[ppp]

Can i check the tps on my 2002 Daytona with an ohmeter?
I can't get TuneEcu to work because the driver won't load into it.
I can't get my VW/Audi code scanner to work.
It work start because its not getting any gas (all 3 spark plugs are dry)
Fuel pump and filter are good, sprays gas out of the tank.
Has blue spark on all 3 cylinders.
Air idle valve is good.
Changed ecu, not the problem.
The process of elimination says the tps is the problem.
I'm sure they work off of ohms, but there is 3 wires.
It would be easy if there were only 2 wires!

 

[DEcosse]

5K ohms resistance between + (pink) & - (pink/black)- the wiper (green/yellow) will vary by the throttle position.
(those colours are those on the main harness - if I remember correctly the wires on the actual TPS are different, so match up accordingly before you disconnect.
As far as voltage goes - when connected, 5V on pink wrt pink/black; green/yellow wrt pink/black will be ~ 0.6V with throttle closed, up to ~ 4V when wide open.

Bad TPS would not stop it from getting any gas.
Doubtful problem is TPS

 

[ppp]

Maybe the fuel map in the ecu is bad. It looks like ecu is not opening any of the injectors. There is blue spark on all 3 cylinders. If i can get TuneEcu to work should i flash in a new map? I have the massive midrange map.
What else could it be?
I pulled off the return (red fitting on top) quick connect fuel fitting and alot of fuel sprayed out. It looks like the fuel injection part of the ecu is bad because there is spark.

 

[mambrake]

5K ohms resistance between + (pink) & - (pink/black)- the wiper (green/yellow) will vary by the throttle position.
(those colours are those on the main harness - if I remember correctly the wires on the actual TPS are different, so match up accordingly before you disconnect.
As far as voltage goes - when connected, 5V on pink wrt pink/black; green/yellow wrt pink/black will be ~ 0.6V with throttle closed, up to ~ 4V when wide open.

Sorry to jump in this Thread But when I check resistance between Pink/Black and Green/yellow I get a variable resistance as I move the throttle but when I check between Pink/Black and Pink i get the infinity on my ohm meter or i just see a 1 which is infinity. My triumph shuts down as soon as i attempt to rev it up.

 

[DEcosse]

... when I check between Pink/Black and Pink i get the infinity on my ohm meter or i just see a 1 which is infinity....

Make sure you are on adequate range setting - for example if your meter is on 2K range, it will read "infinity" since 5K is greater than 2K.

 

[mambrake]

Make sure you are on adequate range setting - for example if your meter is on 2K range, it will read "infinity" since 5K is greater than 2K.

Ok and can you explain the voltage test so i can go try it now?? Is it done with the bike on or just the switch?? do i just probe the TPS without the harness on it? basically just the pins on the sensor or do i need the wire harness connector on it??

 

[DEcosse]

it is much more productive to use TuneECU and just read voltage off the screen
You really need that to do any meaningful diagnostics

 

[mambrake]

it is much more productive to use TuneECU and just read voltage off the screen
You really need that to do any meaningful diagnostics

Ok, now on the Ohms test. with throttle closed the resistance should start at 5K or lower? I read another thread that says this " The resistance should start high with the throttle closed, and go lower as the throttle is opened. The range is 5000 K. Ohm, to 1000 K. Ohm +/- 1000 K. Ohm"

So does it start at 5k with throttle opened and go down?? During my test on my 97 Daytona T595 it started .596 and started going up as i pressed the accelerator last i saw it was infinity with throttle fully opened.

 

[1997 t595i]

I'm having the exact same problem. Lots of spark, fuel pump is good and injectors are dry. I replaced the injectors foolishly and did not fix the issue.

Can the original poster let me know how the issue was resolved on their bike? Thanks.

 

[DEcosse]

Well, the OP was 9 years ago and hasn't been on the site since 2014 so I suspect unlikely you will get reply from that source. But TPS issue won't result in no fuel - poor running perhaps, but certainly not be devoid of any injection.

If you have spark, it confirms you have pulses from the CPS

You can confirm a fuel related issue by trying starter fluid (ether) down the Throttle Bodies - if indeed you have spark, it should at least fire and will confirm that

What have you done to confirm pump is good? Do you hear it 'prime' for 3 seconds after ignition on? Have you tried removing the TOP fitting (ONLY!!) and flowing into a jar? You should get could strong flow and it should run for 3 seconds then stop (although it may still drip/drizzle); to re-initiate the cycle, turn off/on the Kill/Run switch or key-switch.

Can you supply more history - running, deteriorated with poor running, then not at all? Working when parked up at some juncture then not when attempted after some (please specify) duration?
Never running while bike in your possession?

Do you have the Neutral Light on the Instruments? (good Solid Light)
Have you tried to start with the side-stand raised?

 

[1997 t595i]

Well, the OP was 9 years ago and hasn't been on the site since 2014 so I suspect unlikely you will get reply from that source. But TPS issue won't result in no fuel - poor running perhaps, but certainly not be devoid of any injection.

If you have spark, it confirms you have pulses from the CPS

You can confirm a fuel related issue by trying starter fluid (ether) down the Throttle Bodies - if indeed you have spark, it should at least fire and will confirm that

What have you done to confirm pump is good? Do you hear it 'prime' for 3 seconds after ignition on? Have you tried removing the TOP fitting (ONLY!!) and flowing into a jar? You should get could strong flow and it should run for 3 seconds then stop (although it may still drip/drizzle); to re-initiate the cycle, turn off/on the Kill/Run switch or key-switch.

Can you supply more history - running, deteriorated with poor running, then not at all? Working when parked up at some juncture then not when attempted after some (please specify) duration?
Never running while bike in your possession?

Do you have the Neutral Light on the Instruments? (good Solid Light)
Have you tried to start with the side-stand raised?

Thanks for the reply. I'm at a loss currently so I appreciate the input.

Spark is good. Verified with visual observation as well as ether spray.

Fuel pump has been replaced and it sprays fuel into the rail. I verified this by removing the theaded cap on the left end of the rail just past the return hose.

Bike has never ran while in my possession. The compression on all three cylinders is good.

Neutral light is on and is bright green with no flickering.

I have never tried to start the bike with the sidestand up.

 

[TTRIgnitionSystems]

If you have spark and can crank the bike, the safety system is satisfied. I can't see the sidestand switch being an issue.

 

[DEcosse]

The interlocks for crank and 'run' are different:
For starter, only interlock is the clutch switch
In order for engine to run, it needs to see Neutral OR Side-stand-up - I just suggest to raise the side-stand as it simply eliminates the neutral switch as a possible factor

However ..... the Coils and the Fuel Pump get their +!2V from the same source, what is actually designated as the Fuel Pump Relay (but it does actually also supply the ignition coils) - this relay is what would be shut off by ECU in event of the neutral/side-stand interlock being made: so fact that you have pump run & ignition pulses suggest that the interlock is satisfied.

The injectors get their +12V from the main power relay - that also enables the ECU so you would have to believe that should also be good - but you should validate that you do indeed have 12V on the Brown/Pink wires on each of the injector plugs with respect to battery negative (there should also be an unused junior timer connector in that same harness that has a brown/pink and yellow/red wire - you can also just check for the 12V there on the brown/pink - but again with respect to battery negative NOT to the Yellow/Red); all of those should be 12V with ignition on.

If you confirm the 12V is there, next check to see if the injectors are actually firing - put a screw-driver against the solenoid and crank the engine (helper would be useful) with your ear on the handle - you should hear it clicking. If it DOES click then you don't have enough fuel pressure if it is not spraying fuel - that then puts you back into the pump. You said it sprays fuel - are you confident that you have 45psi there? It's easiest to check as I described - simply unplug the return hose quick connect fitting - the top one. (the original male hose fitting would have been a plastic one with a valve - the valve would have to be depressed to open - however this should have been replaced under recall with a metal one and those have no valve) To properly check the fuel pressure, the fuel circuit needs to be complete as the regulator is after the return fitting - a pressure gauge then needs to be tee'd off either of the hoses.

One other check - I can't tell whether your model has a ground block or not - they changed the grounding scheme somewhere along that first model year, my understanding is the very earliest do not have the ground block which is a common failure point. This is a common grounding buss where all the systems' grounds come together - it is located just in front of the battery box, sometimes is encased in foam. The block gets burned and some circuits lose their ground - this can even affect the ECU. So look to see if you have one, if so remove the cap and inspect for burning

 

[1997 t595i]

The interlocks for crank and 'run' are different:
For starter, only interlock is the clutch switch
In order for engine to run, it needs to see Neutral OR Side-stand-up - I just suggest to raise the side-stand as it simply eliminates the neutral switch as a possible factor

However ..... the Coils and the Fuel Pump get their +!2V from the same source, what is actually designated as the Fuel Pump Relay (but it does actually also supply the ignition coils) - this relay is what would be shut off by ECU in event of the neutral/side-stand interlock being made: so fact that you have pump run & ignition pulses suggest that the interlock is satisfied.

The injectors get their +12V from the main power relay - that also enables the ECU so you would have to believe that should also be good - but you should validate that you do indeed have 12V on the Brown/Pink wires on each of the injector plugs with respect to battery negative (there should also be an unused junior timer connector in that same harness that has a brown/pink and yellow/red wire - you can also just check for the 12V there on the brown/pink - but again with respect to battery negative NOT to the Yellow/Red); all of those should be 12V with ignition on.

If you confirm the 12V is there, next check to see if the injectors are actually firing - put a screw-driver against the solenoid and crank the engine (helper would be useful) with your ear on the handle - you should hear it clicking. If it DOES click then you don't have enough fuel pressure if it is not spraying fuel - that then puts you back into the pump. You said it sprays fuel - are you confident that you have 45psi there? It's easiest to check as I described - simply unplug the return hose quick connect fitting - the top one. (the original male hose fitting would have been a plastic one with a valve - the valve would have to be depressed to open - however this should have been replaced under recall with a metal one and those have no valve) To properly check the fuel pressure, the fuel circuit needs to be complete as the regulator is after the return fitting - a pressure gauge then needs to be tee'd off either of the hoses.

One other check - I can't tell whether your model has a ground block or not - they changed the grounding scheme somewhere along that first model year, my understanding is the very earliest do not have the ground block which is a common failure point. This is a common grounding buss where all the systems' grounds come together - it is located just in front of the battery box, sometimes is encased in foam. The block gets burned and some circuits lose their ground - this can even affect the ECU. So look to see if you have one, if so remove the cap and inspect for burning

I finally managed to get some time away from my kids and was able to work on the bike.

This is what I learned:

• there is 12 V at each injector
• all injectors rattle / click when bike is being cranked over
• bike fires on ether instantly
• cranks and fires with sidestand up or down
• neutral light is bright green with no flicker or dimming

The wiring harness appears good. I found what I think is the ground block, although the cap on it is white, not blue as shown in your photo. There is no sign of burning on or inside this cap. (Please see attached photo.) I am unsure if this is the ground block as my bike is a very early production number,(Manufacturered 02/97, last 5 digits of the VIN are 50339.), so perhaps it doesn't have the ground block?

I've also confirmed that there is no variance in voltage between the battery ground and by grounding it out on a head bolt. My understanding is that is an indicator that the harness grounds are good.

I'm going to go and get a fuel pressure tester and t into the line to see if the $20 aftermarket fuel pump I bought off of eBay is putting out 45 psi.

Is there anything else you can think of? Thanks again for the advice. I'm looking forward to getting this bike on the road. It has 34K km on it and I only paid $800 Canadian for the bike so it will be a steal of a deal for me providing I can get it to work.

 

[DEcosse]

That's not the ground block, it's the Alarm connector

If the injectors are clicking, and it starts on Ether, then it suggests a fuel delivery issue to the fuel rail & you need to validate your pump operation - even if you had some flow, you need to be sure you are getting full pressure

You can also remove the fuel rail from the bracket, leave the injectors in the rail but pulled from the TB's and see if the injectors spray when you crank it.

 

[1997 t595i]

That's not the ground block, it's the Alarm connector

If the injectors are clicking, and it starts on Ether, then it suggests a fuel delivery issue to the fuel rail & you need to validate your pump operation - even if you had some flow, you need to be sure you are getting full pressure

You can also remove the fuel rail from the bracket, leave the injectors in the rail but pulled from the TB's and see if the injectors spray when you crank it.

Boy do I feel DUMB.

After cleaning and bench testing each injector, I still had no start up. So I went and rechecked the ignition system. I swear that it passed a visual spark check months ago but ...

No spark on 1 or 3. Intermittant on 2.

Nothing over 0.5 volts on the ignition leads when cranking engine on 1 and 3. #2 is getting 10.2 volts.

Resistance on each coil is 0.6 ohms.

No ground block on this early production run T595.

Also, I took apart and cleaned the contact points on the kill and ignition switches. They all look good. Also tried starting with sidestand up. Voltages remain the same.

Pinched wires? Faulty ECM? Something else?

Thanks for your past advice. I sure hope that you may have a little more for me. Stay healthy during this Coronavirus outbreak.

 

[1997 t595i]

EDIT: Continuity on the uncommon wires from the ECM connection to each coil pack are good as is the msin ground to the ECM. Will check the common wire COIL PACK > FUEL PUMP RELAY > ECM RELAY > ECM paths tomorrow and test those new Hella relays I bought as well.

 

[feisal191]

That's not the ground block, it's the Alarm connector If the injectors are clicking, and it starts on Ether, then it suggests a fuel delivery issue to the fuel rail & you need to validate your pump operation - even if you had some flow, you need to be sure you are getting full pressure You can also remove the fuel rail from the bracket, leave the injectors in the rail but pulled from the TB's and see if the injectors spray when you crank it.

Dear DEcosse, I can see that you are rather professional on these T595, so maybe you are able to help me as I have some issues with my beloved 1999 Daytona (955i). So the problem is with the starting. As I try to turn on the ignition, the fuelpump primes, neutral light comes to the dash as bright green. But the problem is, that the idle steppermotor doesn`t do the trick (doesn`t move at all). I have changed the steppermotor it self, so I´m complitely sure that the problem is not in the steppermotor itself. I´m able to start the bike if I spray some starting liquid to air intake, so I´m pretty sure that the problem is with the air/breething side of the bike. I have been trying to solve the problem with repairbook + the tune-ecu program, but I think this is dead-end. So the long story short, the question is: 1. What might be the problem? 2. What part of the bike gives commands to steppermotor via ECM, that in what position steppermotor should be as I start the bike? With best regards, Sad Triumph owner from Finland.

 

[PaulM]

You will not get a reply from DEcosse. He has not been on this forum for a while see his profile below.

DEcosse
Staff member Super Moderator Premium Member Triumph of the Month
Super Moderator · From Pleasanton CA
Joined Feb 13, 2005
Last seen Oct 25, 2022