said, they are acceptable if installed correctly. He is also correct in that no one can drill a true and accurate hole by hand.

TimeSerts are an excellent alternative, as well as KeenSerts. Sources for either can be located on the net. There are also several other variations, depending on the mfgr.

Several years ago when Porsche was having problems with head studs pulling out of the cases, TimeSerts were the authorized factory repair.

As far as KeenSerts go, I have seen them specified as lift point attach inserts for several aircraft power plant manufacturers for quite a while.

Getting back to Kit's problem, I also think his best alternative is the machine shop route. Since it is such a routine fix, it should not be an expensive fix. There are other kludges that could be done by the DIyer, but they are just that.....kludges.

 

[steventhechef]

S**t Kit, you must have run over a bus full of Chinamen!

Remind me not to hang around you as your bad Ju Ju might be contagious!!

FWIW I'd be doing it properly. Pull the swingarm, have the thread fixed properly and in a week or so you, your fixed swingarm and you new fandangled shocker can ride off in to the sunset.... or to Austin... whichever might be more pleasant!

Seriously though good luck and may less bad Ju Ju come your way

 

[KitNYC]

Thanks, Steven. Aussie slang always brings a smile to my face.

I'm off to see if the woman who owns the garage will sell me just the swingarm off the dead T509 in the back corner...

Cheers,
-Kit

 

[BMWK100]

Good luck! For all of those who admonish us who take our bikes to the shop for service, this is definitely ammunition for us. Time is money and it looks like our friend will be spending a lot of time AND money to finish this job.

Save your strokes and don't bother lecturing me about how easy it is to work on bikes.

 

[DEcosse]

I greatly respect my learned fellow TriumphRat.net members and especially oldndumb, whose counsel I value greatly.
I agree with the drilling concern in general - however at 14mm, I don't think there is too much concern.
Drill is only going to clear a very small amount of metal (the threads) from the current diameter & it should follow the existing hole quite readily.
You even have the top half clearance hole (which the drill should not cut) to serve as a guide to verticality

Care & attention should get this done adequately.

Get one of these kits and a 9/16 drill it to clear the old threads and repair it with the kit - cut the new thread & install the insert.

You will need to find a drill with a stepped shank of course

 

[seumas]

Dang Kit, you've got some seriously bad karma. You musta been a bad boy in a previous life.
Good luck with the repairs.

 

[KitNYC]

Meh. Time lost sure does suck, but I'll know it's back together right (or at least know where the mechanic screwed up) when it's back together. Other than the fact that I just don't have it to spare, $50 for a swingarm & $70 for 2-day shipping from Utah really ain't that bad. I'm also relatively sure I'll be riding it again by Monday; I'd be lucky to have a mechanic look at it by a week from Monday now that the season is here. (Not necessarily the riding season, but the thinking-about-riding season when the mechanics get busy.)

Compare & contrast with last year, when I got a quote of $500-600 & right away to swap out the motor & paid the shop to do it. 7 weeks later, I got the bike back along with a bill for $1200. It blew out a case bolt & dumped a quart of oil on me the day after I got it back, & a throttle cable fell off at 100MPH a week later.

So yes, this is costing me time and money, but most likely a lot less of both than taking it in would. You may have shops where you are that are more competent, more honest, and cheaper than what I have to work with in Brooklyn, but I'm guessing I still come out ahead doing it myself. If you're not mechanically inclined, the equation obviously changes....

*Anyway*... I snagged a swingarm from eBay, off of T509 SN 066xxx. 4 years older than mine, but half the mileage. Hopefully, I'll spend tomorrow taking everything apart...

Cheers,
-Kit

 

[KitNYC]

DEcosse, Seumas (and everybody from page 1 who I forgot to thank) - Thanks, hopefully this latest eBay purchase has it sorted.

Cheers,
-Kit

 

[frider]

If there is any way you can get the Bike in to Ramp..............

I know they aren't cheap.......and I know they (might) be closing in a few months, but their mechanical work seems to be A1.......the little I have used them....BUT I also see/hear no negative karma coming their way( mechanically) speaking......

I for one will be very sorry to see them go, if, and when they do!!!

lets hope your luck changes soon, Kit mate!!!!

 

[KitNYC]

Thanks, man. I just sold my LP collection to cover the swingarm & new rear tire, I don't even want to think about what I'd have to sell to cover shop labor!

Cheers,
-Kit

 

[frider]

LP collection.......dam...you ARE an old barsteward.....!!!!!!!!

 

[KitNYC]

Eh? You'll have to speak up, sonny, there were a lot of loud punk rock records in there!

 

[RexxyPup]

Not to P155 on your bonfire, but...

Kit,

be prepared for a few more expenses!

You will probably find the three cornered link that joins link-bone-to-shock-bottom-to-swingarm will be seized. On mine it was the needle bearings onto the shaft that runs through the swingarm. This can be a real pig to remove (mine took 4 hours) and you will need to make sure you have a long bolt that fits the thread internal to the shaft, as well as a large penny washer (cover the back with several layers of gaffer tape to protect the swingarm) to but up agains the swing arm, a nut to go on the bolt and several different sized spacers to pull against as you draw the shaft out through the swingarm. I used ring spanners, sockets, anything to hand.

One tip... you do not need to remove the shock to do the work, you can leave the top mount attached, but as you are changing the shock, it doesn't really matter

Do you have the workshop manual? If you don't, I can scan the relevant pages and email them to you if you need them.

You will then probably have to buy the following (taken from Bikebandit)

BEARING NEEDLE ROLLER 5559186-001 $26.19 (each) - two needed
SEAL 5559102-001 $4.87 (each) - two needed
SLEEVE, GROUND, 12x20x139 5569324-001 $55.87 (each) - one needed

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that your link is not seized and you get through this easily!

Rexx